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Chinese sub surprises 7th fleet, within range of sinking the Kitty Hawk.

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posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 04:32 AM
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U.S. Pacific Fleet Commander visits [chinese] Marine Corps


This incident seems to have died down fast




posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:00 AM
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um.....our sub meet us carrier fleet and rise above the water(international water)
in case the GI on board think we gona attack them first(god knows how they always like to think so, been attacked by someone else, been a victim,etc etc) and what's wrong with it?

american's logic is like old european countries logic before WWI they all think others might want to attack it....like they slagutering native americans they think they may harm them so why not we clean the threat? tbh this is disgusting x(



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
The US admiral, William J. Fallon, actually indicated that if the Americans were looking for a submarine, there could have been "could well have escalated into something that was very unforeseen". The interuptation of that is very simple.


Oh and what interpretation is that ?



How would one stop a fighter like soviet bear coming into soviet airspace. I do believe that if it was detected it would have been sunk


LOL, the US NAvy never shot down any soviet aircraft or sunk any Soviet Naval vessels even though they were detected within attack range many times during the Cold War.

So why would they sink the Chinese sub ? If the sub did attack the US Carrier then it would be an act of war and what would follow would dwarf a damaged carrier.
Also no doubt any attack on a foreign vessel during peacetime would have to be authorised by the president. SO basically they wouldn't bother sinking it at all, why start a war when one exists. Especially when you have so mnay consumables being made in China for your citizens.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
How would one stop a fighter like soviet bear coming into soviet airspace. I do believe that if it was detected it would have been sunk


there are many aggressive tactics that can be used to drive an hostile aircraft / vessel away , short of firing warshots at it - aiming to hit .

aircaft can be " bumped " - by flying over thier heads from behind @ VERY close range - and either dumping fuel or lighting the after burners

surface vessels can be targeted with fire hoses , searchlights etc - firing flares at thier general direction and using smoke generators - and escort vessels will approac them on a collision couse from a heading that gives them " right of way " under maritime laws of the sea - leveing the offending vessel with the option of turning away or being rammed - and responsible for the accident .

submarines will find themselves under a barrage of active sonar pings , and find that nixies [ a type of noise making countermeasure ] are dropped in thier vicinity to swamp the filters on thier hydrophones - so that they cannot get any usefull data about thier enemies noise signitures .

all that aggro - without firing a shot in anger



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
LOL, the US NAvy never shot down any soviet aircraft or sunk any Soviet Naval vessels even though they were detected within attack range many times during the Cold War.

So why would they sink the Chinese sub ? If the sub did attack the US Carrier then it would be an act of war and what would follow would dwarf a damaged carrier.
Also no doubt any attack on a foreign vessel during peacetime would have to be authorised by the president. SO basically they wouldn't bother sinking it at all, why start a war when one exists. Especially when you have so mnay consumables being made in China for your citizens.


If you look you will find that under international law a submerged submarine approaching a warship can legally be sunk. This law was placed into effect after WWI. The Chinese sub commander did a very smart thing. He surfaced and identified himself. Not only did he save his ship, his Navy gets a propaganda victory as well. I'm not sure of the exact distance that they are allowed to sink a submerged sub, but considering that 10,000 yards is considered short range for a torpedo shot, five miles might be about right.

I just wonder where Seawolf and Ashville were during this time? My bet is that one of them was about 10,000 yards behind the Chinese sub.

Don't be so sure about a ship or sub being sunk during the Cold War. I personally know of at least one (it wasn't Soviet) that was sunk.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 11:10 AM
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The kitty hawk CBG has a seawolf??!!



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
The kitty hawk CBG has a seawolf??!!


yes !

here is a [ lage ] picture of the entire CBG " in formation "

image file



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by ignorant_ape

Originally posted by Daedalus3
The kitty hawk CBG has a seawolf??!!


yes !

here is a [ lage ] picture of the entire CBG " in formation "

image file


Awesome picture! I just set it as my default wallpaper.

Haze gray and underway........



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499

Don't be so sure about a ship or sub being sunk during the Cold War. I personally know of at least one (it wasn't Soviet) that was sunk.


Yup...agree...me too. THey did a whale of a coverup job on it too...unto this very day.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999

Yup...agree...me too. THey did a whale of a coverup job on it too...unto this very day.

Thanks,
Orangetom


Which one are you referring to? I believe that the Soviets sank the Threasher and I know the US sank a Foxtrot in the Med in 1986.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:16 PM
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JIMC5499,

I would disagree, I don't think the submarines were in position to see the sub, otherwise I don't know that we ever would have heard the story. I have a feeling if the story leaked and we were on their tail, that detail would have been mentioned.

What is interesting is, there was a PHOTOEX taking place at some point around the time the sub incident took place, makes you wonder if the subs, who were apart of the PHOTOEX, were out of position at the wrong time.

As for what sub it is, it was leaked originally by the Japanese that it was a Han, then backed off that comment. The Aussies said it was a Yuan (and some still think it was btw), and the Washington Times was the only source saying it was a 'Song.' Considering it surfaced, there are surely photo's that would verify, too bad we will never see those photos.

The Song is not AIP, so I have no idea how it could get there without the snorkal, so surely there were oppertunties missed to detect it (if indeed it was never tracked).

When it is all said and done, we really don't know enough to figure out what actually happened, so I always start by assuming the worst, namely that the US ASW capabilities are well behind where they need to be, and start from there.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by darksided
JIMC5499,

I would disagree, I don't think the submarines were in position to see the sub, otherwise I don't know that we ever would have heard the story. I have a feeling if the story leaked and we were on their tail, that detail would have been mentioned.

What is interesting is, there was a PHOTOEX taking place at some point around the time the sub incident took place, makes you wonder if the subs, who were apart of the PHOTOEX, were out of position at the wrong time.


Who's to say that there were only two US subs in the area? Two are usually assigned to a CVBG, but remember they were participating in exercises. Somebody had to be the Opposing force. I spent 5 years in an ASW squadron and have a pretty good idea how things work.

The US Navy's ASW capability is just fine.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Yup...agree...me too. THey did a whale of a coverup job on it too...unto this very day.

Thanks,
Orangetom


Which one are you referring to? I believe that the Soviets sank the Threasher and I know the US sank a Foxtrot in the Med in 1986.


Negative on the Threasher...this boat was a sea trial accident and cause the coming about of the SUBSAFE program...long over due and badly needed. A "MAJOR" overhaul of the Submarine construction program standards.

I am refering to the Scorpion. I remember seeing this even on television as a kid just after it happened. The little ditto screen kept scrolling across the bottom of the screen recalling sailors back to port for immediate deployment. It was some days later before it was announced to the public that we had lost this boat.
There was even many many years later a Two full page spread in the local newspaper explaining the theory of what happened to her. THe runaway torpedo story. I read this two page spread and realized that this is what they wanted the public to think. You dont take out a two page spread...unless it it the official party line. Two full pages for a day is not cheap.

Yes I know we sank some of the Soviet boats ..particularly in Chicken of the Sea type accidents where we were following to close. One of them right here off the US Coast. A boomer if I recall. I remember seeing picturse of this soviet boat on the surface with part of the missle hatch clamshell gone. This could only have been done in a collision. She sank shortly after that .

Thanks for some great posts here Gentlemen,
Gott shove off for now.

Orangetom



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Yup...agree...me too. THey did a whale of a coverup job on it too...unto this very day.

Thanks,
Orangetom


Which one are you referring to? I believe that the Soviets sank the Threasher and I know the US sank a Foxtrot in the Med in 1986.


Negative on the Threasher...this boat was a sea trial accident and cause the coming about of the SUBSAFE program...long over due and badly needed. A "MAJOR" overhaul of the Submarine construction program standards.

I am refering to the Scorpion. I remember seeing this even on television as a kid just after it happened. The little ditto screen kept scrolling across the bottom of the screen recalling sailors back to port for immediate deployment. It was some days later before it was announced to the public that we had lost this boat.
There was even many many years later a Two full page spread in the local newspaper explaining the theory of what happened to her. THe runaway torpedo story. I read this two page spread and realized that this is what they wanted the public to think. You dont take out a two page spread...unless it it the official party line. Two full pages for a day is not cheap.

Yes I know we sank some of the Soviet boats ..particularly in Chicken of the Sea type accidents where we were following to close. One of them right here off the US Coast. A boomer if I recall. I remember seeing picturse of this soviet boat on the surface with part of the missle hatch clamshell gone. This could only have been done in a collision. She sank shortly after that .

Thanks for some great posts here Gentlemen,
Gott shove off for now.

Orangetom



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Yes I know we sank some of the Soviet boats ..particularly in Chicken of the Sea type accidents where we were following to close. One of them right here off the US Coast. A boomer if I recall. I remember seeing picturse of this soviet boat on the surface with part of the missle hatch clamshell gone. This could only have been done in a collision. She sank shortly after that .

Thanks for some great posts here Gentlemen,
Gott shove off for now.

Orangetom


This Foxtrot ate two Mk-46 torpedos dropped from a Sea King helicopter. Four bodies and some debris were recovered.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
The wash times article says that US officials declined to comment:



A Pacific Command spokesman declined to comment on the incident, saying details were classified. Pentagon spokesmen also declined to comment.
source


do you have a source on the decline warset?



jczs.news.sina.com.cn...

this is the news article, written in chinese, reporting that the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs in response, claims the report from the washintimes to be false, no such incident has happened.
it was on SINA.com.cn yesterday's headline.


currently they are having a naval exchange program; a joint search and rescue excercise will be held on 19th



I suspect the washtintimes was just one of those "reminders" for americans not to be friendly with chinese people, and a "reminder" that the US navy can never cooperate with PLAN and to neutralize the constructive effort people put in trying to understand eachother by helding exchange programs.
just another one of the typical western media moves.

[edit on 11/17/2006 by warset]



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
I am refering to the Scorpion. I remember seeing this even on television as a kid just after it happened. The little ditto screen kept scrolling across the bottom of the screen recalling sailors back to port for immediate deployment. It was some days later before it was announced to the public that we had lost this boat.


Do you actually hvae anything to back you up or is this just your opinion. I would like to see at least oe fact which backs up what you say.



Yes I know we sank some of the Soviet boats ..particularly in Chicken of the Sea type accidents where we were following to close. One of them right here off the US Coast. A boomer if I recall. I remember seeing picturse of this soviet boat on the surface with part of the missle hatch clamshell gone. This could only have been done in a collision. She sank shortly after that .


Really only done in a collision ? From what I heard the hatch wasn't air tight and sea water leaked into the missile compartment where it reacted with leaking rocket fuel causing an explosion.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499
If you look you will find that under international law a submerged submarine approaching a warship can legally be sunk. This law was placed into effect after WWI. The Chinese sub commander did a very smart thing. He surfaced and identified himself.


I hvae looked and can find no such law, please post where this is.

Doing a smart thing. Why would he surface at all, if he was any good he would have escaped without being esposed. He surfaced purely to score a propaganda victory nothing more.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by rogue1
I hvae looked and can find no such law, please post where this is.

Doing a smart thing. Why would he surface at all, if he was any good he would have escaped without being esposed. He surfaced purely to score a propaganda victory nothing more.


I am fairly certain that it was enacted by the League of Nations after WWI. As to the specifics I am uncertain. I do know that it was used as justification to harass Soviet subs during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The Chinese government is now saying that there was no such incident as the one we are discussing. When I say the Commander was smart he may have had a hunch that he might have been detected. By surfacing like he did he made the entire incident work in his favor. If it happened.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by rogue1
Oh and what interpretation is that ?


"could well have escalated into something that was very unforeseen"

Use Dictionary.com


LOL, the US NAvy never shot down any soviet aircraft or sunk any Soviet Naval vessels even though they were detected within attack range many times during the Cold War.


Yes, they have they actively engaged all of them when they were first detected. Ask how much Tu-95 pilots were forced to turn around. OR do you suggest that the carrier lets ALL craft go past them at will because its "peacetime"?

Another one where the use of the rules of engament
en.wikipedia.org...


There is an example of the US doing something which happened in the cold war. Depth charges and such





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