Originally posted by defcon5
See this right here, this is what started it.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Nothing to see here folks, move along....

Well I dont know why, that image is a rendition of me. I am a Firefighter and I tell people to "there is nothing to see here folks, move along. Please don't assume. I am NOT in a very good mood this week.

no disrespect , LONEGUNMAN .

BUT all i see is pictures of clouds that may be entirely natural

maybee taking some pictures of the alledged aircraft that are " spraying " , with date / timestamps would be helpfull

as pointed out - your current level of paranoid insecurity , which phohibits you even telling us the name of the nearest town to your location is absurd , and unhelpfull

one claim you made on page one :

This is a composite taken of the western sky and is just a small portion, but shows how they are merging.

is hilarious , any parralel trace extending to the horizon will appear to converge

it is known as perspective vanishing point .

and the notion that it has taken you till now to notice this - and that you find it unusual , simply beggars belief

i believe ESSAN has corrrectly identified the weather phenonemon you witnessed and it requires no super secret heavy jets flying paterns over your home

like i said - show us the aircraft - and provide a location so that the flight paterns can be checked

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
no disrespect , LONEGUNMAN .

BUT all i see is pictures of clouds that may be entirely natural


i believe ESSAN has corrrectly identified the weather phenonemon you witnessed and it requires no super secret heavy jets flying paterns over your home

Thks Ape

Question is: who are the real disinformation agents here? Those who point out the perfectly natural explanation behind clouds? Or those who perpetuate myth by insisting that what look like clouds are not clouds at all (but offer no further evidence) ?

Edit: however, if these clouds did start life as aircraft contrails, it's likely the aircraft may have been flying hundreds or even thousands of miles away from where they were photographed, depending on prevailing atmospheric conditions at the time.

[edit on 6-12-2006 by Essan]

Yesterday after noon was blue skys and great cloud formations and
a lot of wind.

Clouds were going in different directions.
Wierd.
Great linticular formations like a linear fan were floating south.
I went around to find a good spot but too many trees in the way.

I kept my camra ready and got a sunset with jet trails, see x on extreme
right.




See I didn't even suggest it was from an electrical flying machine.

Originally posted by StellarX
Who's facts are we talking about here; theirs or ours?

The facts of every single aviation person on this site that I have spoken with, either in a thread or in chat. There is not a single one of us that believes there is the slightest validity to Chemtrails.

Originally posted by StellarX
So funding the Nazi war machine before and during the second world war by US government officials were unknown to the US government?

Um, I guess I must have missed that lesson in history class. Don’t know anything about what your talking about on this one.

Originally posted by StellarX
So what if high ranking officials in the aviation industry knows about this and also understand that they better not talk about it?

That is just the point, they could not contain it to only high ranking officials. High ranking officials are not the guys that would transport, store, pump, weight and balance the supposed chemicals. ATC guys would have to be in the know to direct traffic around where the spraying was going on.

Originally posted by StellarX
What do you think their silence on the issue proves there is no conspiracy?

No, I know there is no conspiracy. One of many reasons is because I see those same persistent contrails over my house, and I know what flights made those contrails, plus I know that there are no chemicals being pumped on those flights beyond what has been pumped on aircraft for the last 70 years: Gas, Oil, Hydraulic fluid, toilet water, and potable water.

Originally posted by StellarX
contrails just did not persist the way they do these days

If you feel that contrails are more persistent then try looking into the changes in aircraft types being flown today as opposed to 10 years ago. Check the difference in the diameters of the engines on those aircraft. You should also check into the changes in the atmospheric conditions over the last decade or so.

Ill tell you what you’ll find about aircraft, that most airlines flew B727's as their mainstay aircraft for a long time, and now are going to more fuel efficient types of aircraft. The main difference there is that the diameter on a 727 engine was about 4 feet, and those three engines where tightly packed on the tail. Now its all 737’s, 757’s, airbuses and the like, they all have much larger diameter engines that run more fuel efficiently and have larger intake fans. They are also almost all now lower-wing and separated by at least 30 or so feet, depending on the aircraft.

Originally posted by StellarX
impossible for lack of knowledge as to how many facilities they have somewhere other than what we do know about?

Well I’ll tell you, in my city there is one, Centcom (MacDill AFB), and that is in fact a tanker base (43rd Air Refueling Group). Those aircraft though are certainly not the ones that are making the persistent contrails that I see heading into TPA.

Originally posted by StellarX
Why presume that the limits of your understanding and knowledge of the air force as a limit on their capabilities?

Because they are not hiding any bases in my town, fact not speculation…

Originally posted by StellarX
Why do they want all those new tankers if the old one's are as brand new as their official flight hours supposedly indicate they are?

Maybe its because those old ones are in fact old. KC-135’s are B707 based aircraft. Civilian aviation does not even fly those old dogs anymore, they were one of the first commercial jet aircraft, they have been around since at least the 50’s.

I have a really good idea, why not learn something about aviation before you challenge me… In the process you’ll start to understand why no person with aviation background believes in chemtrails.

Originally posted by StellarX
As to the ATC question their database can obviously easily be integrated and used to provide flight routes for these aircraft if they are in fact operating at normal commercial altitudes.

Um, well lets see, if there not operating at commercial altitudes, then what are they using? Uncontrolled airspace? Then all your private pilots would also have to know about it as this is where they fly IFR/VFR, they would have to issue advisories to those pilots. Obviously, if they are operating in Controlled airspace then the controllers all would have to know of their existence.

Originally posted by StellarX
Why on earth presume that civilian ATC controllers would be in the know about this?

Because its how the system works…
In controlled airspace the controllers control it, thus its called controlled. In uncontrolled airspace they have to issue advisories to other pilots so they don’t hit the guys spraying. In restricted or military airspace they can do as they wish, hence the fact that a private pilot cannot legally fly near the space shuttle prior to launch or you cannot fly over area 51.

As long as we are discussing it, then why not tell me why they even have restricted airspace to begin with, according to you the military should be able to perform any aerial mission they want, any place they wish, and just lie about it?

Originally posted by StellarX
Why presume their displays would even indicate that these planes are in the sky?

Oh, Duh…
Because they would not want to run a passenger jet into one of them…
You obviously know nothing about how airspace works. I am far from an expert myself, but at least have a general grasp of it, I am sure Snafu can explain it better.

Originally posted by StellarX
The FAA is a federal branch and i can't imagine why it would be so hard to send a official to each ATC center to simply block certain flight profiles from every being registered as being in the sky.

Delta 179 descend and maintain 10000, turn to heading 025, reduce speed to 240.

Rodger, Delta 179 descending… Wait, holy crap there is a plane heading right toward us…

Delta 179 we don’t show any traffic at that location…

Delta 179…

You guess as to why.

Originally posted by StellarX
People who don't know what has been hidden in the past always makes this vapid ignorant claim and i have little respect for anyone who pretends that bigger and more complex 'secrets' than this one have been kept from public knowledge for longer.

Yeah, by folks that have signed away their rights to talk about such things, like military personnel. Civilian aviation folks don’t have to agree to anything along those lines.



[edit on 12/16/2006 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by StellarX
So what if high ranking officials in the aviation industry knows about this and also understand that they better not talk about it?

That is just the point, they could not contain it to only high ranking officials. High ranking officials are not the guys that would transport, store, pump, weight and balance the supposed chemicals. ATC guys would have to be in the know to direct traffic around where the spraying was going on.

All professional meteorologists would also need to be in on it as the cloud formation would impact on forecasting. They would also need to be able to fob off all the amateur meteorologists who be noticing it, as well of course as all the aviation enthusiasts who'd likewise notice what is happening.

The size of the conspiracy would be massive.

[edit on 16-12-2006 by Essan]

please see my new thread entitled :
BBC documentary, Channel 4 documentary into chemtrails

thanks

snoopyuk

Originally posted by Essan
All professional meteorologists would also need to be in on it as the cloud formation would impact on forecasting.

Why would all professional meteorologist have to be in on it? Do you know how badly understood this 'science' is and why do you supposed they would assume something needs to be covered up here? Is it not easy enough ( when you know nothing of commercial aviation fuel mixtures) to assume that something just changed and these trails now last longer than they used to?

Secrecy is only required once everyone is aware that something untoward is in fact taking place...

They would also need to be able to fob off all the amateur meteorologists who be noticing it, as well of course as all the aviation enthusiasts who'd likewise notice what is happening.

Like the thousand who are sending emails and letters to federal authorities about this issue?

The size of the conspiracy would be massive.

So is this evidence that it's not happening or that you do not understand the scale of the conspiracies that have been staged throughout human history?

Stellar

I think this quote from another thread sums this issue up quite well:

I will make you an expert on them. When a aviation engine burns hydrocarbons it puts out exhaust, this exhaust consists of Carbon Dioxide and Hydrogen Oxide (Water). This water in the exhaust saturates the air, and then due to the low temperature at 36'000 feet (-50 celcius) it freezes, this is why there is always a gap between the formation of the trail and the plane, because the water has to cool to freezing point to become visible. So really the trail behind the aircraft is water vapour that has frozen and is called a contrail (condensation trail).

To put it simply a chemtrail is a phase used by paranoics who feel the aeroplane is spraying them with some form of mind control chemical (or something else ridiculous along those lines). Just as everything is to them, it is part of a deep and wide ranging world government conspiracy to hide aliens. When actually it is just water.

I'm sorry to post twice in a row but:

"So is this evidence that it's not happening or that you do not understand the scale of the conspiracies that have been staged throughout human history?"

StellarX, what are you talking about? What conspiracies? What do I not understand? It is ridiculous! Utter madness! You talk about these issues as they are fact - but the main problem is they aren't.

The real problem with the "Chemtrail" (they are actually contrails) issue is that everyone debates whether they are spraying us or not - but the conspiracy theorists never say with what they spray us and for what reason. Come on, I challenge you - tell me!

Do you imply that the aviation fuel industry is in on this then? If the "Chemtrails" stay for days do you think they are oblivious to wind? Ha! You are just SO wrong, but your dillusions make you think your right. You actually think you are being sprayed by the Government!

The things that cause me to side with LoneGunMan on the "chemtrail" issue is that debunkers flood this site with little or no background on ATS whenever chem/con trail are mentioned.

Yell and insult members, then are never seen again until chem/con is mentioned again.

It seems as if the only thing they post on is chem/con; no other interests. That in itself seem sort of conspiratorial. Did you think no one would notice?

Are you saying that I am a "disinfomation agent" - its so just typical, everything that is against your view can be put down to the government. What are they sprayying us with then?Just to point out LoneGunMan, I don't care if your from a family of pilots, neither do I care whether someone related to you died in an aircraft. It doesn't prove the "chemtrails conspiracy" does it. Cut trying to gain some form of moral advantage and get to the point. So you have it all figured out do you! The logistics, the airports, well you tell me then - what are they spraying? I bet 100% that you can't and actually have no idea. You just believe something is out to get you, and today it is the airliners at 36'000 feet.

Originally posted by StellarX
Is it not easy enough ( when you know nothing of commercial aviation fuel mixtures) to assume that something just changed and these trails now last longer than they used to?

Well, if it’s something that is in the gas, perhaps you can explain these two things to me.

1)Why did the weight per gallon of the fuel not change between the two times, years apart, which I worked on aircraft?

2)Considering that all the diesel equipment is pit fueled from the same ground pits that are used to fuel the aircraft (diesel equipment runs on Jet-A as both are kerosene); then why is the ground support equipment not putting out Chemtrails behind them when they are operating?

Originally posted by whaaa
It seems as if the only thing they post on is chem/con; no other interests. That in itself seem sort of conspiratorial. Did you think no one would notice?

Well its funny I see many of the same folks posting in other threads as well, threads that they either are interested in, or have some knowledge to add on the topic. Is it really so odd that peoples interests, jobs, and hobbies tend toward one thing or the other? In this instance most of the nay-sayers I see are folks that post on weather and aviation topics, two fields that are intimately related. Personally I tend to post on things I know something about, aviation, theology, sleep disorders, electronics, etc…

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by Essan
All professional meteorologists would also need to be in on it as the cloud formation would impact on forecasting.

Why would all professional meteorologist have to be in on it? Do you know how badly understood this 'science' is and why do you supposed they would assume something needs to be covered up here? Is it not easy enough ( when you know nothing of commercial aviation fuel mixtures) to assume that something just changed and these trails now last longer than they used to?

If sheets of cirrostratus started forming under conditions in which sheets of cirrostratus would not normal form, questions would be asked .....

So are you suggesting that chemtrails are only laid under the correct atmospheric conditions for cirrostratus to form, thus making them wholly indistinguishable from normal contrails and naturally forming cloud formations?

Originally posted by whaaa
The things that cause me to side with LoneGunMan on the "chemtrail" issue is that debunkers flood this site with little or no background on ATS whenever chem/con trail are mentioned.

Indeed - Defcon 5 and myself have only been around for 2 and a half years - in fact only a year longer than you have

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by whaaa
The things that cause me to side with LoneGunMan on the "chemtrail" issue is that debunkers flood this site with little or no background on ATS whenever chem/con trail are mentioned.

Indeed - Defcon 5 and myself have only been around for 2 and a half years - in fact only a year longer than you have

OI! I was here first

but seriously , WHAA : I would reccomend that you look at the merits of the evidence rather than making descisions based soley on the mere fact that a topic attracts debunkers / skeptics

taking such attitudes to a logical < sic > conclusion - you would be forced t beleve everything merely because some one somewhere questioned it .

It keeps things you don't like to hear away doesn't it. I feel sorry for you to think the government is spraying you with chemicals from planes. You actually believe this. As I stated already there seems to be absolutely no idea with what the people are being sprayed, and more importantly why. Somethings out to get you, todays its the aeroplanes.

Originally posted by superpaul55
I feel sorry for you to think the government is spraying you with chemicals from planes.

And I feel sorry for you that you worship at the clay feet of authority; thinking that they have your best intrest in mind.

Also you jumped to conclusion a little prematurely. I actually don't think the gvt. is spraying ME, and I never said I did. Weather Modification though is a different story isn't it. It's been tried in the past and I have a gut feeling it is being continued today.

[edit on 18-12-2006 by whaaa]