GM or Not to GM, Which?

HorrahUSMC,

GMOs do not, as a rule produce higher yields and while it might be true that lots of people are currently eating GMOs, they wouldn't need to if farmers grew conventional crops.

GMOs displaced normal crops and now you claim we can't get rid of them? well how did we arrive at our present condition in the first place?



www.psrast.org...

Last week, Nature magazine reported the results of one of the biggest agricultural experiments ever conducted (2). A team of Chinese scientists had tested the key principle of modern rice-growing - planting a single, high-tech variety across hundreds of hectares - against a much older technique: planting several breeds in one field. They found, to the astonishment of the farmers who had been drilled for years in the benefits of "monoculture", that reverting to the old method resulted in spectacular increases in yield. Rice blast - a devastating fungus which normally requires repeated applications of poison to control - decreased by 94 per cent. The farmers planting a mixture of strains were able to stop applying their poisons altogether, while producing 18 per cent more rice per acre than they were growing before.

then re-read the thread ffs feofe you come off even more ignorant, i guess your name is a real advertisement.

edit: preserved post in full glory:

Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
I like this, people who think waiting 20 minutes for food to arrive is a bad sign of things to come are telling starving people "Hey, you're not me, die."

CHina, Africa, and parts of Mexico are reliant on GM crops. Without them they wouldn't be able to grow enough food. So, if you want to get rid of GM foods be prepared to kill off about 1 billion or so people. Oh sure they're just blacks or asians or mexicans, as long as you can order a vegetarian pizza at 3am who cares? Right? Let those African villages starve to death since organic crops are raped by the insect and other wildlife and even if they weren't produce less then most GM crops of the same type. WHat? Have them buy the same herbicides and pesticides we use in America? If they had that kind of money they wouldn't be worried about growing enough food they'd buy it.

Hell, China wouldn't have the population it does now if it wasn't for GM foods. The GM rice produces, sometimes 10x, more rice then normal non-GM foods. So if you want to commit genocide on the Chinese go ahead, remove GM products.

Know what, are you the KKK? Neo Nazos? GOP? Hitler's plan called for troops to round people up and kill them, your way not only costs less it kills more! Good job people, committing genocide on a billion+ people so you can buy raw foods at the ConAgro store for 30 bucks a pound.

have you read the link by now? how Chinese scientists found out that variety greatly increases yield and resitance? kind of ironic if you ask me, so, before you go on i'd like to see references to your claims.

[edit on 19-11-2006 by Long Lance]

Im doing a paper on the benefits of organic foods right now. I shouldnt really even be procrastinatng right now lol. But from what I have found so far, is that conventional farming using GMOs is simply not SUSTAINABLE. All the lakes, rivers and bodies of water are contaminated with organochlorine (pesticides). The marine life are affected (luckily we cannot be affected yet by eating a contaminated fish). the GROUND and soil are contaminated, and long term soil conservation is being reversed. and these effects and LONG TERM, they will not disappear in a few years or decades. Cancer rates in humans are skyrocketing. All the signs point to organic.

p.s. LONG LANCE, thanks for that source from Nature Mag on the Chinese Scientists

Originally posted by HoorahUSMC

Know what, are you the KKK? Neo Nazos? GOP? Hitler's plan called for troops to round people up and kill them, your way not only costs less it kills more! Good job people, committing genocide on a billion+ people so you can buy raw foods at the ConAgro store for 30 bucks a pound.

No, we happen to be people who are genuinely concerned about peoples LONG TERM health. Go ahead,eat your genetically modified food...Give me organic food any day over anything that a human hand is involved in creating.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth


No, we happen to be people who are genuinely concerned about peoples LONG TERM health. Go ahead,eat your genetically modified food...Give me organic food any day over anything that a human hand is involved in creating.

Strange how WE are labeled nuts and wackos and insulted as nazis while a few corporations are currently doing their best to create lasting famine by destroying large swaths of land poisoning the environment with bastardized GMOs and their associated toxins. when # hits the fan, it'll probably be our fault for not 'supporting them enough' oh, the logic

Originally posted by Long Lance

Strange how WE are labeled nuts and wackos and insulted as nazis while a few corporations are currently doing their best to create lasting famine by destroying large swaths of land poisoning the environment with bastardized GMOs and their associated toxins. when # hits the fan, it'll probably be our fault for not 'supporting them enough'

oh, the logic

Oh,yeah, we will definitely get labeled "rebels" and get the blame for that which is destructive. While the powers that be are praised as if they were gods. History is littered with such fabrications and distortions.

Good thread, great discussion. Thanks all.

A bit late, but I thought I'd fix the link from the opening post - GM Foods at a Glance

One question - anyone notice how the word "organic" is gaining/has gained a new connotation - and it's become a dirty word?

How about we fight back, and call it real food?

Maybe?

...It's another phony "debunking" marketing campaign. Check out how it works here.

Time for us to debunk the debunkers, imo.

Originally posted by dave_54
GM products have the promise of growing more food on less land, using less water, less fertilizer, and less pesticides. This means less natural land cover converted to crops and more land left in natural preserves. This means less non-point runoff from ag lands. This means small family farmers can make a living and not be forced by economics to sell to agri-business factory farms.

GM is an environmental win-win all the way around.

The only ones that oppose GM technology are the organic food industries that stand to lose millions of dollars in profits. They are more concerned about money than the environment.

First of all this industry position is self assertion, the unmasked position is proprietary seeds and monopoly profits. Can you imagine the arrogance of corporations patenting Basmati Rice rice, then turning around and trying to license its use to farmers in India? That actually happened from Texan company RiceTec. Do you like not being able to save your own seeds? This patent issue is the problem, and what companies use to exploit farmers around the world. It is a power play to control the food supply by legal trickery.

What you have with proprietary GM foods is lower yields and problems. The trouble with GM crops if not for lower prices for farmers is also higher prices for herbicides and other entanglements.

Will people get it once and for all that this is not about farmers but about profits for a terrible product?

Originally posted by SkipShipman

This patent issue is the problem, and what companies use to exploit farmers around the world.


It is a power play to control the food supply by legal trickery.

EXACTLY !!!


Talk about a guaranteed sale - and captive market.

Originally posted by soficrow

One question - anyone notice how the word "organic" is gaining/has gained a new connotation - and it's become a dirty word?

How about we fight back, and call it real food?

Maybe?

...It's another phony "debunking" marketing campaign. Check out how it works here.

I have no idea why organic has become a "dirty" word. I think most of it is due to the perspective that the GM corporations what the general,and ignorant, populace to believe.

As far as "debunkers" go, emphasis on quotations, what has a "debunker" ever actually debunked. It has been my experience that "debunkers" generally,not alwas, generally show little to no evidence against anything. What I get from most "debunkers," especially those that frequent these sites, are fallacies,a deny and deny again mentality, and arguments from emotion to defend their long held status quo perspectives.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

As far as "debunkers" go, emphasis on quotations, what has a "debunker" ever actually debunked. It has been my experience that "debunkers" generally,not alwas, generally show little to no evidence against anything. What I get from most "debunkers," especially those that frequent these sites, are fallacies,a deny and deny again mentality, and arguments from emotion to defend their long held status quo perspectives.

I agree.

But their tactics work. Not just in the general population, but here on ATS too.

You do know that the "debunkers" denial industry is funded by industry?

...We're fighting a trillion-dollar machine...



.

I certainly do,soficrow.. I have made allusions to it several times in my posts. I think it's important to realize that there is an increased effort by the powers that be, to have people,so called "debunkers," to come onto sites that are anti-establishment and present their drivel.

It's something that has particularly increased since the events of 9/11;I think we can deduct a number of things from that fact, but that is really out of the scope of this thread so I won't endeavor to address that issue here.

Here are some possible reasons why people have so many different opinions about organic food flavor:

1) Much organic food is often locally (or at least regionally) grown. Ergo, food grown on different soils in different climates will certainly not taste identical.

2) The greatest improvements in flavor I've noticed in 20 years of eating much organic produce is in root vegetables, such as potatoes, carrots, and the like. I've also noticed that some other organic produce has a greater sweetness overall, like onions, radishes and especially spinach.

3) With organic lettuce, on the other hand, I don't taste much of a difference.

4) Babies are born with all the taste buds they will ever have, and those taste buds have decreased sensitivity as we get older. Thus, older ATS members may find it more difficult to notice real taste differences in produce because of the normal aging process.

Getting back to the GM versus non-GM question, however, I'm surprised that a radical technology like GM would win as much global acceptance as it already has without a long enough track record to show its total cost for our biosphere.

In my local newspapers, I've noticed people begin to express greater interest in new food distribution strategies such as community-supported agriculture (CSA). Here in the U.S. is one popular CSA website which offers sign-ups:


www.localharvest.org...




[edit on 11/22/2006 by Uphill]

Originally posted by soficrow


Talk about a guaranteed sale - and captive market.

Talk about wastelands and food rationing because people didn't get it. does anybody even have a remote understanding of what happens if silos turn out to be empty some time in January?

The powers that be do not even admit their yields are declining, would they admit if one year's harvest was simply insufficient? of course not, they'd fly to one of their (well-stocked and heavily guarded) enclaves and watch...


PS: world&dog is too blind to see but i'm a fascist for my futile attempts at trying to warn people i just don't get it.

[edit on 22-11-2006 by Long Lance]

"4) Babies are born with all the taste buds they will ever have, and those taste buds have decreased sensitivity as we get older. Thus, older ATS members may find it more difficult to notice real taste differences in produce because of the normal aging process."


Some elderly do lose the sharpness of taste but not all. I can sure taste sweet corn and don't like it. I like "field corn" and "Wild Oats" has it canned. I have to say, most of the younger folk, the majority in fact, don't know what real food tastes like, they've never tasted it.

As for "organic" food being put down as "whacko", I'll eat it before I'll eat "Frankeinfood" which is literally what that GM "food" is.
At this moment, I'm eating a real Idaho russet potato, the real thing and I can sure taste it, its the potato of my childhood and its as good as ever. It tastes wonderful and gives that "high", the feeling of deep satisfaction after. The Frankeinfood doesn't have that little extra pleasure of good food.
I am almost activist on this as our food in recent years has been changed in taste and texture. And is it really food, does it sustain us? I was becoming ill from a condition and now that I'm getting real food, I'm recovering.
Corn with the texture of styrofoam, tomatoes with rinds, rice that has to be cooked to glue before its soft thru', and okra that tastes like cucumbers, and on and on. Worse, GN isn't stable. Biotechs call it "science" but its playing with fire. 3rd and 4th generation foods have morphed from what they were supposed to be.

I appreciate the links that have been included in the posts, GM is practically hidden from us, its not a good thing and they know it or it would be out in the open.

Get involved with Seed Savers, there are several out there. You get seed from them, plant and grow it, then send them more seed that you've harvested. Grow a tomato plant in a plastic bucket you can get free at grocers' bakery. (Cleaning them is fun). Gather good soil in the woods where deciduous trees grow, that is the richest soil. A little peat moss, compost and I use composted horse doo (or you can sterilize it in a slow oven, 8 hours at 200 degrees) Good rich soil makes strong plants that can fight off the pests and diseases. "Extreme gardening" has arrived.

Demand labeling in our stores, groceries do listen. When they see their customers not buying and complaining, it gets heard all the way back to the farm. In the meantime, try Wild Oates or Whole Foods. They're nation wide and have fresh, lush produce, a far cry from the little organic store with wilted, shopworn produce but the little shops were the pioneers, don't forsake them, buy their eggs at least.

Don't just talk about it, do something! Speak out. Go where you know the good stuff is and tell your grocer you're doing it. You can save a farm and the farmer, the stay and staff of our land.

Source
The first of the studies, conducted by Russian scientist Irina Ermakova, showed that an astounding 55% of the offspring of rats fed on GM soya died within three weeks of birth, compared with only 9% in the control group (1). The second, conducted by Manuela Malatesta and colleagues in the Universities of Pavia and Urbino in Italy, showed that mice fed on GM soya experienced a slowdown in cellular metabolism and modifications to liver and pancreas (2). And the third study, conducted by CSIRO in Australia, showed that the introduction of genes from a bean variety into a GM pea led to the creation of a novel protein which caused inflammation of the lung tissue of mice (3). So serious was the damage that the research was halted, and stocks of the GM pea have been destroyed.
The developers have now made a commitment that the "rogue" variety willnever be marketed.

These studies, all revealed in the scientific literature within thepast few weeks, have caused widespread alarm throughout the world, sincetwo of them suggest that GM soya (used in a large number of foods) mightbe very dangerous, and since they appear to confirm the findings of Dr Arpad Pusztai and Dr Stanley Ewen, whose paper on physiological changesin rats fed on GM potatoes caused a worldwide sensation in 1999 (4).
The authors were given the full "shoot the messenger" treatment; they were widely vilified by the scientific community, and following an intervention from the office of Prime Minister Tony Blair Dr Pusztai was sacked, his research team was dismantled, and his funding stopped. The Ewen/Pusztai research has never been repeated, let alone extended, for fear that their results will also be replicated. And there has never been a comprehensive human feeding trial involving GM food.

alternate link

Source
Unstable genes make accurate safety testing impossible. It also may explain some of the many problems reported about GM foods. For example, nearly 25 farmers in the US and Canada say that certain GM corn varieties caused their pigs to become sterile, have false pregnancies, or give birth to bags of water. A farmer in Germany claims that a certain variety of GM corn killed 12 of his cows and caused others to fall sick. And Filipinos living next to a GM cornfield developed skin, respiratory, and intestinal symptoms and fever, while the corn was pollinating. The mysterious symptoms returned the following year, also during pollination, and blood tests on 39 of the Filipinos showed an immune response to the Bt toxin—created by the GM corn.

just curious: what will it take to make pro-GMers either question my links or start having doubts?

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Long Lance]

The two I saw posted here in favor of GM had only anecdotal opinions and limited experience such as youth.
The world is standing up and resisting this takeover of control hiding behind the false pomises of pest control and greater yield which has been seen to be just not so.
I'm resisting after keeping my mouth shut too long. I don't like GM food, I don't thrive on it, it tastes terrible and people in this world are sicker than ever. Even our food animals are turned into cannibals. How long before we are eating food that is genetically spliced with human genetic material? Is that old movie, "Soylent Green" in our future for real?.
I'm moving out of this city to an orchard part of the state and plan to build a greenhouse to escape ths destruction and takeover, keep my own bees if that's what it takes or "cage" blossom buds and hand polinate.
People simply are too involved with "other things" right now, will we have riots when they finally learn the truth? I wouldn't be surprised. By then I hope I'm so tucked away no one can find me.

Originally posted by Alikospah

People simply are too involved with "other things" right now, will we have riots when they finally learn the truth? I wouldn't be surprised. By then I hope I'm so tucked away no one can find me.

Unfortunately for most, by the time that happens,it will be too late.The damage will have already been done.

What I see with most people is an unwillingness to even hear the truth. If you bring up a topic that really has bite to it, people are quick to change the subject to more mundane matters such as, celebrities, weather, or just general nonsense. Most people gladly will leave their blindfolds on.


It's rather sad. I have a sister that couldn't care any less about what is really taking place in the world around her, but she'll spend hours on end finding out about what some "celebrity" is doing!! I couldn't care less about celebrities!

When you look at the way the world is going, one doesn't get the impression of a population that is ready to upheave a system that is aimed on destruction. Instead, one gets the impression of a populace that is ready to "go with the flow." That to me is sad.

Many people are probably not even aware of what GM foods are. They probably think GM stands for General Mills or something!! I laugh not because I find it humorous, but because people's ignorance leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[edit on 29-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 29-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

2005, a Scary Year for Genetically Engineered Crops

By Jeffrey M. Smith
Author of the international bestseller Seeds of Deception

Genetically modified(GM)crops were introduced 10 years ago, but 2005 saw plenty of evidence that the technology was introduced long before the science was ready. Here are some of last year’s highlights, so to speak.

At a conference in October, a leading scientist from the Russian Academy of Sciences reported that more than half (55.6%) of the offspring of rats fed GM soy died within three weeks. By contrast, only 9% of rats died whose mothers were fed non-GM soy. The study is preliminary, but the American Academy of Environmental Medicine asked the NIH to immediately repeat it. [1]

In June, a German court ordered Monsanto to make a study public, in which rats fed GM corn developed kidney inflammation, altered blood cell counts and organ lesions. These and other changes suggested possible allergies, infections, toxins, anemia or blood pressure problems. The rats were fed corn genetically engineered to produce a pesticide called Bt-toxin. A French expert who reviews GM safety assessments for the government says that these and other studies indicate that Bt crops create reactions similar to chemical pesticides. Monsanto, however, was able to convince regulators to overlook the findings using arguments that were widely criticized as unscientific.[2]

In November, a 10-year, $2 million GM pea project in Australia was abandoned when the peas were found to create immune responses in mice. The results, which indicate that the peas might create serious allergic reactions in people, were discovered only after scientists employed advanced tests that have never been used for evaluating GM food. If those peas had been studied in the normal way, they could have been approved. The findings suggest that undetected problems may be common in GM crops on the market.[3]

Medical reports from India say that farm workers handling Monsanto’s GM cotton developed moderate to serious allergic reactions, forcing some to the hospital. There were also reports that numerous animals died after eating the Bt cottonseed.[4]

The Indian government confirmed that Bt cotton’s disastrous yields cost millions. One state even kicked out Monsanto, after they refused to compensate farmers’ losses. Tragically, hundreds of debt-ridden cotton farmers committed suicide.[5]

Monsanto was fined by the US Justice Department for bribing up to 140 Indonesian officials over several years, trying to get Bt cotton approved.[6] But widespread crop failure had left farmers in ruins there too, so even the bribes didn’t work. [7]

A three-year UK study showed that GM crops damage biodiversity and threaten birds and bees.[8] Another study surprised scientists when GM crops cross pollinated with a distant relative.[9] And some Indian farmers found that after planting GM cotton, their fields became sterile and could not support subsequent crops.[10]

According to USDA statistics, much more Roundup herbicide is used due to Monsanto’s Roundup Ready GM plants. Roundup was found to be far more toxic to humans and animals than previously thought. [11] Furthermore, its over use has resulted in the proliferation of herbicide-tolerant weeds in the US.[12]

Contamination was also a big issue.

www.responsibletechnology.org...

Any detractors? debunkers maybe? no?



In that case i'd say our view on the subject is both undisputed and correct, no?

cross reference:

www.abovetopsecret.com...