It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

100 per cent English?

page: 1
0

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 01:12 PM
link   
Channel 4 are running this show tonight at 8pm tonight.


Take eight people. All of them born in England. All of them white. All of them convinced they are 100% English. Convince them to provide a sample of their DNA. Then submit it to a series of state of the art DNA tests; and some of them will be in for a shock when they discover just how English they really are.

"I was born in England. I was born English, my parents were English, my grandparents were English and their parents were English and it goes back and back, so I am English through and through," says comedian Danny Blue.

A prime-minister's daughter, a peer of the realm, a tabloid journalist, a lawyer, a country lady, a trainee soldier, a stand-up comic and a woman who works in the fishing industry: all of them are convinced they come from solid Anglo-Saxon stock. With the help of cutting edge DNA analysis, 100% English reveals the secrets of their hidden origins which cover most of the globe.

Lord Tebbit, Garry Bushell and Carol Thatcher are among the eight participants who have agreed to place their genetic make-up under the microscope. Art-critic and expert in British culture Andrew Graham-Dixon presents this enlightening exploration of what it means to be English.

So confident are some of the participants of their genetic origins, they explain in great detail to Andrew what they believe makes someone truly English. For one country lady, you must be 'flaxen-haired' while Grimsby resident Nicola Hale says you must be able to trace your family back at least 1,000 years and pub comedian Danny Blue decrees that to claim to be truly English you can't have black skin.

Uncovering the truth of their ancestry culminates in some surprising results as DNA testing reveals some of them to have Turkish, Ukrainian, African and even Chinese origins.
Genealogical traces unearth potential links for some of the participants to notorious historical figures such as Genghis Khan and ethnic groups such as the Romany gypsies.

With issues of ethnic and national identity foremost in Government policy and public thinking, 100% English challenges the core beliefs of those who believe they are archetypal Englishmen and women with fascinating results.

www.channel4.com...

- Sounds fascinating.

I'll post a link when I can find the show on bittorrent.

In the meantime the debate over what actually constitutes 100% or 'pure' anything arises again.
Science provides the interesting answers but will the "I'm 100% *whatever*!" lot ever listen?

mod edit: changed normal quote tags to external quote tags

Quote Reference (review link)

[edit on 13-11-2006 by UK Wizard]




posted on Nov, 23 2006 @ 10:44 AM
link   
For those lucky enough to have made it in so far this is, naturally, available on UKNova here.

For others it's also now available on Demonoid here as a 370mb bittorrent download.

(........and it's a perfectly legal download too
)

I really recommend a look at this one.

My giving some of the results doesn't spoil the show because, as always, it's the people concerned being interviewed before and after giving their comment and reactions that are the most interesting part
(and surely anyone, besides the ignorant and bigoted, with the slightest grasp of population flows in Europe, if not the world, could have guessed just how this a lot of this was likely to turn out).

The DNA investigation took the form of 2 tests.

The first was a 'global test' able to identify the 4 main global types -
1) North American (including Siberian Russian)
2) East Asian
3) European
4) Sub-Saharan African

Following this there was a 2nd 'European test' to identify these common Euro traits and groupings -
1) Northern European
2) South Eastern European
3) Middle Eastern
4) South Asian

It makes for very interesting (if sometimes disturbing) viewing.
The obvious low-level racism expressed when some of the people interviewed attempt to try and convey what being English actually means is not pleasant.
Jane Phillips for instance even though feeling herself so English as to lay flowers at the spot where Harold fell in 1066 couldn't actually define it
(although possibly this was an inarticulate moment just for the camera.......quite often with these people one of the first things out of their mouths is 'well you have to be white'.......

......the idea that black people have been in England since probably long before the Romans and certainly during Roman times has obviously passed these types completely by).

Here are some of (but not all of) the results.

Gary Bushell (ex Sun columnist and one campaigning to have St Georges day elevated beyond it's current significance) turned out to have 92% Euro genes and 8% sub-Saharan which plainly came as a shock to him.

Carol Thatcher was 100% Euro on the global test but on the 2nd test was 76% Northern European and 24% Middle Eastern.
Again quite a shock to her.

Jane Phillips (a lawyer campaigning to have English recognised as an ethnic group and connected with some 'English' political groups) was so upset with her results that she threatened the program with legal action!
She had a low Norther European score (according to the expert quoted this was less than half what would be expected from a typical northern European).
Her Middle Eastern score was apparantly 4 times the average.
She was told to look for relatively recent ancestry from the Ukraine, Georgia or Armenia.
In fact the expert concluded that had he been doing a blind test he'd have said he was looking at the DNA of a Romany Gypsy.

Norman Tebbit (MR Cricket Test himself) was 100% Euro on the global test with 69% Northern European and 31% from South Eastern Europe - in fact the expect described this as so typical as to be "boring".

Lastly Danny Blue (a fairly low level comedian) was tested.
He had begun by making some outrageous claims about who could and who could not be considered English.
For instance Ian Wright (a black footballer who has played for the England football team and who was born in England and known to be very patriotic) could not be English according to him......and he went on further to say any black person no matter how many generations were born in England couldn't be English.
He turned out to have the most diverse DNA of the lot.
100% European on the global test but only 42% Norther European, 37% Southern European, 11% South Asian and 10% Middle Eastern.
He was very shocked.
He admitted this turned his previous views completely upside-down.
Credit to him though, when presented with this information he did change his tune.
Admittedly to one of claiming you need 4 generation to be considered English but it was a start!



posted on Dec, 8 2006 @ 02:59 PM
link   
Yes I watched this but came away not really sure if this had something to say or was desperate to get it's own agenda across. The implied inference seemed to be that unlss your DNA is almost 100% English/European you ought to keep your mouth shut on issues nationalistic as you have no right to practice or speak up for your own cultural interests (Norman T would be perfectly justified though).

Clever how they cherry picked the candidates to represent the worst or at the least most highly dubious examples of national pride to further that tired old political cliche about little englanders but in the end it was all meaningless as you could apply this test to probably 95% of the globe and come up with much the same conclusions, ie the human race is a mongrel race and cultural identity is far more potent than genetic inheritance.

For the record I'm almost totally of celtic Irish extraction (as far as I know), was born and bought up in England, consider myself English, very proud of that cultural inheritance and see no dichotomy between being white/black/yellow and English. It's culture not skin colour that counts.



posted on Dec, 8 2006 @ 06:42 PM
link   

Originally posted by ubermunche
The implied inference seemed to be that unlss your DNA is almost 100% English/European you ought to keep your mouth shut on issues nationalistic as you have no right to practice or speak up for your own cultural interests (Norman T would be perfectly justified though).


- Honestly ubermunche that is absolutely not what I took to be the 'message' or point to be at all.

It was all about the absurdity of that tiny group who wander among us claiming 100% English 'purity' which they then take as licence to claim ownership on 'Englishness'
(and use that to begin saying who was and who wasn't and start determining what that 'Englishness' meant).


in the end it was all meaningless


- I couldn't disagree more.

In fact you yourself state the obvious and true point of it all later with this comment -

as you could apply this test to probably 95% of the globe and come up with much the same conclusions, ie the human race is a mongrel race


- Quite.


cultural identity is far more potent than genetic inheritance.


- That maybe so but what we don't need is a gang of half-wits who use a ridiculous claim to 'ownership' of that 'culture' (and who will often make absurd statements about ethnicity) and reckon they have the say on this determining the 'rules' of who's in - and more importantly perhaps, who's out.......especially when by their own 'standard' they aren't even what they claim to be.



posted on Dec, 8 2006 @ 10:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Honestly ubermunche that is absolutely not what I took to be the 'message' or point to be at all.

It was all about the absurdity of that tiny group who wander among us claiming 100% English 'purity' which they then take as licence to claim ownership on 'Englishness'
(and use that to begin saying who was and who wasn't and start determining what that 'Englishness' meant).


I think that was exactly the point the programme laboured to get across, wheel out a few crypto racists, let them rant on, watch them squirm and by definition this is 'English nationalism'. Covert and simplistic and designed to make us all uncomfortable about our own ideas of Englishness.




- I couldn't disagree more.

In fact you yourself state the obvious and true point of it all later with this comment - as you could apply this test to probably 95% of the globe and come up with much the same conclusions, ie the human race is a mongrel race


Meaningless in that the programme seemed to be levelled specifically against the idea of 'Englishness' rather than 'Scottishness' or 'Algerianness' or 'Native Americaness' and prohibitive against the idea of the former being able to examine and celebrate it's cultural identity wheareas the latter would be encouraged to do so. Yet the argument applies equally to all. What gives?






- That maybe so but what we don't need is a gang of half-wits who use a ridiculous claim to 'ownership' of that 'culture' (and who will often make absurd statements about ethnicity) and reckon they have the say on this determining the 'rules' of who's in - and more importantly perhaps, who's out.......especially when by their own 'standard' they aren't even what they claim to be.



Which is why the programme should have made more effort to examine and display a more accurate portrayal of English nationalism rather than this petty, narrow minded, and destructive cliche. The whole thing reeks of outdated liberal, self loathing, angst and needs to get itself up to date. It was a bore....and a predictable one at that.



posted on Dec, 9 2006 @ 08:48 AM
link   

Originally posted by ubermunche
wheel out a few crypto racists, let them rant on, watch them squirm and by definition this is 'English nationalism'.


- Naaa, I didn't see anywhere where the program claimed 'This is English Nationalism'.

It was just a version of 'English nationalism'.......and let's be honest that or something close to it is probably the most common form anyone might encounter today (although 'if at all' as thankfully people that talk like that are clearly a small minority).

They're a perfectly legitimate 'target' in the current climate......and you can hardly claim the program was packed-out with idiot BNP types, the spread of the 'type of participant' was fairly broad, given the limitations of a one hour TV show.


Covert and simplistic and designed to make us all uncomfortable about our own ideas of Englishness.


- Once again naaaaaa.
It came across loud and clear; it's just purely about that type of 'Englishness'....which is by no means anything like most everybody else's.


Meaningless in that the programme seemed to be levelled specifically against the idea of 'Englishness' rather than 'Scottishness' or 'Algerianness' or 'Native Americaness' and prohibitive against the idea of the former being able to examine and celebrate it's cultural identity wheareas the latter would be encouraged to do so.


- Well, ok, that might be what it said to you but it didn't to me.

It was a program shot for an audience that (given the make-up of the UK) was mainly English or connected by familial links to the English.
It was no surprise to me that it had nothing to do with any other 'nationality' or 'ethnicity'.
Why should it have had, it was about a vocal and contemporary version of English nationalism
(as well as being a valid intelligent scientific retort to the kind of ignorant racist view that might still talk about and see great significance in large groups of people being '100% 'pure' *whatever*'?
The days of the idiot politics of 'racial purity' are long over, thankfully.

There's nothing stopping people doing a similar examination of irrational Scot, Welsh or Irish - or Native American - but by their very nature the audience that these might appeal to in the UK is much much smaller and so such a program is unlikely to be funded (this was after-all broadcast on a commercial British TV station, Channel 4).

It's not a secret plot, it's simply commercial reality.


Which is why the programme should have made more effort to examine and display a more accurate portrayal of English nationalism rather than this petty, narrow minded, and destructive cliche.


- You can only work with what you have got.

The sad truth is that with few exceptions that sort of "petty, narrow minded, and destructive cliche" typifies the bulk of 'English nationalism' in it's current state. IMO.


The whole thing reeks of outdated liberal, self loathing, angst and needs to get itself up to date.


- ....and thrice naaaaaa.

Like I said ubermunche, if that is how it is then that is how it is.....and it is.

'Liberals' didn't script these people.

I don't see anything "self loathing" about putting the spotlight on those who use a cultural identity as a cover for their petty racism.
Far from it in fact, it is a valuable part of reclaiming Englishness from these embarrassing morons.
There's nothing angst-ridden about having the bravery to let these guys have their platform and make a t*t of themselves on national TV.

......and sadly, as the (albeit small) 'rise' of that kind lumpen nationalism we see in the BNP shows, it is far from out-of date.


It was a bore....and a predictable one at that.


- Like I said, you can only work with the material to hand.



[edit on 9-12-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 06:21 AM
link   
This is what I've said on numerous threads before, so I am not surprised.

However........ (there is always one with me..sorry)

Firstly, the Gene's tested could easily be found in 2 or more populations. It is not exactly conclusive. Just because one population group exhibits certain genetic traits, does not mean another will not either.

I would take this programme as indicative of the genetic makeup and nothing more. It merely points that there is the possibility of inter-racial mixing going on.

Secondly, I agree with ubermunche that this does appear to smack of the old "English=Racist" label which we have tried hard (and largely succeeded) in getting rid of.

Only recently has it been good to be proud, rather than being labelled along with the morons from the BNP.

We in England do not get the same "racial" benefits as any other in the Union. We do not have our own assembly/Parliament for starters. We are villified as the bad boys in the Union and to proud to be English is to be a racist. everyone else "celebrates" their culture, but to celebrate England is still somehow bad... Why?

Why did the programme not focus on "Britishness"? They could have taken 1 Irishman, 1 Welshman, 1 Scot and 1 Englishman. That would have been much fairer and would have made a more interesting programme.

After all, it is the British National Party, not the English national Party....

EDIT: Just to clarify, I actually view myself as Cornish. My family has been traced back to ancient times and we have some Irish in us too.

[edit on 10/12/06 by stumason]



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 01:02 PM
link   

- Naaa, I didn't see anywhere where the program claimed 'This is English Nationalism'.


But you then go on to say….


It was just a version of 'English nationalism'.......and let's be honest that or something close to it is probably the most common form anyone might encounter today.


So basically we’ve made our minds up that this IS what English nationalism boils down to, or is that directed at all nationalism, strangely I don’t notice these accusations being bandied about on issues concerning….say Scottish nationalism/devolution.


- Once again naaaaaa.
It came across loud and clear; it's just purely about that type of 'Englishness'....which is by no means anything like most everybody else's.


It did nothing of the sort. It threw away a perfectly good opportunity to examine ideas of English nationalism and how it translates for a 21st C, multi ethnic UK. Instead it wheels out Gary Bushell, that weren’t deliberate was it.


as well as being a valid intelligent scientific retort to the kind of ignorant racist view that might still talk about and see great significance in large groups of people being '100% 'pure' *whatever*'?
The days of the idiot politics of 'racial purity' are long over, thankfully.


The vast majority of people view ‘Englishness’ as a cultural entity not a racial one.


There's nothing stopping people doing a similar examination of irrational Scot, Welsh or Irish - or Native American - but by their very nature the audience that these might appeal to in the UK is much much smaller and so such a program is unlikely to be funded (this was after-all broadcast on a commercial British TV station, Channel 4).

It's not a secret plot, it's simply commercial reality.


So singling out one cultural group for misrepresentation is perfectly fine as long as it’s financially viable. Stumason was right in calling for a programme that addressed ideas of Britishness, it would have been fairer and quiet a lot of Scots and Welsh would’ve been in for a nasty shock too. The truth is the one group who, more than any other, are primed to accept and practice a more fluid tolerant form of nationalism are the English.



- You can only work with what you have got.

The sad truth is that with few exceptions that sort of "petty, narrow minded, and destructive cliche" typifies the bulk of 'English nationalism' in it's current state. IMO.


To echo your words Smickey NAAAAAA. The oft claimed accusation that the media twists and manipulates things to it’s own end does not die a death simply because, on this issue, you and they agree. And again you’ve reiterated your own beliefs about what English nationalism amounts too. You need to catch up it’s changed and continues to change.


'Liberals' didn't script these people.


No but they put a piece of spin on the programme worthy of one of Mao’s cultural revolution denouncement meetings.



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 05:33 PM
link   
It was a great program, and I enjoyed watching the attitudes of some of the participants change.

Personally, I'm fascinated to know more about my own ancestral makeup, but the £250 fee is a bit steep!

www.dnadiagnostics.co.uk...



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 06:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by ubermunche
So basically we’ve made our minds up that this IS what English nationalism boils down to


- You seem to be confusing my own personal opinion against what the show said here.

I can quite rightly state that the show itself did not at any point claim they were showing 'English nationalism today'.

But I can also go on to express my own opinion, as I did, that it was my own view that, when you hear it expressed, that kind of narrow minded etc mindset is close to or often the version of English nationalism on view.

They're not mutually exclusive views.


So singling out one cultural group for misrepresentation is perfectly fine as long as it’s financially viable.


- I really don't think they did that.

I think they undoubtedly put a certain minority view (but not an entirely unseen or unknown one) under the spotlight, quite fairly.


Stumason was right in calling for a programme that addressed ideas of Britishness


- That may come at some point - personally I hope it does.....one of the interesting things about the UK's large and growing amount of DNA data now collected might some sort of public information - a program perhaps? - detailing what they are finding
(afterall things like 'averages' and 'usual findings' were often mentioned briefly but only in passing on the show).

But right now, with the recent supposed rise of a more visible 'Englishness', why not have this kind of show on this type of Englishness?


it would have been fairer and quiet a lot of Scots and Welsh would’ve been in for a nasty shock too.


- Well the thing is that I don't think anybody (except the irrational loon element - of whatever nationality) would find this stuff 'shocking' really.

It might be a surprise perhaps (when one finds one has indisputable proof of Middle Eastern or Asian genetic linkage) but I really don't imagine anyone but the really ignorant finding this stuff that shocking.

It's just a very pleasant spin-off that it so thoroughly kicks all seven shades out of the ignorant lumpen 'racial purity' mentality.


The oft claimed accusation that the media twists and manipulates things to it’s own end does not die a death simply because, on this issue, you and they agree.


- ....and neither does an accuarate and correct recognition of instances media twisting and manipulation mean that it is happening in every single instance of media output, either.


.....and what?


No but they put a piece of spin on the programme worthy of one of Mao’s cultural revolution denouncement meetings.


- We'll just have to agree to disagree on this then.


Originally posted by nowthenlookhere
It was a great program, and I enjoyed watching the attitudes of some of the participants change.


- Totally agree.

I would also like to have seen more comment about the typical make-up geneticists are finding across the UK but, as I mentioned earlier, hopefully that will come in another show sometime.

It certainly is a fascinating topic.


Personally, I'm fascinated to know more about my own ancestral makeup, but the £250 fee is a bit steep!


- Yeah I'd love to have this done but that price-tag is just way too steep for a casual passing interest.



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 02:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

I can quite rightly state that the show itself did not at any point claim they were showing 'English nationalism today'.

But I can also go on to express my own opinion, as I did, that it was my own view that, when you hear it expressed, that kind of narrow minded etc mindset is close to or often the version of English nationalism on view.

They're not mutually exclusive views.


Well we will have to agree to differ. I do not think this leaden type of nationalism is the one held by most but I have my suspicions that it's the most exploited in certain quarters,


- Well the thing is that I don't think anybody (except the irrational loon element - of whatever nationality) would find this stuff 'shocking' really.


And this is the crux of the argument, the loon element exists in a minority of all nationalists but only ever seems to be highlighted or signposted when the English variety is examined and commented upon. You don't have to be a rocket scientists to have worked out there are some very ugly racist elements within Scots/Welsh nationalist circles too but that, until recently, has been treated as a bit of a joke and hardly ever examined when subjects like devolution arise.


It's just a very pleasant spin-off that it so thoroughly kicks all seven shades out of the ignorant lumpen 'racial purity' mentality.


And on that I very much agree with you...my God we agree lol.



- ....and neither does an accuarate and correct recognition of instances media twisting and manipulation mean that it is happening in every single instance of media output, either.


.....and what?


But in this instance it was pretty obvious, again a failed chance to oust the loons and go on to examine the more valid issues but the programme decided to just stay put and laugh at the loons instead.



new topics

top topics



 
0

log in

join