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China sub secretly stalked US carrier battle group

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posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 04:26 PM
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Talked to my dad about this, recently. Started with my mention of ShagHarbour.
He kind of chuckled and said, "That was a Russian sub". Quite off the intention of my line of questioning, but led to an interesting conversation.

Side note: my dad was a radioman in the U.S. Navy. Retired in '76, I think.

Anyway, I asked how he knew it was Russian. He said they always knew where their subs were, and knew to the boat, their hull numbers.

Ok, this is my dad. The guy I line-drived in the cod, first hard ball he ever pitched at me. Although I'm now ex-Army, we've never discussed stuff that
had bearing on our clearances. Just never approached it. He opened, so I asked.

How did you know their locations ? (brain going full speed--hull numbers?)
He said, we have listening posts, all over the world. We can hear most anything travelling in and under the waters.

I asked about the hull numbers. He said " we knew them all. Had sonars of them, almost as soon as they left port.

(brain smoking) Oh my God...how ?? "We had...(pause) we have incredible recon. If it's interesting, we know it."

So, I decided to throw dad a fastball. I asked, Did they know you were tracking them ?

He said " Most did. Some thought they were spook, but when they got too close, I'd ping them."
I asked, ping them ?

He said, pinging was a sonar thing. "You let them know you see them".

I asked about what might be going on, today, he aske how the weather was.
I think he really opened up, on his end, and I appreciated it.
I think this is relevant to this thread, because we can know where a threat is, but allow said threat to advance in confidence. Until we "ping" it.

Lex




posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by DoBravery

I did not mean to suggest that the US Navy could mask the noise of a carrier with active sonar.



I am not suggesting the US Navy would or could mask the noise of a carrier with active sonar either.

Agree with most of your post.

It is possible to electronically hide a carrier by various means. It is a very large ocean out there. They can hide the carriers quite well if they so desire. Better than most can even imagine.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 02:09 AM
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Your olde man is pretty much in the X ring there. This technology has only gotten better.

Pisses me off though when some brain/political retard in our government starts giving alot of this tech away to other nations.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 02:27 AM
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I will only state a few general things about submarines. AND yes, I am a bubblehead and have been one for a very long time.
The scenario was that both the group and the submerged unit were in open ocean transiting. There are no laws which govern anything but safety for open ocean navigation. A submerged unit during peacetime in the open ocean will be tracked and prosecuted if deemed a threat by the surface group. The surface group was known to have a submarine escort. During slow transits, this boat will be in close contact with the surface group and share information.
If any think it is hard to track a battle group, no matter what, they are in the unknowing.
Now we have another idea. Submerged unit known to be in area and passively prosecuted by the group escort so as to not alert the subject to a submerged threat. Submerged escort plays as a protector, but also get's many hours of training from tracking said "quiet" diesel boat. Entire data packs are stored for sounds, seawater data, sonar vs sea's tranmission ability, and sound patterns vs both. And sonar's passive pickup is analyzed and used for future upgrades.
It was a Song class boat, noisy as heck, even on the battery. They probably surfaced because they had to snorkel and recharge the batteries. If they wanted to be a pain, they could have cycled their torpedo tubes submerged and that would have got people excited.
I think it was a good training exercise for us bubbleheads.
This is a non event for the military, but a good cause for submarine funding in the future.



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by Char2c35t
its also possible that the DOD is inflating the threat to justify its bloated "defense" budget!


Well that might seem so based on some things you heard in the 80's but the reality was that western intelligence did their best to hide Soviet strength while playing up their own strengths... The historic record shows that the Soviet strength were consistently undersold in the press and that things were normally far worse than they let on...


More over a war between the US and Sino over Taiwan is silly on the business side of things, sino loses its biggest trade partner and that would mean Walmart cant fund the PLA anymore!


Actually it's China that pays for almost the entire DOD budget and if they stopped accepting the very weak dollar, and then reinvesting it in the US markets and economy in general, they would not benefit but wont in my knowledge suffer anywhere like the type of economics consequences. Remember that they have been developing on their own markets as well and are just using the US to fund faster growth than they would have been able to otherwise arrange. There is the other reality that the true rulers of the world have already decided that China is their model for civil organization and that still decide which economies gets developed at which speeds by their manipulation of central banks.

Stellar



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by StellarX



Well that might seem so based on some things you heard in the 80's but the reality was that western intelligence did their best to hide Soviet strength while playing up their own strengths... The historic record shows that the Soviet strength were consistently undersold in the press and that things were normally far worse than they let on...


Quite true here. One day I realized that the Soviets had never fielded a Le Mans racing type team. Superpowers could do this. They had never fielded an Atari game set ...superpowers can do this.
This lead to a wider field of thinking..about how unsuperpower the Soviets really were. It also lead me to realize how much of this truth our own Senator John Warner knew but was hiding from the American Public. The question arose..how many were actually doing this.
The Soviets had some strengths ..but most of this was used to scare the west in to larger budgets for military goodies. Keep us on the treadmill.
Today I am thinking that the Soviets have been replaced with the Terrorist types to keep us on the treadmill.


Actually it's China that pays for almost the entire DOD budget and if they stopped accepting the very weak dollar, and then reinvesting it in the US markets and economy in general, they would not benefit but wont in my knowledge suffer anywhere like the type of economics consequences. Remember that they have been developing on their own markets as well and are just using the US to fund faster growth than they would have been able to otherwise arrange. There is the other reality that the true rulers of the world have already decided that China is their model for civil organization and that still decide which economies gets developed at which speeds by their manipulation of central banks.

Stellar


I agree with this too. I also think this occurence has been going on for quite some time as the techniques are refined through trial and error. China today is the product of many many years of central bank manipulations....going back to the opium wars...but really refined with the advent of ping pong diplomacy. All of this connected.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 01:24 PM
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My question is this.

How many Captor type mines has the US probably secretly deposited in the strait between China and Tiawan? We can see them almost always, and pick them up again if they do disappear in no time flat. Diesel subs aren't going to be able to hide from the US navy, if the US decides to keep an eye out for them.

Chinese military try anything with their navy against tiawan, then they will find themselves getting slaughtered by these mines and quickly. It's simple area denial, and I'm pretty sure we have thought that peticular strait out reagrding this issue thurougly. Now if I could only spell thuroughly correctly.



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 01:43 PM
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I seriously doubt the US has mined the Straits.

First of all captor mines have a limited service life, secondly imagine the uproar if they were to be found.



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 02:24 PM
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they have got to have figured out a way to put mines in important places in a way so that they won't get found. Some sort of concealment method. But you do bring up a really great point. How deep is the water in that strait? Maybe not so deep. so yeah they would probably find a few of them and cause a stink.

But we have known that captor mines are pretty useful if they aren't found for a long time. I speculate but with no back up that we have figured out a way to mine in some function a selected area of the seabed without the devices being found. i don't know how or with what, but it's seems unlikely that the US would abandon such a usefull area denial tool. We've got to have replaced those captors with something that can fill the same role.

Orangetom would know an answer, hopefully he'll respond to this post.



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Quite true here. One day I realized that the Soviets had never fielded a Le Mans racing type team. Superpowers could do this. They had never fielded an Atari game set ...superpowers can do this.


I don't understand how you survive or win nuclear wars with either but i am sure i must be missing something.



This lead to a wider field of thinking..about how unsuperpower the Soviets really were. It also lead me to realize how much of this truth our own Senator John Warner knew but was hiding from the American Public. The question arose..how many were actually doing this.


Well US intelligence services obscured so many realities and still it become quite obvious by the early 80's that the US held few if any strategic cards... Have you looked at my posts related to the ABM deployment by the USSR or by their deployment of 700 or more land mobile ICBM's which existence the US never publicly admitted to? The US had no admitted capability to deal with either threats to make no mention of their ackowledgements of inferiority on the high seas and European battlefields..


The Soviets had some strengths ..but most of this was used to scare the west in to larger budgets for military goodies.


So why are you agreeing with me if you are clearly not? Did i not make it clear that there was every little strategic aces that were still on the US end of the table?


Keep us on the treadmill.
Today I am thinking that the Soviets have been replaced with the Terrorist types to keep us on the treadmill.


Well the pentagon people surely knew all these things and while they can not admit to them they must try catch up and rearm hence their crazed accusations against one country or another to attempt gaining the funds that might result in a shift of the balance of power.


I agree with this too. I also think this occurence has been going on for quite some time as the techniques are refined through trial and error. China today is the product of many many years of central bank manipulations....going back to the opium wars...but really refined with the advent of ping pong diplomacy. All of this connected.

Thanks,
Orangetom


All of it is connected but i believe the Chinese central bank still actually belong to the Chinese and not to European bankers like the US and European ( and most other ) banks...

Stellar



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 02:18 PM
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The fragments I read which passes for history and or the record of history indicates that the United States has been a vassel state of certain intrests since about 1898..though they have been working on it since before the Civil War. THese are primarily monetary intrests who inserted the early United States Banking system into play. THey solidified this in 1913. THe United States goes to war when needed and sacrafices their finest blood for their investments. These people are a nation unto themselves ..without borders. Not loyal to anyone but loyal to thier investments. This is a difficult thing for most Americans which to conceive. Way beyond the public education levels of most Americans.
Most of our wars have been in the service of these investors..not all of which are American. To protect their investments or generate new ones..to lay the grounwork in our finest blood..the down payments. Before we took on this role it was awarded to France and Le Grande Armee....up until 1916.

I ran across some reading years ago about a banking family in China before the Communists took over. This Chinese family was named Soong.
This was the front for the European Bankers in China. Bankers who were financing the various Opium Wars and other chaos in China. One of the Soong sisters was to go on to marry Chang Kai Shek. Madame Soong is or was Madame Chang Kai Shek. This solidified the banking intrests.
These banking intrests have been reintroduced to mainland China with the advent of ping pong diplomacy under the Presidential administration of Richard Nixon.
China has been rebuilt from the ashes of Communism with international banking investments and technologys ...including military technologys.
It appears that China is slated to take over much of manufacturing in the Orient. THat is unless China ,like pre WW2 Japan , decides to turn on her handers and go it alone. THen the repo man will be called in to repo China for the investors. Both Japan and Germany appeared to have been taken back by the repo man for turning on thier investors.

Western investors built Japan and armed her for WW2. Same can be said of Nazi Germany after the runaway inflation of the 1920s and 1930s.

YOu dont have to buy into this ..it is just my read on the history.

Russia herself appears to have been a failed experiment in which the investors have given up after years of other countrys bailing out the Soviets. Western nations have been the ones to keep the Soviets afloat for years and years...even before WW2. AFter the war too. Russia was far more useful to these investors practicing thier double dealing through the "balance of Power " dictum ..ie fingerprint for which they are so known.
This is the manner in which Russia was more useful to them as a fright tool on Americans. I believe many Senators knew this ..at certain levels..but never were allowed to tell the public. I believe our Senator John Warner knew this. Still does.

It just got to where with rapidly changing events it was to difficult anymore to actually hide Russias non superpower status. They just let it fall.

This is just not something made available to the ordinary public educated in public schools. This history is overlook or totally omitted.

Once again you dont have to buy into this ..its is just my read on history.


Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 03:54 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
YOu dont have to buy into this ..it is just my read on the history.


I have only minor objections as that is mostly what i have come to believe.. With the little research i have done about China it does seem that Moa was being undermined by Zhou Enlai on many occasions who was evidently much closer to his masters......


Russia herself appears to have been a failed experiment in which the investors have given up after years of other countrys bailing out the Soviets.


This lasted until at least the mid 70's as the USSR were sill being built up just like Japan and Germany before her to help encourage militarism in the nations the Rockefeller's and their European sponsors had to change by more subtle means.


Western nations have been the ones to keep the Soviets afloat for years and years...even before WW2. AFter the war too. Russia was far more useful to these investors practicing thier double dealing through the "balance of Power " dictum ..ie fingerprint for which they are so known.


And don't forget how much they helped during the war.... Your quite right and i have no serious objections so far.



This is the manner in which Russia was more useful to them as a fright tool on Americans. I believe many Senators knew this ..at certain levels..but never were allowed to tell the public. I believe our Senator John Warner knew this. Still does.


Absolutely.


It just got to where with rapidly changing events it was to difficult anymore to actually hide Russias non superpower status. They just let it fall.
This is just not something made available to the ordinary public educated in public schools. This history is overlook or totally omitted.


I could easily agree with this but based on what i have read ( i think i sent you a particular document... ) it seems that somewhere in the lat 1970's the Rockefeller's lost control of their Soviet client state as it managed to develop weaponry and staged a few strategic coup's ( Just like Hitler) by which means it completely turned the table's on which basis they kept building up to the present day. As one can see from the last two decades the international bankers have not played all their cards either and Russian civilians are suffering despite the power their government seems to wield.


Once again you dont have to buy into this ..its is just my read on history.
Thanks,
Orangetom


Exactly.
I am basing my views of Russian strength mostly on all the terrible things that have happened to the US since desert storm and on comments such as the following...

www.prisonplanet.com...

www.prisonplanet.com...

prisonplanet.com...

Maybe she just happened to figure it out and provide so accurate a date but considering the geophysical warfare ( for which only the former USSR had the infrastructure) being waged against the US one has to wonder if the international bankers has that kind of control over Russia at this time considering their great financial position and all.

As always i enjoy your comments however much you may choose to disagree with me.


Stellar



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 04:04 PM
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Oh yes..I agree..also during the war. Two evidences come to mind of note..one of which I have in a book here in my private collection.

From Major Jordans Diarys by Major George Racey Jordan.

What is known by most Americans is that there was a huge Atlantic Merchant Fleet which braved the Atlantic Crossing in often horrible weather and against the German U boats to deliver war materials to England and Russia both. This is most of what is read in history books if at all.

What is not told to most of us is that there was an air corridor supply route established from Great Falls, Montana across to Alaska and then across to Siberia. Russian personel were assigned to this base in Great Falls including high ranking laison people with connections direct to the White House and Harry Hopkins.

Major Jordan keeps a diary of the materials shipped to the Soviets for war efforts including portable petroleum refineries and equipment, US Treasurey note printing materials..including the particular paper the treasury uses on our bills. Also certain nuclear materials at a time when we only had so much of this stuff. He describes a box being dropped on the flight line and a brown type powder spilled on the runway next to the plane. People were picking this stuff up with thier hands and trying to put it back in the box. The Russian Laison told them to stop it would burn their hands. Now whether this was just caustic or radioactive ..who knows.
What Major Jordan implys here is that We ..the United States built the Russian Nuclear program with our give aways and the consent of the White House.

Also he saw blueprints for the whole manufacturing plant at Electric Boat in the state of Conn.

This transfer of goods and technology went on unimpeded with the consent of the White House. When ever anything slowed down to the dissatisfaction of the Soviets a call would be made to the White House and the base commander would soon be speaking to Harry Hopkins.

The other story of note comes from a German Stuka Pilot named Hans Rudel. (spelling) As a Stuka pilot on the Eastern Front he spent alot of time destroying he Soviet Army on the ground. In his book after one sortie he describes his amazement at how much equipment they destroyed in one day of sorties. He claims they could run their army for a month on what they had destroyed in one day of fighting. Where and how were they getting all this equipment?? He is amazed by this waste.

Mind you now these are just small isolated stories but they portend a much bigger picture..a fingerprint of something much bigger going on than the individual players.

I was old personally by an economics professor who made a trip to Russia in the late 1970s with his wife. He could not quite understand why the trip package through Pan Am was so affordable at the time. Why was it so cheap. While he was in Russia he figure it out.
This was a test group to find out what Americans could see in Russia in the up and coming scheduled Olympics in 1980. Could they see how unsuper power Russia actually was. Would Americans come to realize .."We are afriad of this??"

He realized the room was bugged when the maid would enter to do her thing and was always talking or singing to show that no conversation was going in with them. So after every days tour he would begin after entering thier hotel room. " Honey...did you see that ..those empty shelves in the stores...those long lines?? Did you see those apartments ..how small. How cold. Three gas stations in Leningrad. How do they get enough gas."
He went on and on and on for the microphones. He told me that he told his wife..."Honey I can tell you one thing...the US will never come to the Olympics..they dont dare let Americans see this."

The Olympic excuse was the war in Afganistan. The real reason he gives is the economic status of Soviet Russia.

Russia has been kept backwards through one mechanism or another. Russia will not be allowed to compete with the new growth investment area which is Communist China. Nor will we beyond a certain limit.
China ..like Soviet Russia will be allowed a certain amount of military for her needs. I believe the controllers of China just like America and Russia are not local but foreign. Our political process has been hijacked some years back by the real owners and operators and we are merely boot lackys for their invesements. We will be abandoned at some time down the road for the new growth area. That is unless the Chinese at some point turns on their handlers as did the Japanese and Germans. I believe India is being groomed at some point to take on the Chinese as cannon fodder if the Chinese get out of line. India is the repo man for China. They are the only nation big enough and also nuclear to suffice as cannon fodder for this. THey are also local.

Also yes..about Cho En Lai....being a contoller.. I believe these people dont often put thier eggs all in one basket per se. They have back up plans to go into effect if corrections need to be made. And they do need to be made from time to time. For some reason from time to time the actors forget their roles or lines.

I believe that John Kennedy was actually stupid enough to think he was an actual real President. So too with Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan. It was so way back when with Andrew Jackson who vetoed the First United States Bank Act when it came up for a vote. You never heard about Andy Jackson after his term was up.

These are just little tell tales you pick up from time to time...just not in the mainstream of what passes for history today. Sometimes what is missing from history can be more telling than what they shovel out to you as news, info, or history. Including those guys in that famous news format which is suppose to be "looking out for you!!"

You see Stellar..I am stupid enough to think that the political partys here in this country dont actually represent the intrests of the American Public. Their main objective is to represent the partys first and foremost. American People in name only.

I dont think it is any different for the Chinese and even thier military..as it is with ours. Why do you think they sometimes call it a theater of war??
They are on the string too..including the submarine in this post.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 15 2007 @ 12:35 AM
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Coolvetta wrote:
I believe one day there will be a war between China & US if american want to save Taiwan. BTW, I'm a native Chinese.
My country will fight for Taiwan even US force comes.

My American response:

China's worst enemy is it's own youth. They've already demonstrated that they don't want the kind of life that Communism offers. They want freedom. Just like every other living being in the universe, they want freedom.

"I don't know what weapons will be used in World War III but I do know what weapons will be used in World War IV,....stick and stones."
Albert Einstein



posted on Nov, 15 2007 @ 12:36 AM
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nice I really like what you have to say there...



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