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If Americans Knew

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posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 01:17 PM
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Trailer - If Americans Knew

A trailer of a movie explaining what threat the unanimously support for Israel could cause to the US. Yesterday the US vetoed a UN resolution, because it was biased according to John Bolton.

Well you can read and judge yourself:



The Security Council,

“Reaffirming it previous resolutions 242 (1967), 338 (1973), 446 (1979), 1322 (2000), 1397 (2002), 1402 (2002), 1403 (2002), 1405 (2002), 1435 (2002), 1515 (2003), and 1544 (2004),

“Reaffirming the applicable rules and principles of international law, including humanitarian and human rights laws, in particular the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949,

“Expressing its grave concern at the continued deterioration of the situation on the ground in the Palestinian Territory occupied by Israel since 1967, during the recent period, particularly as a result of the excessive and disproportionate use of force by Israel, the occupying Power, which has caused extensive loss of civilian Palestinian life and injuries, including among children and women,

“Condemning the military operations being carried out by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Gaza Strip, in particular the attack that took place in Beit Hanoun on 8 November 2006, which have caused loss of civilian life and extensive destruction of Palestinian property and vital infrastructure,

“Condemning also the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel,

“1. Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to immediately cease its military operations that endangers the Palestinian civilian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and to immediately withdraw its forces from within the Gaza Strip to positions prior to 28 June 2006;

“2. Calls for an immediate halt of all acts of violence and military activities between the Israeli and Palestinian side as was agreed in the Sharm El-Sheikh understandings of 8 February 2005;

“3. Requests the Secretary-General to establish a fact-finding mission on the attack that took place in Beit Hanoun on 8 November 2006 within thirty days;

“4. Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to scrupulously abide by its obligations and responsibilities under the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949;“5. Calls upon the Palestinian Authority to take immediate and sustained action to bring an end to violence, including the firing of rockets on Israeli territory;

“6. Emphasizes the need to preserve the Palestinian institutions, infrastructure and properties;

“7. Expresses grave concern about the dire humanitarian situation of the Palestinian people and calls for the provision of emergency assistance to them;

“8. Calls upon the international community, including the Quartet, to take immediate steps, to stabilize the situation and restart the peace process, including through the possible establishment of an international mechanism for protection of the civilian populations;

“9. Calls upon the parties supported by the international community to take immediate steps including confidence-building measures, with the objective of resuming peace negotiations;

“10. Stresses the importance of, and the need to achieve, a just, comprehensive, and lasting peace in the Middle East, based on all its relevant resolutions including its resolutions 242 (1967), 338 (1973), 1397 (2002) and 1515 (2003), the Madrid terms of reference, the principle of land for peace, the Arab Peace Initiative adopted by the League of Arab States Summit in March 2002 in Beirut and the Road Map;

UN


Does the US expect people around the world to take them serious any longer. The US always used to be the negotiator, but obviously decided that Israel is allowed to behave above international laws. Before Bush took office most Europeans supported the US in almost every situation, the lack of French and German support to the war in Iraq is only one of the many examples that support around the world is eroding, while simultaneously hatred against the US is reaching a concerning level.

Personally, I've noticed that many Americans have a distorted view of reality. Yes, Israelis have the right to defend themselves and if necessary to attack possible threats. To be honest, I've been a supporter of Israel for a pretty long period, till I understood what actually is happening over there. How Israeli policies make it impossible for Palestinians to live, how scared their children are, and primarily, how desperate they are.

Uninformed people often say ''they are all terrorists and only hate Jews''. Well, in contrast to Israel they don't have modern weapons and see those barbaric suicide bombings as last resort of resisting against Israeli suppression. I don't say I agree with using violence, but I can imagine why they do it. Israel created a living hell for Palestinians in their own country; they annex gradually entire parts of the already and don't care about UN resolutions, while Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians should.

Once again, I don't agree with using violence, but why is it so hard to understand that people revolt when they are suppressed by a tyranny? Have a look at the figures yourself:




Any form of criticism of Israel makes you an anti-Semitist or a terrorist-hugger. But ask yourself, what does Israel give the right to destroy Palestinian houses, to torture them, to steal their tax revenues and commit other crimes. Personally, I find it sickining that people actually do believe all Israeli acts are a ''response'' or in the name of ''self-defence''.


[edit: resized image]

[edit on 11/17/2006 by 12m8keall2c]




posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 03:45 PM
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I am for a resolution in the ME, and I think there is little to be gained in presenting this conflict in a distorted light. If Americans Knew is probably the most biased website I've ever seen when it comes to detailing this struggle. I am not against criticizing Israel, but these facts and figures are not to be trusted. For example, the chart which details the amount of people killed in this conflict makes no distinction between civilians and soldiers. This is pretty important. The majority of Israelis who died have been civilians. Only about half of the Palestinians were civilians. The numbers are not very different from each other once you adjust accordingly.

Also, is it really fair to include suicide bombers as Palestinian casualties here? It is not as if Israelis killed them. Is it fair to include Palestinians who were killed by other Palestinians? IAK does.

The chart detailing US aid to Israel uses numbers pulled out of the air. The do not exist anywhere else.

The chart describing new settlements conveniently ends before Israel dismantled every settlement in the entire Gaza strip in order to make it appear as though Israel was still constructing settlements instead of dismantling them.

There are more balanced resources out there to learn about the conflict. It is fairly easy to tell if a site is attempting objectivity or not. The ME situation is a complex and long standing conflict. Lying to benefit either side ultimately benefits no one.



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Shaktimaan
There are more balanced resources out there to learn about the conflict. It is fairly easy to tell if a site is attempting objectivity or not. The ME situation is a complex and long standing conflict. Lying to benefit either side ultimately benefits no one.


Exactly Shak...Both sides are equally wrong. Many on here are either for Israel or for the Arabs. I for one am tired of both! They all pull the same bs and kill innocent people. I am also tired of the stupid people in charge of US foreign policy that make Americans look bad.

Stop giving aid to both Israel and Palestine!



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 05:10 PM
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Most Americans that are informed have views on this situation already. I believe that the state of Israel has always been in a state of war for centuries and this isnt going to stop but they have to follow through mandatory rules set by the U.N and if Palestine wants their establishments staying there as well as that they want to live there they should. Foreign Policy doesnt work like that though and for most reasons as I see it put to come to think about it Israel could be labeled as a rogue state.

Backing up Israel in this war can potentially bring dangerous and harmful threats and can also ruin our allies. I wish the chart showed how much battles Israel did on their own. >__>. Israel has been making us look bad for the last five years and as if it was bad enough they have been in the news nearly every other and every other day.

I still am wodnering why people look at Israel and say terrorists hate the jews like you pointed out because that is disinfo. Israel should be held accountable for the geneva convention codes and that should not be their right. All these countries making us look bad need to be taught a lesson IMO.



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 05:31 PM
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MDV2,

I feel the same way. I used to believe that Israel was the victim, but I saw a programme on TV a couple of months back that explained what was happening from both sides. I now have no sympathy for Israel.

I do think that the American Government is doing the wrong thing by preventing any action against the agressors here.

Note. My views are not against the American or Israeli people, just their governments.



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 09:24 PM
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Stop giving aid to both Israel and Palestine!


Well, that's not exactly my view. I'd like to see more aid going to Palestine, preferably in the form of investments in industry and not food aid or loan guarantees. The idea is for them to be able to run their own economy eventually, not get screwed by aid-induced inflation and interest payments. Obviously I am talking about the future. If people are starving I have nothing against food aid.

Here's the thing. I follow the news in this area pretty closely and I believe we are witnessing a sort of sea change in the Israeli philosophy on Palestine. Until very recently the vast majority of the country was strongly in favor of dismantling the settlements and adopting a two state solution. You know, the same Land for Peace deal that won them treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Everyone always expected LFP to be the eventual way peace was achieved, the only questions were the exact terms.

But I think the events in the past 6 years have left even hardline peaceniks frustrated and casting about for a new solution. Despite the violence that has occurred on both sides there can be no doubt that Israel had begun a policy of unilateral disengagement. The idea was that since the efforts of Camp David and Taba did not bring about anything but a new intifada Israel would stop looking for a partner among the Palestinians who wanted to solve the crisis. Israel would dismantle all but the largest settlements, finish building the security wall, pull troops out of the territories and let Palestine do whatever the heck they wanted.

Clearly, this did not work, despite the fact that many of Israel's actions coincided with Palestinian demands. The additional twin blows to the peace process, the election of Hamas and Hezbollah's escalation of the Lebanese border conflict has left almost all of Israel looking for a new solution. Especially in the case of Lebanon, Israelis feel that they conceded to every demand, evacuated the country entirely and even had the border ratified by the UN only to see the conflict continue. After years of extremely measured responses to Hezbollah attacks the ante was raised significantly by Hezbollah's actions over the summer.

In both conflicts the feeling is pretty much, "well, we tried negotiations, peace treaties, unilaterally dismantling settlements and ending extra-Israel military presence only to find that UN approval doesn't matter to Hezbollah and that the Palestinians think they have Hamas to thank for getting Gaza back. what is the point of making these concessions if they only bring about an escalation in violence? perhaps we have been mistaken. perhaps we should try the opposite of our current strategy. perhaps we should try crushing them."

Israel hasn't really had a "crush-'em" strategy since the 80's. The past decade saw unprecedented Israeli attempts at a lasting peace. The positive experience with Jordan in 94 gave them a lot of hope. But even Peace Now would not condemn the vicious response to Lebanon over the summer. (If you know Peace Now then you know that they are not exactly hawks.)

So, if you were wondering what brought on this recent series of intense military responses from Israel, that's why. No one has seen this level of action for a long time in Israel. Who knows, maybe it will work. I do remember that Egypt wasn't partial to making peace until something similar happened. Hopefully something positive will come from this bloodshed and it will not be for naught.



posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by Shaktimaan
For example, the chart which details the amount of people killed in this conflict makes no distinction between civilians and soldiers. This is pretty important. The majority of Israelis who died have been civilians. Only about half of the Palestinians were civilians. The numbers are not very different from each other once you adjust accordingly.


I am not going to argue with you about the credibility of these figures, as it isn't the point I'm trying to make, but if you go the site it does provide the necessary sources that were used e.g. the Washington Report, on which the figures and graphs are based.


Source: The Palestine Red Crescent Society, is our source for the Palestinian deaths. (Visit their statistics page, which was last updated on October 31, 2006.) Our source for the number of Israelis killed is Israel’s military, the Israel Defense Forces. (Visit their statistics page, which was last updated on January 15, 2006.)

If Americans Knew




The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs is a 100-page magazine published 9 times per year in Washington, DC, that focuses on news and analysis from and about the Middle East and U.S. policy in that region.

The Washington Report is published by the American Educational Trust (AET), a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, DC by retired U.S. foreign service officers to provide the American public with balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with Middle Eastern states.


Apart from that, the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions confirms the figures

Another 5,000 homes have been demolished from the start of the second Intifada (October 2000) through 2004.

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions



Originally posted by Shaktimaan
The chart describing new settlements conveniently ends before Israel dismantled every settlement in the entire Gaza strip in order to make it appear as though Israel was still constructing settlements instead of dismantling them.


Well that's reality, Israel does rapidly construct new settlements; the following source provides the evidence:


Construction of more than 200 settlements and the transfer of 400,000 Israelis across the 1967 boundaries: about 200,000 in the West Bank, 200,000 in East Jerusalem and 6000 in Gaza (the latter occupying a fourth of the land, including most of the coastline);

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions


The point I'm trying to make is the lack of mainstream media attention to the cause of the Palestinians. Many press agencies have created a distorted image of Palestinians in favor of Israel. They present all Palestinians as terrorists, which falsely supports Israel's claim of acting in the name of ''self-defense'', and barely pay any attention about the Palestinian suffering and Israeli suppression.

This is exactly the reason why I supported Israel for a pretty long time - I was only exposed to the biased mainstream media's voice, which makes you believe that all Palestinians are cruel terrorists and Israel the innocent defender. Most probably the average Westerner doesn't even know about the severe living conditions of Palestinians.



Image SourcePalestinian Red Crescent Society


Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Also, is it really fair to include suicide bombers as Palestinian casualties here? It is not as if Israelis killed them. Is it fair to include Palestinians who were killed by other Palestinians? IAK does.


Slightly agree, but you cannot deny that most Palestinians were innocent people that died due to the Israeli-Palestinian violence; it also depends on whom you define as terrorist. I mean a stone thrower cannot be defined as terrorist in my opinion.


Originally posted by Shaktimaan
The chart detailing US aid to Israel uses numbers pulled out of the air. The do not exist anywhere else.




The Israeli government and military receive $15,139,178* from the U.S. every day; Palestinian NGO’s receive $232,290** from the U.S. each day.

*This number is based on 1997 research by the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs and includes economic and military aid, as well as federal loan guarantees. The Washington Report is a magazine published in Washington, DC, that focuses on news and analysis from and about the Middle East and U.S. policy in that region. It is dedicated to providing the American public with balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with Middle Eastern states.

This number is based on research done by Richard H. Curtiss and others at the Washington Report. They have found that Israel receives 12.2% more than $3 billion directly alloted to them in economic and military aid. See The Cost of Israel for a complete discussion of U.S. assistance to Israel.

** In 2004, the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) provided $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.

U.S. law prohibits providing aid directly to the PA. According to USAID, the law was waived once, in 2003.

Source



[edit on 13-11-2006 by Mdv2]



posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 04:04 AM
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GHreat post Mdv2,
I have and continue to research this topic whenever i get the chance, and although i agree that fault lies with both parties, the evidence is damning in relation to Israel. All their talk of peace, as far as i can see are all lies.

Grat post, well thought out. Way above.



posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 12:37 PM
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Do you know what the Washington Report is? It exists only to defame Israel. Most of their stuff is straight propaganda, as in really out there stuff. One of their writers blamed Abu Ghirab on Israel a while back I remember.

Look at their website. Slamming Israel is the theme of every single article they publish. Does that raise any red flags for you?



posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 12:42 PM
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Yes Americans know.

They know not to fall for propaganda websites to sucker you in and to continue to hate.



posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 12:58 PM
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Puleasae give us a break it is all hogwash, yet many fall for it. :shk:

In case you are not aware anyone and I do mean anyone who can get their hands on tapes 20 30 40 years old take one line use just that one line and put other lines in and you get pure propaganda, that suits their agenda.

With that said I would love to get my hands on the complete originals and listen to them in full to get the full context of what was said and I am willing to bet it is not as it appears in this
youtube video.



posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 01:25 PM
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In a lot of these rebuttals you kind of talk around what my issues were. In most cases I am not refuting the hard data but the way it is presented. For example...



Well that's reality, Israel does rapidly construct new settlements; the following source provides the evidence:


I am discussing current events. Of course Israel constructed new settlements in the past. But for the past few years they have not. They have been dismantling them in tremendous numbers. Gaza is empty of settlements and most West Bank settlements were slated for eradication before the war heated up.

Are these figures meant to provide an accurate account of what is happening in the ME or is their function to portray Israel in as poor a light as possible? If it is the former, then why, after Israel began rectifying the settlement situation do they make no mention of it? Israel removed the settlements from Gaza quite awhile ago you know. If this site is not partisan then why are they reluctant to report on positive actions taken by Israel?

I noticed that every single one of the sources listed are specifically pro-Palestinian groups. Do you think that any group who stands for supporting a specific movement (any movement, it doesn't matter) is going to be a good resource for objective information? Are Tobacco industry financed research orgs good places to get unbiased information on the health risks associated with smoking, for instance? Would you go to PETA to get solid facts about animal testing standards in medical research labs? Personally, I would not.



posted on Nov, 13 2006 @ 01:53 PM
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OK, one more short thing and I'll quit posting for now.

Did you notice that the figures for total deaths in the territories shown here do not specify that the deaths were due to Israeli actions. Do you think it was an oversight that this small specifier was left out? Palestinian on Palestinian violence is accountable for a tremendous number of casualties, especially recently. Compare this number to the number posted by agencies like the New York Times or the Washington Post. I have a funny feeling there is a big difference.

Incidentally, when I say "militant" I am referring to a gunman or suicide bomber, not stone thrower. If Israel's policy was to consider stone-throwers as legitimate threats then the number of casualties would be far higher. While there are incidents of IDF troops opening fire on rock-throwers they are not policy and they do not occur often. When they do happen they should be (and are) roundly condemned. Israeli Rules of Engagement are very specific about stuff like this.

There are plenty of decent resources out there on the history of this conflict. Why would you take a skewed and dishonest website like this at their word?



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 04:22 AM
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Originally posted by Shaktimaan
In a lot of these rebuttals you kind of talk around what my issues were. In most cases I am not refuting the hard data but the way it is presented. For example...



Well that's reality, Israel does rapidly construct new settlements; the following source provides the evidence:


I am discussing current events. Of course Israel constructed new settlements in the past. But for the past few years they have not. They have been dismantling them in tremendous numbers. Gaza is empty of settlements and most West Bank settlements were slated for eradication before the war heated up.


Very interesting statement, so basically I should consider the following source as another Israeli anti-Israel lie?



West Bank settlements expanding steadily - report

24 Oct 2006
Source: Reuters

By Dan Williams

JERUSALEM, Oct 24 (Reuters) - Jewish settlements are expanding in the occupied West Bank despite the building freeze demanded by a U.S.-led peace plan and sometimes in defiance of Israeli law, a paper said on Tuesday citing a government report.

"Construction there has been ongoing for years, in blatant violation of the law," the paper quoted the report as saying.

Israel undertook to freeze settlement growth and dismantle unauthorized settler outposts as part of a "road map" for peace with the Palestinians that neither side has done much to follow and which has been undermined by violence.

Reuters



Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Israel removed the settlements from Gaza quite awhile ago you know. If this site is not partisan then why are they reluctant to report on positive actions taken by Israel?


Great propaganda stunt, on one hand pretending to the world that Israel seriously makes an effort to comply with international laws, but in the meantime clandestinely construct and expand (new) settlements.


Originally posted by Shaktimaan
I noticed that every single one of the sources listed are specifically pro-Palestinian groups.


Since when is the Red Crescent Movement a ''pro-Palestinian'' movement? I noticed that you pretend to be Pro-Palestinian in another thread, while all your posts are solely related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and intended to defend Israel's policies. Suddenly I recall an article I read during the Lebanon-Israel war in which the author described the following:


Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem
WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.

Times Online




Originally posted by Shaktimaan
Do you think that any group who stands for supporting a specific movement (any movement, it doesn't matter) is going to be a good resource for objective information?


-Red Crescent Movement
-Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions
-The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights.

Now I would like to suggest you to back up your assertions with evidence.




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