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IDF Shell Misses Target by 1KM and Kills Women and Children

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posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by spinstopshere
First of all have you even looked at the movie that was at the start of this thread Obsession. It is a pretty powerful movie if you would actually watch it. It shows the true goals of the "Freedom Fighters". Maybe Israel wouldn't be blowing buildings up if muslims stopped going on to buses and blowing them up.


Of course people living in Palestine would be eager to see the total destruction of Israel, I won't deny that. But don't pretend as if all Palestinians are those Freedom Fighters you describe. Most Palestinian people just want to live, which is impossible because of the current situation. Piece by piece their land is annexed to the state of Israel. I cannot agree with that and since we're living democratic countries I am allowed to have that opinion.


Originally posted by spinstopshere
And what do you mean by Illegal land are you talking about the State of Israel itself because the UN declared it a nation along time ago so it is not illegal.


It's not illegal, and Israelis have the right to live their, yet they have no right to annex any foreign territories, such as the Golan Heights -which they are ought to give back to Syria according to UN resolutions - and to commit all those other crimes.




posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Mdv2

Of course people living in Palestine would be eager to see the total destruction of Israel, I won't deny that. But don't pretend as if all Palestinians are those Freedom Fighters you describe. Most Palestinian people just want to live, which is impossible because of the current situation. Piece by piece their land is annexed to the state of Israel. I cannot agree with that and since we're living democratic countries I am allowed to have that opinion.



It's not illegal, and Israelis have the right to live their, yet they have no right to annex any foreign territories, such as the Golan Heights -which they are ought to give back to Syria according to UN resolutions - and to commit all those other crimes.




When did i ever say all Palestinian's are terrorist. Many are just normal people who want a normal life.I meant the ones who go on Israeli buses and blow them up are terrorists and yet people still call them freedom fighters. I am sorry if i wasn't specific enough.

And I was just seeing if you thought the people of Israel had no right to exist because some terrorists feel that way. And yes they should give back all foeign territory.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by spinstopshere

When did i ever say all Palestinian's are terrorist. Many are just normal people who want a normal life.I meant the ones who go on Israeli buses and blow them up are terrorists and yet people still call them freedom fighters. I am sorry if i wasn't specific enough.



How many have there been? 100 or so? There wasn't any suicide bombings for a long time until just the other day when a young woman took her own life injured a couple of Israeli soldiers. Many of them didn't even detonate their bombs. Out of over a million people about a hundred or so have actually done this and they have been given a reputation of raising their kids to be suicide bombers etc etc. For someone to take their own life like that , there must be a great desperation or hopelessness.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 04:45 PM
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Thepieman I know that and you know that but average Israeli and even some American & Euro Jews constantly state that Palestinians are trained to hate, meanwhile they too are trained to hate arabs just as much, if they are told from birth that arabs just want to "Push them to the sea", "eradicate them" or whatever other myths they are told. They also learn to deny any wrongdoing from sites such as MEMRI,CAMERA,Jewishvirtuallibrary all make Israel out in a positive light and Palestine in a negative light.


Israelis as a whole (population) do not support the wars (most of the wars anyways) it is like our Republican and Democrats, there is a war opposition. In education there is absolutely no doubt that children are brought to think of Palestinians as dogs. Same happens in Palestine as well. There was an EXCELENT program (it might still be in operation?) they place Israeli teens, Palestinian teens in a summer camp. At first they HATE each other. Then they do co-op missions, repelling and such.. well by the end they are best friends, they learned to trust and to like their neighbors. Know what the sad part was though? At the end, gathered together the Israelis said they would still die to kill the Palestinians, and the Palestinians would still die to kill a few Israelis. They said that in front of their friends and no one reacted but the interviewer, it may just that in that area of the world.. where you grow up in so much violence and hate.. that your mind is permanently set in this mode.. that you have to defend your honor and your nation... even if it means killing a friend. Sad really.

Israelis have all kinds of ethnicity's in their armed forces as well. Jews from all over the world came to that land, including native semitic Jews, Russian Jews, North African Jews, Italian Jews, North European Jews, Saxon Jews, many ethnicity's. When you watched them gathering on the borders of Lebanon before the invasion you could see a few Arabs as well (dark skinned Semitics, Jews are typically lighter skinned Semitics, same dark hair) Not saying the majority of the IDF is Arab, far from it, just saying there are Arabs within their ranks.





You are wrong, they do have resources, they have natural Gas, they have some but not a lot of Oil and most importantly they have Water, which Israel btw takes most of. According to the many spinners of myth on the Jewish side of this whole affair I will use Mark Twain as the example. "I went to Palestine and saw nothing but barren wasteland" , well if the Israelis could do it with other peoples help then so can the Palestinians with some help, and its an even smaller area of land so it should be even easier and faster to develop. Thats just an excuse to say its barren.


I apologize for forgetting the water. In the Middle East water is gold, and soon in the future it will be water wars, not border and oil wars. Nations like Turkey understand that, so they built dams to lower the flow of water through southern territories while keep vast reserves. Why? To sell. Israel will never give up the water, even if Palestine becomes free from Israel and has their own state, Israel will never let them have control over the water sources. Palestine could become fertile with irrigation, tourism, all kinds of industry including high tech industries like Israel.. but you can say that about any nation. That fact remains, no one is willing to help them.




NO thats wrong, it didn't start with the kidnappings, it started with Israel bombing that family on the beach and the denial of responsibility and then killing people 2 days later soon after. Thats how the cease fire ended. They keep claiming they were so nice to leave Gaza and blah blah blah but they never left.


When the investigation finished the bomb blast pattern and the scraps from the remains determined it was a bomb produced in Palestine.




The Palestinians deserve an independant state 10x more then Israel does. I cannot blame them for not wishing to be part of the israelis. They can coexist just fine if they really wanted to. Its obvious Israel does not want to.


I don't see why they deserve the land 10x more then Israel aside from the fact they where displaced.. not logical grounds to be rewarded with something? They could co-exist, and Israel would only permit it if the government was willing to do as Israel said. Kind of like us in Iraq.




So why do you think that is? Don't you think it would be because Israel would use it as an excuse for an attack or possibly UN action if they took them in and something happens from their side of the border. The Palestinians should not need to flee their country. They belong in their homeland , not in Lebanon, Not Egypt, Not Jordan. The Israelis want them to leave, they believe the Palestinians are Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese, remember, they actually believe that Romans named Palestine as a mockery, they do not believe the Palestinians are a real race of people. This is a ruse to make them leave the country.


Well, actually it is simply because they don't like the Palestinians. Everywhere the Palestinians go, they cause unrest, murder, poverty, crime and unstabilizing of governments. They are despised by both Lebanon and Jordan for that reason. Why do they deserve a homeland? .. You are preaching nationalism, which is exactly what their problem is, that and of course no one wants them. Palestinians are Arab Semitics, they are in no way a race, or an ethnicity for that matter. They simply lived there, then where moved out. Israel would love it if they would leave, but more likely they would rather them die off. more convenient. they don't need to insult their heritage to get them to leave, their tanks, bombs, missiles and soldiers do enough to make anyone want to leave, they simple cannot.



I don't want to argue either but I don't like being lied to (Not meaning you) and I don't appreciate someone trying to pass bs.


I don't know who was trying to pass BS? .. If you mean me, by all means debate it with me instead of assume I am full of crap. I look at the same statistics as you, we come to different conclusions, as I am sure we would about anything political. Even the times I do agree with you though, you find ways to disagree with me.. so I don't know maybe you just don't want to hear anything I say at all. But thanks for debating anyways, it makes the site more enjoyable. And though we may differ on the issues regarding Israel, I don't think we could call each others opinions BS...



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 04:48 PM
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MDV2




Of course people living in Palestine would be eager to see the total destruction of Israel, I won't deny that. But don't pretend as if all Palestinians are those Freedom Fighters you describe. Most Palestinian people just want to live, which is impossible because of the current situation. Piece by piece their land is annexed to the state of Israel. I cannot agree with that and since we're living democratic countries I am allowed to have that opinion


What if it where the other way around? What if Palestinians where suppressing the Israelis? Would you still support Palestine of Israel? Just wondering if it is because Israel, being strong, is suppressing the weak is why you come to these conclusions.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN

How many have there been? 100 or so? There wasn't any suicide bombings for a long time until just the other day when a young woman took her own life injured a couple of Israeli soldiers. Many of them didn't even detonate their bombs. Out of over a million people about a hundred or so have actually done this and they have been given a reputation of raising their kids to be suicide bombers etc etc. For someone to take their own life like that , there must be a great desperation or hopelessness.





Wow only a hundred. Oh okay since there were only a hundred it is no longer important because it was only a hundred explosions. Watch the movie Obsession and you will see that there are more than 1,000 other people ready to blow up a bus at a moments notice.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by spinstopshere
Wow only a hundred. Oh okay since there were only a hundred it is no longer important because it was only a hundred explosions. Watch the movie Obsession and you will see that there are more than 1,000 other people ready to blow up a bus at a moments notice.


If the Israeli government is aware of those supposed 1000 suicide bombers and still does what they do , then it would appear to me that its not a big concern to them, so if it doesn't concern them why should it concern me? Thats for the people of israel to worry about and to let their government know that provocation will only lead to their security being lessened. Following the murder of those people in Beit Hanoun there was a lock down throughout Israel even before the announcement was made by Hamas that they were going to seek retribution. Israel government knows exactly what the deal is, its just a shame the majority of people there agree with it and fully support it. For supposedly being the safest place for all Jews to go, it would seem to me that Israel is the least safest place. Thats not just because of the Palestinians either. Their own government contributes to a lot of their own instability.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN


If the Israeli government is aware of those supposed 1000 suicide bombers and still does what they do , then it would appear to me that its not a big concern to them, so if it doesn't concern them why should it concern me? Thats for the people of israel to worry about and to let their government know that provocation will only lead to their security being lessened. Following the murder of those people in Beit Hanoun there was a lock down throughout Israel even before the announcement was made by Hamas that they were going to seek retribution. Israel government knows exactly what the deal is, its just a shame the majority of people there agree with it and fully support it. For supposedly being the safest place for all Jews to go, it would seem to me that Israel is the least safest place. Thats not just because of the Palestinians either. Their own government contributes to a lot of their own instability.





It is not like they don't care about suicide bombers it's just that they cannot find many of them.

Unless they have developed a underground radar that can tell you where a terrorist is I don't think they can do much.



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 02:26 PM
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News BBC

The US has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution condemning an Israeli attack in Gaza that killed 18 civilians, including women and children.

Ten of 15 Security Council members backed the resolution. Four abstained - Denmark, Japan, Slovakia and the UK.

This was the second time this year the US used its veto on a draft resolution on Israeli military operations in Gaza.

The US has a history of vetoing resolutions condemning Israel which it feels are biased against the country, says the BBC's Laura Trevelyan at the UN in New York.

Well well well - aren't we surprised!

Yet another UN resolution vetoed by America, which tragets Israel and their Acts of Terror and Warcrimes - too bad, that everytime this happens, the Noble US ambassadors in UN always use their immense influence, to further defend Israeli Warcrimes and numerous violations of International Law.

Update to what happened in this Massacre;

According to Israeli PM Ehud Olmert - army artillery barrage that killed 18 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip was the result of a "technical failure". Which techinal failure would that be? American shells or Israeli technology? PATHETIC!

[edit on 11/11/06 by Souljah]



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 02:36 PM
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posted by lombozo

First off, I want to make it clear that this is not a bashing of the Israeli people. It is my view of Israel’s government and their policies.

I understand the Israeli people are under constant fear of terror attacks. We've all heard the reports of attacks in Israel coffee shops, stores, buses, etc. where innocent people were killed. The US had 1 terror attack on 9/11, five years ago and we're still crying about it. I mean that literally. I still have the dreadful feeling of loss and, to a lesser degree fear. I look forward to hearing replies. [Edited by Don W]



Let me jump in right here. 1) I thought we decided on August 6, 1945, at Hiroshima, if not earlier at Dresden, at Auschwitz, at Bataan, at Wounded Knee, that there were no “innocent” people in this world? I suggest we get over this mis-conceived label which does nothing to help us understand the things that are happening in today’s world. Our side innocent, your side barbaric. 2) Suicide bombers. America and Israel, like most other nation-states, have large well trained and expensively equipped uniformed armed forces and out of uniform clandestine operatives.

Occupied countries are not allowed to amass organized armies. As one of our leaders said, “you fight with the army you have and not with the army you wished you had.” I happen to believe the Middle Eastern culture values children more highly than Western culture. That’s subjective, but I said that to say this, Palestinians love their children as much as American parents love theirs. They do not give them up to suicide for no good and sufficient reason - to them. If we can only get our .s around this notion, it will help us to resolve the Arab-Israeli Problem.



I don't understand. I'm tired of Israel playing the part of the martyr. It seems every week .lines say Israel is “justifying” it's actions. Whether it's breaking a cease-fire, or blaming the killing of civilians on "technical errors" or re-drawing the path the "Wall." They provoke their enemies. Are they trying to start a war with Iran? What exactly is Israel doing? What was Israel thinking when they sent fighters "clearly in attack position" over French troops? Trusting that Uncle Sam will come running to the rescue?



IMO, two words describe current Israeli policy. Frustration and opportunism. Frustrated over the endless struggle between them and the Palestinians. Two people who want to occupy the same space. Both victims of the Great Power’s struggles over dominance of the region.

Opportunistic, because they can see the current US Administration is more favorable towards Israel then the next one is likely to be. The current Admin has so mucked up the Middle East that the next one will be forced to re-work relations in the region, giving due deference to the people who live there. There is a “final solution” looming on the not-so-distant horizon.



Seriously, the US dumps billions of dollars into Israel every single year. Why? IMO, a lot of terror and hate [of the US] is a direct result of supporting Israel.



I have urged since the Nine Eleven Event that the Israeli occupation of the Temple Mount - #3 Holy Site of Islam - is one of the 3 or 4 reasons why OBL attached the WTC. The WoT will go on until we resolve the problem the West created in 1948. We all know the history that underlies that. In 1948, we offered Palestine to the Jewish survivors of Nazism. We failed to appreciate the reality that a people already lived there. In the deep recesses of the Christian mind [soul?], we knew it was 1,000 years of incessant “Christ Killer” slander from the pulpits of Christendom that set up the Holocaust. We wanted to undo that overly long history of organized persecution.



If Israel stopped acting as such a rogue state perhaps there would be peace. Is that really such an outlandish statement? We know that Israel’s enemies are no saints who are completely innocent. They're not.



If you overlook the fact we - the West - invaded [by proxy] the territory we created in 1922 called the League of Nations Palestine Mandate, and displaced the lawful inhabitants, then you can readily lay a lot of blame for the current tit-for-tat on the surrounding Arab states. But we cannot undo those mistakes. That is why I urge any serious “settlement” effort must begin with the Six Day War of 1967. We cannot look further back than that, if we truly want to end this thing before OBL lays an a-bomb on our Capitol.



Look Iran is saying that Israel should be wiped off the map is a pretty strong statement.



The Iranians - Shia - are in competition with the Sunni - Saudi Arabia - for dominance in the Muslim world. Israel is the raison d’etre today. It is my personal opinion this talk is pure hyperbole. Unfortunately, as we saw in Germany in the 1930s, what was hyperbole then became policy in the 1940s. We can stop this Iran thing anytime we want to. Talk to Iran as an equal partner in the Middle East. That's it. No secret.

Just as North Korea is bewildered what it has to do, to talk to the United States, so also Iran (and Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah) are puzzled what they must do to talk to the United States. Still a super power albeit with a limp. We can’t expect any improvement until January 20, 2009. Let’s hope OBL doesn’t buy a spare nuke from Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan, before we get an administration that has a little elementary gumption. Talk to Kim Jong Il, face to face, as an equal partner. We have already screwed up that approach, but we can keep it from getting worse. If we will talk.



posted by INc2006

“ . . have you heard what Israel has done to the Palestinians and the Syrians and the Lebanese? For God’s sake stop giving me the BS I hear every freakin’ day on FOX! What if the Syrians want the Golan Heights back, it's their's by international borders . .



The Syrians mis-used this high ground. From 1949 until 1967, Syria either ordered or allowed the randomly aimed, intermittent firing of mortars and 5 inch rockets into the many Israeli kibbutzim located in sight of the Heights. It was more unnerving than injurious although several dozen Israeli’s were killed over the years. Modern technology could prevent that today, and Syria has consented to posting UN observers in the Golan should Israel return it.



“ . . what the hell is the world gonna have to carry this guilt another century before it goes away, and now while we're at it start another WW, and then have guilt about that one, and BLAH BLAH BLAH! Why do people always blame Israel? I’ll tell you why. Because they drove Palestinians out of lawfully owned houses, they practice collective punishment, they attack other countries in violation of international law, they build a wall that's like 3 times as high as the infamous Berlin wall, they kill civilians en masse, they hold Lebanese and Palestinians in filthy jails or concentration camps and many other violations of International Law . .



All of this is true. It has not brought “peace” to Israel. Ariel Sharon made the decision to “end” the dispute unalterably and to depend on the United States to make it work.



Uncle Sam Cairo Suez Nasser Britain France US USSR Syria, Jordan, Lebanon Egypt - Uncle Sam is always there for the rescue with political, financial, and even military backing! SO PLEASE STOP THE BS!



Mr IN6, you are cogent, coherent, and concise


[edit on 11/11/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 02:52 PM
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Israel cannot continue to do these kinds of operations with impunity from the rest of the world. It is simply not acceptable any longer.

There needs to be a new mentality from the Israeli leadership or else we will end up in WWIII.



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 06:07 AM
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I won't repost my entire post but if you have a chance to read this as it pertains to this thread topic. Have a quick read.


www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 07:54 AM
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posted by ThePieMaN

I won't reposit my entire post but if you have a chance to read this as it pertains to this thread topic. Have a quick read. [Edited by Don W]



A good read, but for me, nothing I did not already know or suspect. As I just wrote - for the umpteenth time - both Arabs and Jewish people are victims. Worse, the United States vetoed any action the Security Council could take in regard to this latest IDF assault on humanity. Under cover of US obstructionism in the UN, the IDF recently rampaged across Lebanon as a gang of drunken sailors on the loose.

What pees me is the dumb Americans who actually think they are telling the truth when they say the United Nations is ineffective. Herr Goebbels, you are alive in well in the Unites State of America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave!

I guess you’d have to say we are getting just exactly what we deserve. We have become two thirds the national symbol of the hear no evil, see no evil speak no evil monkey’s, but we do speak evil. Every day.


[edit on 11/12/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite


What pees me is the dumb Americans who actually think they are telling the truth when they say the United Nations is ineffective. Herr Goebbels, you are alive in well in the Unites State of America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave!


Hi Don
This is so very true. Its only as good as you make it. If we continue to veto important issues because they are our friends and then expect everyone to cow-tow to us when we have an important issue and get angry when they won't go our way...it will never work. I never understood this permant council, 5 nation garbage. It should just go straight to vote by each and every nation and thats that. The way it is now its crippled. I expect though if it were any other way, America would probably pull out since we wouldn't be able to exert our influence any longer. Maybe if it was different some countries would straighten up their act instead of flaunting their ability to sidestep trouble.


Pie



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Aigh, it was a good read Pie, I think it is sad that anyone would consider him a traitor simply for saying that Israel is responsible for it's actions..



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 12:20 PM
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posted by ThePieMaN

Hi Don . . If we continue to veto important issues because they are our friends and then expect everyone to cow-tow to us when we have an important issue and get angry when they won't go our way . . [Edited by Don W]



1) Friendship has nothing to do with top level politics. On the premise that nothing happens by accident, I presume the fractionalized Middle East is the real US foreign policy. That to avoid the 99% the Middle East who are oh so poor, overthrowing the 1% who work so well with us - say ExxonMobil and TexacoChevron - and the American people don’t give a dam as long as gasoline costs no more today than it did in 1930, adjusted for inflation and adding taxes. 2) Kowtow, from Imperial China, where the subject places his . under the superiors foot, to symbolize submission and the placing of his life in the hand (or foot) of the higher ranking one.



I never understood this Permeant Council, 5 nation garbage. It should just go straight to vote by each and every nation and that’s that. The way it is now its crippled. Pie



Because I’m older, not smarter, let me give you my take on the 5 Permanent Member of the Security Council which I think has 10 rotating members. Panama was just elected a couple days ago to a 2 year term.
The US successfully blocked Venezuela’s bid to get on the Council. We still have clout even if we are not liked. Remember that is 2 different groups of people, not a singularity. Rich and poor. The poor in Nicaragua and most everywhere hate us but the rich who “own” and run the countries love us. The trick is to keep the American people from noticing that, who are needed every 2 and every 4 years to endorse the American R&Fs.

The Soviets were keen to this political condition. They knew the West was the dominant power center of the world. The UK and US had sent 20,000 soldiers into Russian in 1920-1922 joined by Japan’s 15,000 troops in Siberia, to overthrow the Reds but that failed. There are a lot of idealists around the world who think they can do the “right” thing despite their own lack of power or money. After the failure to keep the peace by the League of Nations, it was determined to establish a more powerful league to be called the United Nations. For the first 2-3 years, we did not know the name, some called it the “United Nations Organization” or UNO. The shorter version won out.

The Soviets would only join the UN if they had not only a veto power in the Security Council, where the potential for real action is centered, and to give them Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus as members of the General Assembly as if they were independent countries which they were not until 1991. This was to partially off-set the acknowledge fact that all Latin American countries voted the way we told them to vote. That was the real purpose of the OAS - Organization of American States. During the Cold War, the US dominated the UN and it was the USSR that vetoed often. But we always back Israel from the git-go, and I say, it’s because Israel serves our foreign policy, which is unending religiously directed turmoil so the real theft of natural resources can go on unimpeded. We have killed almost every populist leader south of the Rio Grande since 1945. Only Fidel has outsmarted us. We let the Nazis dominate Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uraquay . We killed the leader of Chile, Bolivia and Guatemala, to name a few. It is very dangerous to be anti-American corporate exploitation in the Western Hemisphere. We have destroyed Columbia and Peru.



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 03:57 PM
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Another Day in the Empire

Please note: this video contains images of women and children killed by the Israeli state with U.S. weapons in Beit Hanoun, the Gaza Strip, in violation of the Arms Export Control Act (specifically, Ttitle 22, Chapter 39, Subchapter III § 2778 c). “My wife recorded this for my blog a couple of days ago. Since then, she won’t even look at the news,” writes Sabbah.

Beit Hanoun Massacre, Nov 8, 2006 on YouTube

I think the Video speaks more then all of my Posts.




posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 07:02 PM
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Souljah
The Arms Export Act is a joke. They have never followed the rules from the get go and we let them slide constantly. You can look up how many times they have broken the rules and still they keep getting supplied. They take Choppers and resell them to Drug Cartels in Columbia that they have purchased under that very same act as surplus. Its ridiculous! We have the power to recall anything they use that breaks those rules and we have never excersized it and more then likely never will. Even the Norwegians can recall the Heavy Water used in their Nuke plants for being used to make WMD's if they chose to.



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 07:08 PM
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Hammas also does not follow the ban on importing weapons.



posted on Nov, 12 2006 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Hammas also does not follow the ban on importing weapons.




A qassam does not derive from my tax dollars and poses no dangers to me or my family. An attack chopper that was paid for with tax dollars and then is being given away under the auspices of military aid and resold so that they may make a profit , to protect drug dealers selling drugs to American children and their parents does concern me as it should concern you. Its like I went to your house, stole your gun and then sold it to a thief who then used it to mug you. You lose and I make 100% profit on your back and the mugger comes out with a profit too.

If you read the export act, the majority of things under that act are for DEFENSIVE purposes only and even you have admitted yourself there have been times where you felt it was not defensive. This law has been broken more times then once. Not to mention they tried to sell things to China under this very same act.



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