US vetos Israeli UN condemnation of Gaza air strikes!

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation


Here's a nice video from an orthodox jew... perhaps this will provide evidence that there are things you don't know about the truth behind the middle east conflict.


www.youtube.com...

He is mostly religiously opposed to Israel being a state because he believes its not Gods will and that this is something artificial created by the Zionists, the violence against the Palestinians is an aside to them and I guess it just helps their cause a little more. That group is based here in Brooklyn NY if Im not mistaken. I've also been to their website. I think other rabbis consider them as charlatans.

Originally posted by deadbang

Yes Someone has said it's ok...
Stumason - "And yes, olive groves. Those home made bottle rockets that the Palestinians chuck at you every now and then. When was the last time anyone was killed?"...sounds like approval to me!

If that sounds like "approval", then english isn't your first language or you just trying to stir it up.

What I was actually saying was why do hundreds of Palestinian civilains have to die for the sake of a few home made bottle rockets landing in some olive grove. When was the last time anyone in Israel was actually killed by a Qassam rocket, huh? And how many Palestinians have died in "retalliation". Last week, before those people were massacred by the "technical error", I heard of one Israeli woman who was "lightly injured" by a Qassam rocket. So she got a scratch and 18 people had to die?

Thats what I was saying and it was clear as the nose on your face. No where in there can you find "approval".. Idiot.

[edit on 14/11/06 by stumason]

Obviously if its just the Jews dying, so who cares! I mean had it been Palestinians then its soo unfair! Poor little sweathearts, they wouldnt hurt a fly!

As for you Olive groves;

The reason you dont see the bloodbath that you so eagerly hope for is becacuse Israel has built bunkers and bomb shelters. Also there are sirens that go off. So when there is a rocket barrage, the sirens go off and the people run into the bomb shelters!

You know just like when the luftwaffe was bombing the Jesus out of you in london, you hid in the tube stations! There werent casualities in the thousands like there should have been but the RAF thought it was deserving enought to massacring thousands of German civilians by carpet bombing Dresden! Too bad they didnt have the subway ?

Jeez you're an equal opportunity hater aren't you.

No-one has wished or celebrated any Israeli civilian deaths

So the Palestinian rockets, you agree, are unlikely to cause significant casulaties among the Israeli civilains - why then 'the need' for massive retaliation / collective punishment?

55,000 UK civilians died in Luftwaffe bombings - more than just a few. The vast majority of people in the UK (even London) sheltered in private / government shelters (just like the Israelis) rather than the tubes

The USAF bombed Dresden as well as Bomber Command but why let the actual facts get in the way of hatred eh?

Main Attack on City
2 x RAF Attacks

2 x USAF Attacks

Follow-up raids
2 x USAF attacks

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 14/11/2006 by Strangerous]

Originally posted by stumason


If that sounds like "approval", then english isn't your first language or you just trying to stir it up.

No where in there can you find "approval".. Idiot.

[edit on 14/11/06 by stumason]

Stumason, Well mister father of 3...english is in fact my first language...and I would say there is a word in the english language that describes your little "bottlerocket" statement.
Tacit - connivance: (law) tacit approval of someone's wrongdoing (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)

IMO it sounds like as long as they dont hit anyone, and by the way they have, then it's ok for the Palestinians to "chuck" a few every now wand then....HUH?

This from the BBC..."According to the Israeli army, Qassams killed eight people within Israel between June 2004 and March 2006, including three children aged four or under."
link
news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by deadbang

Stumason, Well mister father of 3...english is in fact my first language...and I would say there is a word in the english language that describes your This from the BBC..."According to the Israeli army, Qassams killed eight people within Israel between June 2004 and March 2006, including three children aged four or under."
link

You have the fathers mixed up. I dunno if Stu is or not.


If you believe that within 2 years, 8 deaths and within 1 month (Nevermind from 2004-2006 just ONE month) over 500 deaths which includes well over 100 children is appropriate reaction,and not to mention all the house razings, millions of dollars in infrastructure damage, 1000's suffering from hunger and medical issues and thousands of "administrative" arrests being held without charge is a fair response, I am just awestruck.

I would love to show you pictures of babies with their heads blown out and brains splattered all over the place and bodies practically melted and skin crumbling from the use of DIME bombs, phosphor, cluster bombs and even unborn fetuses with bullets through them. You just have no clue what you are saying and what it is that you are putting yourself behind in support of. You say the Palestinians know how to handle the media and yet people never see this because if they had , then Israel's IDF/IAF would be known for what they truly are. Terrorists just like those shooting the Qassams. No better then common thugs and criminals.

Apparently, its so easy to sit behind a computer screen thousands of miles away and shower the Israels with platitudes on what they ought to do and what compassion is all about! Armchair martyrs!!

As for contest on the brutality of either side, I can show you pictures of Palestinan children with suicide vests and AK's. I can also show you women and kids with explosives strapped around them. Can you show me the same with Israeli kids and women ??

Can you tell me when was the last time an Israeli civilian blew himself up in a Palestinan restaraunt or a bus full of Palestinian children ?

There is a reason why you see so many Palestinans in ambulancec while there are very few Israelis. The reason is that the terrorists like to pose with their dead, much like hunters pose with their kills, because even the dead are weapons, its a fetish for death. Even in death they want to exploit the dead for the bonus publicity and sympathy that gruesome images can muster for their terrorist ways. This is a terrorist custom! When they cant find enough dead to exhibit and put on display they fake them, just like the Terrorist-loving Reuters!

But Israel doesnt prescribe to the exaulted ideas of these terrorists and the dead are treated with the dignity and respect they deserve. Putting on display maimed corpses from terrorists bombings apparently isnt in vouge in Israel!

IAF101,

Are you just going to ignore the idea that they STOLE palestinain land (and don't tell me god gave it to them, because the palestinains don't care). Now they illegally occupy their bridges, roads, and borders, constantly humiliating refugees daily. Four decades of hate filled propaganda against the palestinians have brainwashed you into believing it is the israelis in danger.

It is CAUSE & EFFECT people!!! There was a cause (israel stole their land and evicted thousands from their homes) now the effect is simple minded people with no other ability to harm their enemies than blowing themselves up are retaliating. And BTW these suicidal palestinans are privvy to the pictures of israeli citizens signing their names on rockets headed for gaza. So don't act like you understand and can form an unbiased opinon... because it's obvious to people that know the WHOLE story, that you are ill-equiped to be unbiased.

Hey who said this...?

They (palestinians) can stay here only if they're resigned to being our slaves.

Ariel Sharon

Look deeper than the surface before responding please...

[edit on 14-11-2006 by AnAbsoluteCreation]

Originally posted by IAF101


Can you tell me when was the last time an Israeli civilian blew himself up in a Palestinan restaraunt or a bus full of Palestinian children ?

They don't need to - they have an Army prone to 'technical errors', a culture of ineffectual 'investigations' into non-targetted Palestinian civilian deaths and subsidised ordnance to fire at civilian areas.

Then again some of them still feel the need:

Families of Israeli Arabs shot dead on a bus in Galilee are not considered terrorism victims because their killer was Jewish, the defence ministry says.
Under Israeli law, only attacks by "enemies of Israel" are considered terrorism, the ministry said.

The ruling means families of the four victims will not be entitled to the lifelong monthly payments given to Israeli victims of Palestinian attacks.

The ministry says it has offered them an unspecified one-off payment.

The Arabs were killed by a 19-year-old Israeli army deserter who was thought to be trying to derail the evacuation of Jewish settlements in Gaza.

news.bbc.co.uk...

When are you going to see there's terrorism on both sides but only one side has the latest hi-tech weaponry and a 'big brother' to defend their excesses?

Originally posted by IAF101

Can you show me the same with Israeli kids and women ??

Can you tell me when was the last time an Israeli civilian blew himself up in a Palestinan restaraunt or a bus full of Palestinian children ?

Just post up a picture of an Israeli dude in ANY Tank, sitting in Heavy artillery or F16 and that will be enough for me to see as someone with explosives strapped to their bodies. An F-16 not only is capable of blowing up a bus but all the surrounding area as well, buildings included.


Believe me, if the palestinians had access to modernized weapons like you do, they would not be sacrificing themselves, they would be giving you the same thing right back so please save the "Holier then thou" attitude because it doesn't work. Give them access to modernized weaponry and see if the strikes are not equal in force and if you will see another Palestinian throw himself to martyrdom. You would never see a suicide bomber again. Then though you would have a problem because there would be the same amount of israelis dying as there would be Palestinians and that would be a big problem Im sure. It would also put a halt to Israelis killing the Palestinians once you saw that things were evened out. This was the only thing that forced Israel out of Lebanon over the summer once their own started dying it became an issue. When it was just Lebanese dying it was fun for the IAF/IDF.

Originally posted by IAF101
You know just like when the luftwaffe was bombing the Jesus out of you in london, you hid in the tube stations! There werent casualities in the thousands like there should have been but the RAF thought it was deserving enought to massacring thousands of German civilians by carpet bombing Dresden! Too bad they didnt have the subway ?

You an ignorant SOB sometimes. We litterally lost thousands in the Blitz, so don't be an arse. I have already covered the Dresden thing in another thread recently anyway (or was it this one.... )

Almost 50,000 civilians died in the Blitz. Go educate yourself.

Again, my point stands. Why do the Israeli's, who suffer almost no casualties (regardless where you hide) feel the need to retalliate by levelling whole areas of Gaza, without giving a damn who's in them? The level of force is entirely disproportionate.

I'd like to see someone answer the question of "What if the UK did that to Dublin". Then we'd see the double standards and hypocrasy in play.

Originally posted by deadbang

Stumason, Well mister father of 3...english is in fact my first language...and I would say there is a word in the english language that describes your little "bottlerocket" statement.
Tacit - connivance: (law) tacit approval of someone's wrongdoing (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)

IMO it sounds like as long as they dont hit anyone, and by the way they have, then it's ok for the Palestinians to "chuck" a few every now wand then....HUH?

This from the BBC..."According to the Israeli army, Qassams killed eight people within Israel between June 2004 and March 2006, including three children aged four or under."
link
news.bbc.co.uk...

Jeebus H Christ.

Just go and look up prior posts from me on this subject. You'll find me condemning the tactics used by both sides. what is the problem here is the utterly disproportionate use of force by the IDF. So the Iraelis lost 8 people in two years. The UK lost of 5000 people during the Troubles, yet we didn't level Dublin.

See my point?

PS: Where did you get the "father of three" comment from?

The problem is this.

It doesn't matter if we condemn the actions of Hezbollah, or Hammas as well as those of the IDF. It doesn't matter if we say that the people who fire rockets into Israeli territory are scumbags - which they are.

All the Israelis want to hear is platitiudes. They want to hear how they can do no wrong. They want to ignore the fact that they have total scumbags of their own, and condemn everyone else. Its all someone elses fault. If its a three year old Palestinian kid killed in its sleep by a shell fired from an Israeli position due to a "technical error" then its the kids fault, not the poor Israeli commander who was neglegent in his duties.

You know, I have sympathy for the dead, and the families of the dead on BOTH sides of the conflict. But thats all I have sympathy for, because the organisations responsible for carrying on the whole issue are so pig headed and stupid that all they see is war. And by that I mean the Israeli Government and the leaders of Hezbollah. The absolutely stupid fanatics one both sides are like sheep (IAF is a good example) and cannot see anything beyond killing.

Can't you see? Its a sport to them. They actually enjoy it.

And damn the poor sods that get caught in the middle.

[edit on 15-11-2006 by neformore]

Originally posted by neformore
But thats all I have sympathy for, because the organisations responsible for carrying on the whole issue are so pig headed and stupid that all they see is war. And by that I mean the Israeli Government and the leaders of Hezbollah. The absolutely stupid fanatics one both sides are like sheep (IAF is a good example) and cannot see anything beyond killing.

Can't you see? Its a sport to them. They actually enjoy it.

And damn the poor sods that get caught in the middle.

Nefroremore and Im in 100% agreement. The only thing that pisses me off is when they cut off economically these groups or sanction the offending countries or even forcibly make reparations through property seizure without doing it to both sides it just makes it worse. If Israeli weapons or people in the military kill unarmed civilians and they make no effort to make reparations, then it should either be deducted from their aid or seize property and auction it off, if they are using our weapons offensively and against Exportation rules, recall the weapons , and sanction them. What good is cutting off 2 heads from a 3 headed snake? If we expect this to end we must impress the same punishment on all involved parties. This is if Bush truly wants a peace. Israel won't be able to defend if their toys are gone (Which you know they won't allow to happen), Hamas can't pay their wages or buy guns, Iran is sanctioned, Hizbollah is cut off...no one left with the financial ability to fight for any extended period of time. See if israel randomly breaks the rules again if we show them we are serious instead of letting them slide.

This is getting out of hand, and anyone denying that its causing our involvement is dreaming.

Originally posted by neformore
If its a three year old Palestinian kid killed in its sleep by a shell fired from an Israeli position due to a "technical error" then its the kids fault, not the poor Israeli commander who was neglegent in his duties.

Israeli commander's fault !? What do you think, that they saw this house with a Palestinians sleeping and said to themselves, " Hey, lets wake them up!" ??

It was a technical fault, as in when the light bulb fuses or the car doesnt start on a cold morning! The equipment the IDF uses is under constant use with trying to counter Hamas and the other palestinian terrorist organizations that work in Gaza, especially after the withdrawal from Gaza. With such great wear and tear on the machinery it is bound to have some problems and with their constant requirement on the field there is little or no opportunity to service them . This is not the fault of the people operating them but the failure of the machine itself to perform as accurately as it has been due to its extensive wear and tear from its perinieal use.

If the Palestinans could just control their primal urge to bomb Israel with their rockets and strap bombs on their women and kids and send them into Israel maybe the IDf wouldnt have so much work to do containing terrorism and then maybe the IDF would have all their machinery in top order. But as long as the palestinains insist on trying to make life difficult such problems are bound to occur.

But apparently this hasnt registered with the Palestinains and their fellow "crusaders" in the western world. So here rejoice, for this is a vicotry for Palestinians:

Ynetnews
Latest Update: 11.15.06, 11:50: Six rockets were fired from the northern Gaza Strip at the Western Negev Wednesday morning, and two of them landed in the town of Sderot.

One of the rockets hit a busy street in town, killing 57 year old Fatima Slotzker and seriously wounding a 24 year old man, one of Defense Minister Amir Peretz's bodyguards who was on duty at the time.

And if that wasnt enought, there is more:

Ynetnews
A 17-year-old Sderot resident sustained serious injuries and three others were lightly wounded in a Qassam attack on the western Negev town Wednesday evening, the local municipality said. The rocket landed in the city center, causing damage to buildings in the area; residents were asked to remain indoors.

Maybe the Third time is a charm ??

I have a question to ask....

Why is it that whenever I see a thread with the words "Israel" in it, the same 5-6 jokers instantly pop up and start in with the mud-slinging? You know who you are......

Sometimes I wish you folks would give it a rest. Half of the time you can't even get a point across without couching your arguement in rhetoric, slander, and distortion. And then more often than not the thread goes off on a tangent on some unrelated topic.

While you may feel pationate about your position, please try to spend some extra time composing your posts so that they are less inflammatory and more readable. This kind of back-and-forth adds nothing to the content of the board, nor does it foster any consiricy-related thinking and conversation.

Pieman, Stumason...sorry guys...in the heat of the moment I got you mixed up...my apologies!
Let the debate continue!!!

As the author of this thread I would like to quickly summarized. There are many points to entertain before understanding your position. I will try to be clear and concise.

Who's at fault here. Is it the palestians who are poor and have no modern way to attack their aggressors other than lauching out-dated rockets and lacing themselves with explosives.

Or is the israelis who refuse to stop their illegal occupation and policing of all borders that dramatically disrupts palastinian lives. (ie. you live a ten minute walk to work, but the check points by arrogant IDF make it a daily 2 hour walk). Yes, they control the borders not because they know palestinians are crazy... but because they know that they deserve the backlash of the illegal occupation and are doing these things to prevent the inevitable. Alas, they have brilliantly tricked the world into believing that the palestinians are cockroaches (IDF General's words) and it is them who want to kill people that believe in freedom.

Yes the islamic world want to run their own land... so does every other religious country. So who wants to be a hypocrit? Guess what people, the arabs run that land whether you want to believe it or not. The outnumber the isrealis 5 to 1 in the region if not more.

So people here either choose to see the crazy palestinians and all the rhetoric that is being placed upon them, in the "so-called: war on terror (isn't funny how we throw everone different into that group these days?) or people choose to understand and sympathize the decades on IDF sinister ways and how the palestinians are left to deal.

There is no ignoring the reason behind the situation, all you can do is be stubborn enough in your position to not want to be wrong... because me and a few others, along with the great man upstairs knows the truth.

Yes, there are angry palestinians that have resorted to barbaric ways, but I ask you to understand what got them to that state of mind?

Now you can speak of hezzbolah and how modern their ways are and debate that point. But again, this is the act of other countries with money supporting and defending the innocent people that continuously die in the conflict.

Do you remember the afhgan soviet war? We supplied afghanistan with almost all of their money and weapons to defeat the russions. So... I asked you smart people out there... who is the hypocrit? (BTW, I know we did that in retaliation from what they did to us in Vietnam, but that doesn't negate my point).

AAC

Originally posted by Wolfpack 51
According to the article in the start of this thread, there were no condemnations made to Palestine concerning their terroistic actions against Israel.

It seems true that America backs Israel no matter what, it is the proper response to do.

The US has an obligation to its own people ahead of Israel or any Israeli supporter. Most American citizens do not want to go and die to save Israel especially since they are arrogant and pushy vs their neighbors in the region.

The damage done to Israel via stones and firecracker rockets is minimal in comparison to what is done to the Arabs.

It is time for dialogue whereby Israel is forced to negotiate with its neighbors on fair terms.

To the people that are in their minds defending theirself, the opposition side is expendable.

In that if Iran launched a nuclear bomb at America, and it hit a small town in the midwest, killing 100 people, It would be acceptable to destroy the entire capital of Iran, with a (made up population of 20,000,000). America by a large percentage would accept this as a acceptable action.

I feel the same is true of the Israel people and America. If some nut sector attacks Israel, then the retaliation, no matter how severe is acceptable.

If they kill 6, then Israel kills 500. If they kill 500, then Israel kills 5000. Keep this going until the radicals realize the cost to them is not worth what they continue to do.