It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Do Americans Actually Care About The Iraqi People?

page: 4
0
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 03:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by pugachev
The better question is whether or not the Iraqi people care for the Iraqi people. Many of them don't seem to care for their own lives or the lives of others.

[edit on 11/8/06 by pugachev]


BINGO!

It's almost to the point where you choose one murderer over another...how do you care about that? If there was some heroic peace minded people in Iraq leading the cause of tolerance and freedom then Americans would care more, but right now it's just tough to back anyone.

I'd say Americans care about Iraqis but not a deep down caring. There are no large grass root movements that I see to raise money for Iraq. Yet, we have sent Billions (!) of dollars to them to rebuild schools and infrastructure...I haven't seen anyone protesting that.

It's tough as Americans to relate to Iraq culturally so the empathy just isn't there like say if it was Britain, Australia, Japan, or Europe. I also don't hear or even sense it's a racist issue. Iraq and most of the Middle East just doesn't make sense to most Westeners, it's like looking back in time.

It doesn't help either that the American media is pathetic. Bombs, guns, politics, gossip, terrorists...and nothing on what Iraq and it's three different groups of people are fighting about. The self-absorbed and workaholic average American doesn't have the time or a clue as to what the Iraqi people are even like or care since they aren't being educated by the media. All they see is violence...why would you care about people when all they are doing is actively trying to kill each other?




posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 03:47 PM
link   
Do I care about the Iraqi people?

Hmm.. mostly I want Iraq to be successful so they dont wage ultimate jihad on Michigan.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 06:04 PM
link   
Ram, there's a slowing growing movement in the US that is just deadly tired of the US military being used a security forces for major campaign contributors like the energy industry. We've spent over a trillion dollars since 1990 defending the Middle East oil fields and have gotten double/triple the gas/energy prices now since 1990.

I'd like to see every US serviceman home from overseas defending the borders of our country. We certainly don't need them defending Europe or Japan any more. That trillion dollars would have eliminated the deficit and fully modernized our forces with money left over little things like full health care for veterans, job training programs other domestic needs like infrastructure and developing renewable energy sources.

I think after 60 years, it's time for the USA to step down as world policeman and let the other young nations of the world work out their own problems. Lets move the UN to some small island some where outside the US. Get out of NATO and all the other obsolete military treaty organization and fix the major problems at home and in our backyard.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 06:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by Astygia


Well, would there be any hell if we hadn't invaded them in the first place? Doesn't matter if you think of them as "resistance", "insurgents", or "terrorists". This is a mess that didn't need to be made.

[edit on 8-11-2006 by Astygia]


Iraq was already hell unless you were a sunni and supported sadam's regime. ANd Actually the north and south are doing well its the sunnis who now find themselves on the short hand of the stick and have decided not to play nicely. That and foriegn terrorists and neighboring nations "iran syria hmhm" that don't want Iraq to succeed as a democracy.

It is a huge mistake to percieve iraq as peaceful before the big bad coalition came around. Before news wasn't free flowing now it is. Why do you think the #es and kurds have formed death squads? To get some pay back for 30 years of brutal repression... THe sunnis once fighting to save their control of iraq are now fighting to save themselves. THats why the gov has to crack down on the those death squads. The sunnis are war weary now and only continue fighting because they know what they did to the other 80+-% of the population and now have to answer for it.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 09:13 PM
link   
Astygia - as always, thoughtful and humane responses.

However, there's a sad bunch of ideologues clinging to some ideas that were, even when new, pretty suspect, rotten and stinking, and are now well past their sell-by date.

For example, the idea of 'liberating' Iraq. Believing the idea that Americans shed blood to liberate Iraq might make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and prop up the misplaced notion that the US supports democracy and freedom around the world, but paying attention to the facts of the situation will dispel this illusion.

The war had a number of purposes. To stop Saddam trading his oil in Euros - a significant threat to US liquidity. To establish control over global oil reserves. To provide money to the military-industrial complex and a continued reason for its existence. To provide for the asset stripping of the country and allow for the "outsourcing" of its infrastructure. Two examples: Monsanto have had it written into Iraqi law that certain of their seeds must be used in agriculture and even that Iraqis are forbidden to save seed for sowing on their own land. The other example is that in the immediate aftermath of the invasion, a cellphone company - I think from Qatar - who restored coverage in Baghdad, were kicked out because the CPA wanted a US firm to get an exclusive contract. One last reason for war: to remove a threat to Israel. This last, in fact, follows from the neocon agenda as outlined in Rebuilding America's Defenses and A Clean Break - Securing the Realm.

It's also possible that the war had the secondary purpose of making a sad group of men feel better about themselves. I'm talking about the chickenhawks of the Bush cabinet.

Whatever... liberating the Iraqis was never an issue for the people truly responsible for the war, to the point that Rumsfeld (war criminal), in a pre-war planning meeting, threatened to sack the next general who wanted to spend more time on planning the aftermath of the war.

It's also likely that dismembering the country has been Plan B since before the invasion, and has edged closer and closer to being Plan A ever since. In 2003 a covert campaign to sow dissension between Sunni and Shia (who were uniting to fight the invaders) was launched and has met with considerable success. It might be noteworthy that Saddam's pronouncements have been consistent in drawing attention to this fact and to exhorting his countrymen to stop killing each other and fight the occupiers.

As for the death squads, it's at the very least an interesting coincidence that they're run by the Iraqi government and were trained and funded by the US under the supervision of John Negroponte, who performed an identical service for the US in El Salvador. The US is renowned world wide for its training and support of death squads, in Central and South America, in Haiti, Greece and elsewhere.

To answer the question of the thread... there's obviously a wide range of feeling on the subject. It has been demonstrated in the answers to this thread that some Americans feel the suffering of the Iraqi people very deeply and are very concerned with the part that their own government has played in prolonging and intensifying it. There are others who view the situation through the ideological goggles provided by their media, in which "sacrificing their lives" for "freedom" allows them to share victimhood or claim a spurious sense of moral superiority. The shaky intellectual foundations of such moral pretensions are unexamined and violently upheld if threatened.

And then there are those who just don't give a toss.

An argument was made earlier in the thread about the Christian majority in the US being more "caring" than the British secular population. This is, to me, quite risible. It shouldn't take more than a moment's thought to come up with many, many examples of allegedly Christian people who support bloodshed at the slightest excuse. Bush and Blair both, for example, profess to be fully-paid up members of a religious sect one of whose commandments is "thou shalt not kill".

I have to say that UK society is primarily secular and I think it's a good thing. Christians certainly don't have a monopoly on caring for others and there are plenty of allegedly Christian people who honour the morality of their Saviour more in the breach than in the observance. One of the few things in the run-up to the 2003 invasion that gave me any hope was the growing opposition to the war, and the subsequent sense that we shouldn't be in Iraq. There was a marvelous occasion when on a radio 4 'phone-in, one caller referred to the recent kidnapping of a UK citizen who was working as a civilian contractor (for once, this is not a euphemism for "mercenary") out in Iraq. The caller made the point that we were dropping leaflets asking Iraqis to look out for this guy and to inform the authorities of any suspicions they might have that Iraqis were holding him. He said, "do we really expect these people, who lose dozens of their own citizens every day, to drop everything and look for one of our guys who shouldn't be there in the first place?"

It seemed like an honest attempt to put oneself in the other guy's shoes, and this is something, I have to say, that US citizens are extraordinarily bad at, if I may allow myself an extraordinarly sweeping generalisation. I was working in the US during the China Spy Plane crisis. I heard a lot of angry talk about how if the Chinese didn't give the plane and its crew back, the US should invade/bomb the #### out of the place/nuke Beijing, or whatever. A simple inversion of the situation seemed to be beyond the mental abilities of most of these people. (Imagine a Russian plane flying close to US airspace: when intercepted by US jets, it causes a mid-air collision resulting in the loss of a US pilot and his jet. What kind of an uproar would there be? If the Russians DEMANDED the return of their spyplane and its crew, how accommodating do you think the US would be?)

Astygia - you made the point earlier in the thread that the suffering of the Iraqi people was hijacked by those who wanted to use it simply to bash the Administration. Well... you're right, but I might make a small plea of mitigation: if one feels that one's leaders have brought shame on the country and acquired it some seriously bad karma by waging an unjustifiable war, it might be easy for them to lose focus on the Iraqis because they're focusing on the Administration and its sins. I have to say that I am really dismayed by Blair and his unctuous assertion that "the oil of Iraq (loooooong pause) ... will be held in trust (another loooooong pause) for the people of Iraq." Thinking about that for too long makes me want to bite my own head off. And when I see pictures of an Iraqi guy holding the body of a child whose legs have been reduced to strips of spaghetti, or of a hideously deformed foetus, the result of depleted uranium pollution, my first thought is not of compassion for the Iraqis themselves, but of anger at the politicians that brought about these circumstances.

Hmm... I'm rather tired and I don't think I've expressed myself too clearly on this. I hope you get what I mean, though.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 09:24 PM
link   
Does the American people care about the Iraqi people

They did . . . in the beginning of the invasion when it was for liberation

Right now people careless and has grown tired of Iraq and the war on terror.

That is why we have a change of color in Congress this elections.

That will tell you how people feels about many issues including Iraq and the Iraqi people.


Ram

posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 09:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by crgintx
Ram, there's a slowing growing movement in the US that is just deadly tired of the US military being used a security forces for major campaign contributors like the energy industry. We've spent over a trillion dollars since 1990 defending the Middle East oil fields and have gotten double/triple the gas/energy prices now since 1990.

I'd like to see every US serviceman home from overseas defending the borders of our country. We certainly don't need them defending Europe or Japan any more. That trillion dollars would have eliminated the deficit and fully modernized our forces with money left over little things like full health care for veterans, job training programs other domestic needs like infrastructure and developing renewable energy sources.

I think after 60 years, it's time for the USA to step down as world policeman and let the other young nations of the world work out their own problems. Lets move the UN to some small island some where outside the US. Get out of NATO and all the other obsolete military treaty organization and fix the major problems at home and in our backyard.


60 years? you mean second worldwar?


Was it not in 1947 CIA started running world-operations?
The only conclusion I can come up with is that...This is important. very important..

"Do Americans Actually Care About The Iraqi People?"
No its the CIA. And has been since 47'

those two towers... Was not brought down by cavemen. (well in a sense it was) we can agree on that - That whoever is behind the two towers collapse - Is the work of cavemen.

I think you need some urgent Disclosure inside America RIGHT NOW!

It's not the will of the American people - It's the CIA - End of story.

A central Intelligence. (sound just like a brain to me) You know I wrote about the Think-tanks earlier... yes - im a flood of words.

Where else should the - New world order HQ be?
C E N T R A L means center.. Zodiac. intelligence.

You have SO many agencies over there In America... Where is the voice of the people? besides being choken...By Media crap... crap craps.

It's high alert politics going on there... There MUST be some intelligence behind it.
Could we agree that It might be the Central Intelligence? It's taking over the Intelligence of the people?

So maybe thats why Americans does not care much about Iraqi people cause It's really non of their business... It's CIA business again and again and again since the end of world war 2.

And operation Paper-clip (what ever)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I don't give a damn...

Im just watching this INSANE theater being performed... I have always been interrested in knowing how things function, and unfortunatly also why things function. I guess this is the end of my interrest.

It's not even interresting anymore - It's God damn disgusting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever since I saw black and white movies back in early 80's - From Nazi germany..Where thousands of dead bodies where pushed like a flood - towards a big grave.
I have no words for it... I know it's wrong.. Im so sorry - I knew it back then - And I believe It today... It's wrong.

If you can realize there is a difference between then and now, then it's just a matter of turning the symbols upside down.

Quiet large backyard anyway.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 10:33 PM
link   
I think most Americans dont care one way or the other about the Iraq population.

They do care however that our soldiers are getting killed and wounded ever day.

In America it is taught in the history of the nation that the people FOUGHT for their freedom against a unbeateable occuping force (the British). These people, who were not a super trained military, won the freedom of Independence with their will, and their Blood.

The Iraq population has had a opportunity that the people of America never had back then, and that is the most powerful nation on the planet cleared the path of government domination for them. And these people did not even rise up to take control of their gift. They simply went about life, expecting somehow that a magic wand would grant them all their wishes.

Now, five years later, and too many American casualties, they are still in a mess.

No, Americans in general do not care about the Iraq population, why should they?

Even those who disagree with the reasons America went there, agree that these people do not seek Freedom and self rule, fore they as a population would not rise up and fight to earn it.

America gave the greatest gift they could, the blood of a nation. And these people sure as hell have shown they dont deserve it.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 11:31 PM
link   
I think some people do care, but I also think it's irrelevant.

As Americans, we're not -supposed- to be able to relate to people in Iraq, which is why people don't care at times. We can't understand their way of thinking, their situation, their beliefs... Which is why I don't believe in messing with other peoples in the first place.

But to stay on topic, I think there's a balance people feel, between the lives of Iraqui people and the welfare of the US soldiers and economy.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 11:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by Strangerous
One thing has bothered me for some time and with all the Rumsfeld / Democrats discussion going on it's even more concerning:

Do Americans actually care about the Iraqis? - the ordinary people who are struggling to find work, feed and clothe their families, and suffering extreme violence?

In the UK the running death toll mentioned in Iraq nearly always has two parts - our dead and wounded and the dead & wounded of Iraq.

From what I can see of US media and US opinions it seems that the US troops' casualties are the prime concern in the US - perhaps just 20% of the time the Iraq toll is mentioned too.

I know the toll in US dead and wounded has been heavy and troop casualties are a hot topic but don't Iraqis count too?



Lets just say what you really want to hear...... No we dont care about the innocent Iraqis that are losing there lifes.... Is that the answer you were wanting to hear?



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 05:46 PM
link   
Interesting responses thanks guys.

I know that not all Americans are immune to the Iraqi's suffering but there does seem to be an 'us & them' strand to many of the responses. This is evident in the UK too but perhaps not to the same extent.

It certainly seems that the American media and politicos are more concerned about the US dead than the Iraqi (this is understandable but to not mention the Iraqi dead seems callous to me), there's a cause & effect dimension here; do they not mention the Iraqis because the majority of US people don't really care, or don't the majority of US people really care because it's not mentioned?

I was hoping someone would say it was mentioned more in the press / NPR / general conversation than the US media I see - perhaps it is?

And to the poster who said 'it's only 3,000 dead' - that strikes me as really callous! There's what 100K wounded on top of that? How many thousands of families is that ruined?

The US has bombed and invaded two countries, dragged us and other nations into the Crazy Crusade, killed & maimed many, many people etc etc because 3,500 people were killed in the twin towers so how it can be 'only 3,000' is beyond me!



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 07:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by Strangerous

The US has bombed and invaded two countries, dragged us and other nations into the Crazy Crusade, killed & maimed many, many people etc etc because 3,500 people were killed in the twin towers...


That I would have to totally disagree with. Killing thousands for 3,500 does sound silly. Yet, how many died in WWII just because Germany invaded Poland? There was a greater cause behind the war other than one attack. Bush has stirred the pot with his rhetoric and poorly thought out gamble to bring Western ideals to Iraq . The terrorists/radical muslims are bad, there is no way around that. I would never want to live in a country ruled by their intolerance and irrational whims. This war is a war of culture, if Russia had won the Cold War...they would be the greater target of Muslim wrath. If China assumes world domination...they will be the target of Muslim wrath.

This war is more complex than what happened on 9/11. It's a historical war of beliefs, perceptions, and intolerance...I doubt it will end with the US pulling out of Iraq. I doubt it would end if the US were to mysteriously disappear from the planet (sounds like a good movie plot). There is a greater cause than two buildings and 3500 innocent people dying.

Any innocent death be it 1 or 3,000 is a waste, but I have a feeling there is a lot more to come unless we all figure something out soon instead of hiding our heads in the Bible, Koran, television, sports, or the daily grind of life. We have the technology to allow our irrational ideas to end our existance...building a Star Wars missle defense system won't safe anyone. Ending irrational thought will, either that will happen with peaceful words or war.



[edit on 10/11/06 by Atomic]



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 08:16 PM
link   
Wouldn't disagree with any of that mate - I was only trying to put the 'only 3,000 dead' comment in context of the reason/justification for the aggressive acts carried out by the US/UK under the banner of the war on clutter - sorry terror (I get my abstract concepts mixed up)



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 08:18 PM
link   
Just cause we killed more than they killed ours is irrelevant. You kill as many as possible before they kill many of ours. Was it fair that the Japanese suffered more casualties than America during WW2? Whoever says war is fair?



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 08:20 PM
link   
Sorry for being sussinct, do American's care about Iraqi's? Looking at the election results, I would say yes, they do.



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 08:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by intrepid
Sorry for being sussinct, do American's care about Iraqi's? Looking at the election results, I would say yes, they do.


looking at it from your point of view . . . one that even I didn't see before you mentioned, I will say that you are right.



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 08:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by intrepid
Sorry for being sussinct, do American's care about Iraqi's? Looking at the election results, I would say yes, they do.


Ah but do they, or do they just care about Americans dying in Iraq?
That's what I'm trying to get at the bottom of.
All the campaign speeches / ads I saw (obviously I didn't see that many of them!) seemed to mention the US dead and not the Iraqi.



[edit on 10/11/2006 by Strangerous]



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 08:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by Strangerous
All the campaign speeches / ads I saw (obviously I didn't see that many of them!) seemed to mention the US dead and not the Iraqi.
[edit on 10/11/2006 by Strangerous]


Well actually Americans are worry about our troops in Iraq but also doing something about Iraq and the situation in Iraq will actualy may help the Iraqi people.

So voting Democratic can actually help both our troops and the Iraqi people.


Or that is what people are hopeful about.



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 09:04 PM
link   
You have voted rich23 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1  2  3   >>

log in

join