How does Gay marraige effect your relationship?

Originally posted by kinglizard
Should I try to impose my values on others? YES....it's called a democracy.

I can't make sense out of this statement. In a democracy, we definitely DO NOT have the right to impose our beliefs on others, especially if they are religious. Your statement contradicts itself. Besides that, you most definitely do NOT have the right to impose your beliefs on others. What makes you think you have all the right answers? And what makes you think you have the right to tell me how to live?

On top of that, Jesus NEVER spoke out against homosexuality. The Old Testament is the one that bans homosexual relations, but they also condone slavery, incest and rape. Jesus came to say that his way was the New Way, that the OT was history but did not apply any more. He gave us a more compassionatae way to live. And condemning homosexuals was not part of his modus operandi.

Whatever any 2 people consent to doing with each other is their business. And it wouldn't affect my marriage one iota, except that as another person said, we'd have a bigger variety of other married couples to be friends with. How can any straight person be so arrogant as to think they know better than the homosexuals how to live their own lives? Further, how can genuine love between two individuals ever be wrong? I think that's probably the question Jesus would be asking. He wouldn't be busy condemning people who's lifestyles he knew nothing about.

This is slightly off topic and I apologize for that. But I think it's an important thing to remember when we think about how other people's practices in their lives affect our lives. If we find something 'distasteful' that doesn't necessarily mean we have the right to abolish it. Especially if it steps on other people's rights.

Originally posted by forestlady
I can't make sense out of this statement. In a democracy, we definitely DO NOT have the right to impose our beliefs on others, especially if they are religious.

What an excellent post! I would applaud you if I could!

You have voted forestlady for the Way Above Top Secret award.

A little more on Democracy:

Majority Rule and Minority Rights
All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

(Emphasis mine)

Too bad this country is so messed up that the "goodwill" of the majority continues to stomp on the rights of the minorities... :shk:

Originally posted by forestlady
I can't make sense out of this statement. In a democracy, we definitely DO NOT have the right to impose our beliefs on others, especially if they are religious. Your statement contradicts itself. Besides that, you most definitely do NOT have the right to impose your beliefs on others. What makes you think you have all the right answers? And what makes you think you have the right to tell me how to live?

Yes, you try to impose your beliefs, opinions and desires on everyone else in the community. Every time you vote you are trying to impose the things you find important or in-line with your belief structure. How do you impose your will on others in a democracy? By voting.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Too bad this country is so messed up that the "goodwill" of the majority continues to stomp on the rights of the minorities... :shk:

So we should pass laws according to the will of the minority?

Who says BH’s idea of "goodwill" is the right will? I guess BH and some of the minority....

Legalizing something that God considers a sin is not what I consider “goodwill” to his children.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If we find something 'distasteful' that doesn't necessarily mean we have the right to abolish it. Especially if it steps on other people's rights.

How do you feel about NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association)? Or are they too much in the minority for you to support?

I guess we all draw lines somewhere.

Maybe you draw the line at grown Men loving boys because you think there is a victim in the relationship. Maybe I draw a line at legalizing homosexual marriage because I believe both people would be victims of sin.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
So we should pass laws according to the will of the minority?

No. I didn't say that or imply that. Majority does rule, as long as it doesn't restrict the rights of the minority and that's what you're supporting. Restricting the rights of the minority because you're uncomfortable with it for whatever reason.

How do you feel about NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association)?

Well, I don't know what that has to do with the subject, but I certainly don't equate NAMBLA to homosexuality any more than I equate beastiality or marrying one's horse or car to homosexuality.

As to how I personally feel about NAMBLA, I have elaborated here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Maybe I draw a line at legalizing homosexual marriage because I believe both people would be victims of sin.

According to you, they already are...

Preventing them from marrying does not make their sin less in your eyes. I think an adult of sound mind should be allowed to decide for himself (just as you do) whether he is sinning or not and, once decided, I think it should be his choice to sin or not, as long as there is no victim. I don't think you should be the sin police because you think you have it right with God somehow... Because you think you know the mind of God.

You make the choice whether or not to sin in your life. You choose whom to marry and how to raise your children. I don't think you have the right to make that choice for everyone. We're all adults and capable of deciding how we live our lives (just as you do). We don't need someone telling us the 'right' way to do things. I wonder how you would like it of someone were imposing their belief system on you, your relationship and how you raise your children by law.

And before you say they are, no one is forcing you to be involved in a gay marriage. No one is imposing their beliefs on you. YOU get to choose. For yourself as well as for everyone else, apparently. Because you are straight and white, you are free to make your life pretty much exactly how you want it. I just think we all should have the same option.

I think it's the height of selfishness for a person (and you are just one of many millions) to freely choose what they want for their lives and then insist somehow that their lifestyle should apply to everyone. I think it's terrible for you (and the others) to pursue happiness in your lives, in the way you choose, entitled to love, family and joy and then prevent others from doing the same because they don't do it in exactly the same way you do. It's the height of arrogance, I'm sorry to say.

I don't think it's any of your business who I sleep with or what my marriage is about. That's between me and my spouse.

But I understand that you think it IS your business for some reason. I just hope that someday gay marriage is legalized so that ALL people will be treated equally under the law despite what the majority says.

Benevolent Heretic, thanks for the compliment. BTW, I liked your quote on democracry, very good.

Simply put, you cannot use the Bible to base laws on. It is blatantly unconstitutional. You know, SEPARATION of church and state. Or are you against the Constitution?

Yes we get your position BH. You don’t think I have a right to vote for things that restrict others and I think I have a right to vote for things that are in-line with my beliefs (religious or otherwise).

Done and done, see you at the voting booth.

Originally posted by forestlady
Simply put, you cannot use the Bible to base laws on. It is blatantly unconstitutional. You know, SEPARATION of church and state. Or are you against the Constitution?

Oh Geez, lol Separation of Church and State has NOTHING to do with my right to vote for things I find important....the Constitution supports my right to do just that.

Please give me an "approved" list of beliefs, morals and values that I can use to formulate my opinions.



[edit on 11-11-2006 by kinglizard]

You have voted Benevolent Heretic for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

You have voted forestlady for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more votes this month.

My third vote would have gone to KingLizard if I could
vote for him.


BH and forestlady have made good points about
the protection of minorites and not imposing beliefs on others.

KingLizard has made a good point by pointing out that,
in a full democracy, you would be voting to impose your beliefs
on others, and said views would be imposed simply because
they would be the majority view.


However, since our country was established to have a Democratic
system, it was also set-up to restrict the negatives of full democracy.

As a heterosexual man, gay marriage is good for my relationship.

I live in London, and property prices being what they are, affording a home is normally difficult unless you have two bread winners. And then there are improvements to consider. Gay couples, not having children, are going to have more spare cash available to improve their properties, more certainly than single gay people, and gay people as everyone knows are statistically more likely to favour stylish kitchens, classy bathrooms and modern funky looks. The increase in the number of gay couples, increases the supply of cool flats on the market, which is good news when I'm looking for a place with my girlfriend. This means when we find somewhere, there is less chance I;ll have to tackle any major DIY jobs, which is a good thing, since my DIY skills are so bad I tend to put off, mess up, or leave half-finished, any household fixes that need doing. This in turn can cause friction between us, so anything that minimizes the chance of that happening, is a good thing for us.

Therefore, gay marriage is good for my relationship.



[edit on 11-11-2006 by nowthenlookhere]

It's a shame, all through my life, I've heard that all men are crated equal. But they were wrong. I thought I was an equal to any other man. Buy I'm not apparently. Why, because of orientation I am not as much a man as the person sitting next to me. It's a Damn Shame.
If You cut me, will I not bleed?
If you persecute me, will I not feel sorrow?
I am as much of a man as any other.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by Ford Farmer]

It will affect other married relationships because it cheapens the value of their marriage in my my view. Hundreds of years if not thousands of years of culture are over turned by a modern liberal concept to make a small number of people happy.

Then there is the legal and tax implications and trust me there will be increased taxes as gay unions lead to a number of new obligations for the state to pay for.

how would it cheapen your relationship? Are you not still married to the one you love? another good question is what is marriage worth to you? And how did It get so high up on your relationship priority list?

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
It's a shame, all through my life, I've heard that all men are crated equal. But they were wrong. I thought I was an equal to any other man. Buy I'm not apparently. Why, because of orientation I am not as much a man as the person sitting next to me.

Sinning does not make you less of a man...in fact it makes you human. We all sin and are ALL worthy of forgiveness in God's eyes if only we ask and find salvation in Jesus.



This doesnt mean that we should pass laws that legalize sin but you are not a lesser man.

My thing, is that if it won't hurt anyone, why not? Yes some will get pissy, but so what, I am getting pissy that The thing That I want, something that is my birthright, is being denied.

The United States, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, is NOT a democracy, in the truest sense of the term, but a Republic, based on democratic principles; by which it is encumbant upon each citizen to excercise the right to vote on matters which effect the society by rule of law.

It is therefore the duty of each citizen to cast their vote in accordance with the basic principle of any healthy society:

Provide the Greatest Good for the Greatest Number.

In a pluralistic society such as ours, a wide range of beliefs, opinions, and yes, prejudices, may exist. They cannot help but to. However, when called to determine the law by which All must abide, we must learn to put aside our personal foibles and fears, and consider what is best for All.

History has time and again shown us that the society which tolerates the institutionalization of discrimination, on any basis, ultimately fails. The society which, by writ of law, establishes an underclass within itself, for no better reason than mere superstitious Belief, sows the cancerous seeds of its own moral and literal demise.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
My thing, is that if it won't hurt anyone, why not? Yes some will get pissy, but so what, I am getting pissy that The thing That I want, something that is my birthright, is being denied.

I think I can see it from your point of view and am so sorry that you feel like a second class citizen because you can't marry the person you love but I, as do most Americans, don't believe sinning should be a legalized birthright. Obviously you don't see it as a sin so my words probably seem unfair and bigoted. Truly I don't mean it that way, I love you as I do all of God's children. My sins are as bad as your sins as are all sins.....

Reading through the thread,i can see where King Lizard is coming from. But I also believe that if two gay people want to be married,let them. To each his own. I mean,gay people dont choose to be gay,they are born that way as we are born attracted to the opposite sex. We humans after all do have free will.

While this is an issue which needs addressing,i think that we are spending too much time worrying about smaller things like this instead of the big issues that affect everyone. i.e, war, taxes, economy, genocide, minimum wage.

Originally posted by kinglizard
I, as do most Americans, don't believe sinning should be a legalized birthright. Obviously you don't see it as a sin so my words probably seem unfair and bigoted. Truly I don't mean it that way, I love you as I do all of God's children. My sins are as bad as your sins as are all sins.....

What about gluttany, lust, greed, cheating, gambling, divorce, what about almost everything?

It seems like you're a hypocrit to me. As you said, your sins are as bad as his, so WTF would you want to restrict this one sin? Why this one? Go after all the other horrible # that's happening in the world. MAirrage isn't under attack by gays, it's under attack by divorce!

Right and wrong are subjective, and strict dogmatic religions are the worst thing that could have ever happened to the world. I just hope that one day you'll see how brainwashed you are. Maybe then you and everyone like you will start to make some sense.

And basing your life on a book written thousands of years ago by MEN and taking it as the word of god is definately not a wise decision.

IMO it is not a sin, I did not choose to be gay, I believe that God created everything, the way he sees fit. This includes homosexuality. Also I do not find what you say to be bigotry, from your posts, It seems that you do not have a problem with Gay folks just the way we live.

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
My thing, is that if it won't hurt anyone, why not? Yes some will get pissy, but so what, I am getting pissy that The thing That I want, something that is my birthright, is being denied.

I think I can see it from your point of view and am so sorry that you feel like a second class citizen because you can't marry the person you love but I, as do most Americans, don't believe sinning should be a legalized birthright. Obviously you don't see it as a sin so my words probably seem unfair and bigoted. Truly I don't mean it that way, I love you as I do all of God's children. My sins are as bad as your sins as are all sins.....

KL, the point is, that in a society ruled By Law, not by religious belief, Your "sins", however atrocious they may be, do not prevent You from sharing, fully, in the benefits provided by the society to your fellow citizens!

You believe homosexuality to be a "sin". A fellow citizen of the Islamic faith may believe that to covert to Christianity from Islam is also a "sin"; under the Law, you both have every right to those beliefs. But. If we are to function as a society neither of these beliefs should be codified into law such that they impinge upon the rights of ANY citizen to equal treatment under the law.

Under the law of the land a gay couple should be granted the same rights, privliges and responsibilities available to any other citizen, by committing the "sin" of marriage; just as any citizen should be granted the right to commit the "sin" of converting from Islam to Christianity if they so choose.