Are We Conceived or Born Believers, Both or Neither?

I believe that we are both conceived and born believers in God. I believe this myself and in what the Bible says: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." Jeremiah 1:5.

Children and adults that do not believe in God were misled by other humans and/or demonic spirits.

I have the feeling that I will run into opposition from pro-choice supporters regarding abortion.

tech your probably reading my intro into what I believe right now in your other thread, so youll understand what Im about to say a bit better.

I would have to disagree with you on this one, for a rather simple reason. When we are born, we are not aware, and cant really believe in anything. We start to believe when our mind begins to process, as we grow.

That in no way means I am saying we arent connected to god, just that we aren't aware of god until we can process what that means, or have that amount of thought. In the early years of life, we aren't aware of the world outside of what we can see or many things at all. We don't yet have beliefs or anything to that extent. That doesnt mean arent born knowing god, just that we dont believe it until we are capable of doing so.

This in no way reflects my personal belief, just why I disagree with you if I believed the same religion as you.

Well, we would not be able to test this due to ethical concerns but I believe if a child were left to its own devices it would try to find an explination for those ultimate questions eventually but I do doubt that it would be the god with a capital G to which you are refering.

Originally posted by GreatTech
Children and adults that do not believe in God were misled by other humans and/or demonic spirits.

I am going to go off the cuff here and say that children/adults who do believe in the same god as yourself may have been 'mislead' as well. I use the word mislead because your path could also be the wrong one and it would be a bit cosed minded to say otherwise...after all, nobody knows what is the right way to live your spiritual life.

Who knows though, interesting question.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
tech your probably reading my intro into what I believe right now in your other thread, so youll understand what Im about to say a bit better.

I would have to disagree with you on this one, for a rather simple reason. When we are born, we are not aware, and cant really believe in anything. We start to believe when our mind begins to process, as we grow.

That in no way means I am saying we arent connected to god, just that we aren't aware of god until we can process what that means, or have that amount of thought. In the early years of life, we aren't aware of the world outside of what we can see or many things at all. We don't yet have beliefs or anything to that extent. That doesnt mean arent born knowing god, just that we dont believe it until we are capable of doing so.

This in no way reflects my personal belief, just why I disagree with you if I believed the same religion as you.

Actually despite my statements and experiences I've written about in other threads, I would have to agree with this statement. I remember being three years old and going to nursery. They told me about Christ. Even though I'm sure my parents had spoken about him before, I remember it being a completely new concept to me at the time. That isn't to say that I hadn't perhaps forgotten though. It's a great question, but I doubt we'll* find an answer that will satisfy everyone any time soon.

* Spelling & Punctuation.

[edit on 11.11.2006 by Isaac Tanner Madsen]

if you were to say we are born connected to god and born under god, then thats fine, but to say we are all born believing him, well technically we aren't since at birth we dont have the mental capability to believe. thats all I am saying.

Human souls began at the earliest, Infinite years ago, and at the latest, conception. Heart beats can be detected at 21 days in the womb and brain waves can be detected at 45 days in the womb.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by GreatTech]

Originally posted by GreatTech
Human souls began at the earliest, Infinite years ago, and at the latest, conception. Heart beats can be detected at 21 days in the womb and brain waves can be detected at 45 days in the womb.

yes, but that has nothing to do with believing. We were not born believers of god. We may have been born with souls that god has known, but we do not believe in him at birth.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
yes, but that has nothing to do with believing. We were not born believers of god. We may have been born with souls that god has known, but we do not believe in him at birth.

The earliest that we believed in God was Infinite years ago, and the latest that we believed in God was at conception. The only things that could have strayed us from belief in God are humans and demonic spirits. Some cats and dogs may believe in God more than humans possessed by demonic spirits.

Originally posted by GreatTech
The earliest that we believed in God was Infinite years ago, and the latest that we believed in God was at conception. The only things that could have strayed us from belief in God are humans and demonic spirits. Some cats and dogs may believe in God more than humans possessed by demonic spirits.

the idea that we believe something requires a consciousness. Conscious thought is the necessity of belief. If you refer to spirit, that it is something we are born with, then you are not talking belief.

Belief stems from consciousness, and consciousness does not come with birth, it comes with the growing mind eventually reaching complexity to receive/develop one (depends on what youm believe as to whether its receive, developed or otherwise).

A spirit does not allow belief, nothing your born with allows thought, and no thought means no belief. Consciousness is needed to have a belief, and a consciousness does not come till later in life (suppose to be like 2-3 I believe, maybe alil younger in some, depends).

since we are all connected together much like an biblical cord, A mothers belief effects the womb. At birth we are effected by our parents thoughts..A baby's instinct and physiology to latch and suck the breast always amazes me lol. But yes, a mothers conscience effects the physiology as well. if the mother believes in God, the new born will feel her comfort as well, much like your mirror theory. We have consciousness way before birth...you may want to correct that in your Imitation Theory.....

I mean by being conscience before birth as being as one in the womb, as being part of the mother.

maybe in the big picture, we are all in a womb, and our birth is death.
Thanks for making me ponder on this





[edit on 11-11-2006 by XPhiles]

[edit on 11-11-2006 by XPhiles]

Originally posted by GreatTech
The earliest that we believed in God was Infinite years ago, and the latest that we believed in God was at conception. The only things that could have strayed us from belief in God are humans and demonic spirits. Some cats and dogs may believe in God more than humans possessed by demonic spirits.

If that is what you believe then there is no disagreement with you now is there?

It would be like arguing with somebody over something and can only say "I am right because I know I am right". This seems to be what you are doing.

Rather then host a theological debate with discussion on conception related to thought (as suggested by grmreaper) , nurture instilling thoughts and beliefs in an individual (as suggested by myself) or the mothers thoughts affecting the child while still in the womb (as suggested by XPhiles...which actually holds more scientific merit then most would think. Some psycologists are just now started to wonder if the womans feelings and emotion affect prenatal emotional development).

I would love to hold actual discourse on this very intersting topic but if it remains clear that your methodology for argument continues to be 'I am right because I know I am right' then I will have to bow out of this one.

**XPhiles** You stated that the childs instinct to 'suckle' amazes you. If you would like to discuss the different psychological theories behind this then please either post questions here or u2u me. I love talking about things of that nature.

Originally posted by XPhiles
since we are all connected together much like an biblical cord, A mothers belief effects the womb. At birth we are effected by our parents thoughts..A baby's instinct and physiology to latch and suck the breast always amazes me lol. But yes, a mothers conscience effects the physiology as well. if the mother believes in God, the new born will feel her comfort as well, much like your mirror theory. We have consciousness way before birth...you may want to correct that in your Imitation Theory.....

I mean by being conscience before birth as being as one in the womb, as being part of the mother.

maybe in the big picture, we are all in a womb, and our birth is death.
Thanks for making me ponder on this

Well I dont know about the mothers beliefs effecting the child. I do believe the genetics can cause some connection to religion. People who may come from stubborn roots, may end up believing it because its in their genetics to stick with what they know. My mother is very stubborn, and I definately got that from her. Its very hard to correct myself, but I do without fail now.

I consciously correct what I feel is having a negative effect on me, depending on the situation.

Overall though, I think personally that you inherit from the genetics of your parents is what effects belief. Certain fear and phobias may be genetically cause, we don't really know for sure. My point is that the consciousness we see is thought process, and thought process does not occur the way we think at such a young age.

The child will have the same chemicals that cause emotion, and same instincts, but over time, consciousness develops. Memory develops. Things we see, like emotional response, does not reflect a consciousness, but a chemical reaction to whats happening around them.

Conscious thoughts, quite simply, can never be displayed physically except in creativity. Creativity is the closest thing we can come to showing we have thought processes, that we are aware. Talking shows we can communicate, but many things communicate without being aware.

Creativity shows that we are aware of whats around us and attempt to show our interpretation of it physically. In the earlier ages of life, creativity is not as alive. A child so young does not create things, it functions to survive. Once it becomes conscious and aware, it finds creativity through a desire to explain what it sees.

Originally posted by spines

It would be like arguing with somebody over something and can only say "I am right because I know I am right". This seems to be what you are doing.

I am just expressing my view obtained through prayer to God. I could be wrong. But can the Bible be wrong, such as in Jeremiah 1:5?

The Bible supports my "independent" view obtained through prayer.

As embryos, if we do not believe in God, then what are we as embryos? Agnostics? Atheists? Nothings?

Originally posted by GreatTech

Originally posted by spines

It would be like arguing with somebody over something and can only say "I am right because I know I am right". This seems to be what you are doing.

I am just expressing my view obtained through prayer to God. I could be wrong. But can the Bible be wrong, such as in Jeremiah 1:5?

The Bible supports my "independent" view obtained through prayer.

Yes, the bible can be wrong. It is a book written by men and revised many many times. Whether or not the original the text was really 'handed down by god' or not does not change the fact that it has been revised and changed many a time by man.

It is a book which should not be the basis for argument in a discussion.

Originally posted by GreatTech
As embryos, if we do not believe in God, then what are we as embryos? Agnostics? Atheists? Nothings?

we dont have beliefs at that stage. We are just functioning creatures. We are living but at the same time we are not completely human.

If God knew us before the womb, we knew Him instantaneously after.

Abortion is a killer, and Infinitely Wrong!!!

Originally posted by GreatTech
If God knew us before the womb, we knew Him instantaneously after.

Abortion is a killer, and Infinitely Wrong!!!

Once again thought...you get your idea that god knows us from the womb from where?

However, it would be interesting to see if, in the prebnatal phase of life, we have basic and rudimentery 'thought'. That is something worth investigating...

And lets not hujack your own thread with talk of abortion. If you would like to debate that I would be happy to start a threat in the appropriate topic.