Red October Surfacing - Chinese Sub Stalks USS Kitty Hawk

Last month, on October 26th, the US Navy detected a Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine as it surfaced within 5 miles from the carrier fleet of USS Kitty Hawk. The lead of its class and the longest active status in the Navy with homeport in Yokosuka it is the only permanently forward-deployed aircraft carrier in the Western Pacific.
The submarine encounter with the Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships is an embarrassment to Adm. William J. Fallon, the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, who personally have put great efforts in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations between the two nations' militaries.
Disclosure of the incident comes as Adm. Gary Roughead, commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, is making his first visit to China. The four-star admiral have been scheduled to meet senior Chinese military leaders during the weeklong visit, which begun this weekend.




What does this incident mean? An attempt by the Chinese to "show the flag" or a challenge in the control of the Western Pacific. An alarming fact in that game is the massive build-up of naval power China has shown along with the ongoing modernization of her armed forces.

The Chinese subs of the new Song-class now numbers 40 to 50 and are equipped with sub-launched anti-ship missiles of own make and similar purchased from Russia. These long-range subs come both diesel- and nuclear-powered.

What are they up to? Preparing for a confrontation or just breaking a standoff. Taiwan is always on the agenda, and no matter how things will go, they know they're a coming superpower.

"The Chinese have made it clear that they understand the importance of the submarine in any kind of offensive or defensive strategy to deal with a military conflict," an intelligence official is quoted.


Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
China sub secretly stalked US carrier battle group


[edit on 13-11-2006 by khunmoon]

What this means to me is that this story needs confirmation from other sources besides Sun Myung Moonbat's dystopian rag and its parrots.

So this sub was shadowing the Kitty Hawk during a large US/Japanese naval exercise and they all failed to notice...uhhhh...yeah right, that's the ticket!

Thereafter, it's time for a jolly good round of tea and crumpets of course:
Chinese Officers to Tour U.S. Bases Forbes

I smell WaTi Moon gas...

[edit on 13-11-2006 by Regenmacher]

Sorry Rainmaker, I didn't knew the source was dubious. Fact when I clicked the link I thought it to be Washington Post. I did notice it wasn't as it came up.

I've searched for about an hour now, and I must admit no links in support of the story in question. Plenty though on Chinese subs stalking, but as they all are a bit outdated no sense in bringing them.

An interesting one I found on the naval excercises and the power balance in the Western Pacific was this one from, what I think is a reliable source. A snippet

"This naval exercise is the latest in a long series of multi-national naval exercises the U.S. Navy has conducted since the Cold War. This year, however, it occurs via the lens of increasing American and Asian anxiety about China's military expansion," said Richard Fisher III, a China analyst at the International Assessment and Strategy Center. "This exercise, as with many previous exercises, is meant first and foremost to affirm America's commitment to defending peace in Asia."

Read it all - though it also does credit Washington Times for...

A recent report about China's military nuclear strength jointly written by the Federation of American Scientists and the Natural Resources Defense Council has triggered an intense debate in Washington. What has caught people's eye is not the description of China's nuclear weapons in the report, but the attached photos taken from 2000 to 2004 by an American commercial satellite company to complement the report. The photos show the anchoring caves of China's Xia-class ballistic missile nuclear submarines and the submarine-launched JL-1 ballistic nuclear missiles stockpiled in the underwater tunnels.

[edit on 13-11-2006 by khunmoon]

This doesn't look to be a provoking move on China's part. If true it's more of a "Hey look what we can do now!!" to the USN. Before the Chinese navy was primarily a shallow water fleet and not one to project naval power so this is a surprise.

It is worrisome however that if true they have the capability to sneak up on an entire battlegroup, and with a diesel sub!! Maybe they just got lucky but something for the USN to look at for sure.

Originally posted by khunmoon
Taiwan is always on the agenda, and no matter how things will go, they know they're a coming superpower.

Haven't they always been a superpower? Sometimes, IMO, I think that they are the only real superpower the world has.

I also think the Chinese are pretty smart for accepting invitations to visit US facilities, but not offering to return the gesture.

Anybody want to consider that the Chinese sub was tracked? I know of at least 5 times that we let Soviet subs approach the carrier that I was on. We knew their exact location from passive sonar and had a helo with two warshot torpedoes directly above them at all times. If they opened a torpedo tube door or a missile hatch our orders were to drop our torpedoes immediatly.

This accomplished two things. First, we gathered information on the sub's tactics and capabilities. Second, we let them think that their capabilities were good enough to do this and that ours were bad enough to let them do this.

So the Navy takes a little black eye in the media, while gathering good information on this Chinese sub. Wouldn't be the first time.

And we do the exact same thing to them. It really is not much of a story....both they and us would be amiss if we didn't keep an eye on each others fleets. I thought it was standing policy (I know it was in the 70's when I was in) that each nuclear sub in the Soviet fleet was tracked, if not followed and they did the same thing.

[edit on 13-11-2006 by grover]

Doubt the Washington Times will release the source, if it was a US source then that is really bad, propaganda boys ain't going to like that. More that likely it was a Chinese source though I imagine.

A little bit of an embarrassment, but it isn't like the US doesn't have a load of subs following the Chinese.

Chinese always followed USN in shallow and coastal waters. The new here is it's in deep water on the high seas.

Posted by Madmaxb
It is worrisome however that if true they have the capability to sneak up on an entire battlegroup, and with a diesel sub!! Maybe they just got lucky but something for the USN to look at for sure.

Don't take for granted just because it's a diesel it will have noisy sonic profile. Todays technology in submarine propulsion features some of the most silent diesel-electric engines ever build. With the sonic tracking industry just behind. Fact is that the Song-class subs use a propeller system with skewed blades to make them pratically undetectable.

Here's a very interesting link on the technology of Chinese subs.

The SONG is a blend of Chinese and Western technology and has several key features that point to a major shift in diesel submarine design philosophy. It is the first Chinese submarine to have a skewed propeller. The SONG also is the first Chinese submarine designed to carry the developmental YJ-82, China’s first encapsulated ASCM capable of launching from a submerged submarine. SONGs are probably fitted with flank-array sonars of French design. Chinese diesel submarines are fitted with German MTU diesel engines.

As the incident is reported to have taken place more than two weeks ago, I think it is timed to surface now coinciding with the US commander's visit to Beijing.

Likely different fractions exits within the Forces in favour or against Sino-American coorperations.

Whose case the incident supports is not easy told.

Originally posted by khunmoon
Don't take for granted just because it's a diesel it will have noisy sonic profile. Todays technology in submarine propulsion features some of the most silent diesel-electric engines ever build. With the sonic tracking industry just behind. Fact is that the Song-class subs use a propeller system with skewed blades to make them pratically undetectable.

Don't bet on it. Ever hear of MAD? Sound isn't the only way to track a sub.

No, actually not JIMC. Except for the magazine.

Furthermore it means 'food' in my native language, thus making it pretty hard to google.

Tell me!

Originally posted by khunmoon
No, actually not JIMC. Except for the magazine.

Furthermore it means 'food' in my native language, thus making it pretty hard to google.

Tell me!

en.wikipedia.org...

A magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) is a piece of equipment that is used to detect minute variations in the Earth's magnetic field. The term refers specifically to magnetometers used either by military forces to detect submarines—such a mass of ferromagnetic material disturbs the magnetic field and can be detected—or to a geomagnetic survey instrument used to search for minerals by the disturbance of the normal earth-field.

This is what he is talking about.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
Anybody want to consider that the Chinese sub was tracked?

Good point JIM, it reminds me of the Iranian UAV story a while back, I tend to think this sub was being tacked probably being shadowed by a LA class at the time too. If this alleged incident had happened in shallow waters it could be possible but out in the deep blue I doubt it.

However what is worrying to me are the reports that our Pacific commander has, for political reasons, restricted intelligence gathering on China. WTF?


[edit on 13-11-2006 by WestPoint23]

This is what he is talking about.

MAD as I understand it is a very short-range technology, best used for pinpointing a sub that has already been detected (but not precisely located) by sonar.

It's pretty normal for subs to see how close they can get to other nations naval vessels, especially when there is a bit of rivalry involved. That they surfaced the sub is a signal: "look how close we can get". I don't find it hugely surprising, modern diesel-electrics are very quiet, no matter how good our ASW is, a good SSK commander can get very close indeed.

Originally posted by xmotex

This is what he is talking about.

MAD as I understand it is a very short-range technology, best used for pinpointing a sub that has already been detected (but not precisely located) by sonar.

You have that wrong. As a matter of fact it is the opposite. MAD is a way to sweep a large area fairly quickly. A MAD contact gives you a reason to target the area with sonar and sonarbuoys.

.......


Well.... I guess the hunter killer parked a few hundred yards off its arse is not going to be a deterrent at all?

I'm sorry, but there is no way on earth that this sub managed to get within this distance and not have a second shadow ready to drill it into history had they heard the tubes opening for a hostile act.

The USA /USSR /UK sub games were pretty hairy at times, and this type of game went on all the time.

The Russians actually used live depth charges many times on UK subs that were within hundreds of feet, not miles of a russian warship / vessel.... so, guess the yanks just need to break out a few live rounds every now and again as a back off signal...

This is war gaming, but it does show one thing. In the submarine world you only do this against one type of ship. Your enemies. Shows how the Chinese think of the USA....cold war Mk II any one?

The Kursk, the Russian submarine flagship, that unfortunately exploded on exercise killing all aboard, probably due to a Torpedo faulting, was known to have spent time in the Mediterranean, spying on the US ships there during the Kosovo war.

I will get a source for that.

edit - Wiki never fails en.wikipedia.org...

It is still strange however why this information is release? I suppose it could be bragging, but I would imagine that all parties would want to keep their own vulnerabilities from the general public. Although letting your own nation know what you can do would make some sense.


[edit on 13/11/06 by Strodyn]

Originally posted by Strodyn
It is still strange however why this information is release? I suppose it could be bragging, but I would imagine that all parties would want to keep their own vulnerabilities from the general public. Although letting your own nation know what you can do would make some sense.

In the US we have a group who seems to think that it is their right to make sure that everyone knows our military vulernabilities and secrets. It is called the news media.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
Anybody want to consider that the Chinese sub was tracked? I know of at least 5 times that we let Soviet subs approach the carrier that I was on. We knew their exact location from passive sonar and had a helo with two warshot torpedoes directly above them at all times. If they opened a torpedo tube door or a missile hatch our orders were to drop our torpedoes immediatly.

Yeah Jim I should have clarified my post. To me it is worrisome if the Chinese sub went untracked, obviously if it was a media scare story and the USN had it tracked then no sweat. I to have been stationed on a few carriers and everything that watched us we were already watching.

[edit on 23-11-2006 by Madmaxb]

[edit on 23-11-2006 by Madmaxb]

I'm gonna pull this up from the depths because I feel some people believe that it would be impossible for any country to get close enough to launch a missile as witnessed today.

4 years ago this happened! What makes some of you think it isn't possible today!