Why Is The Vatican Asking for a Reprieve Of Saddam Hussein?

By the way,Hussein is a big fan of Stalins. Oh,yeah!!

Hussein and Stalin

Originally posted by AGENT_T
Maybe Pope Benadryl xvi is just trying to make up for putting his foot in it with his last few ''inflammatory'' statements then

In that respect,I will come to the defense of the Pope. He didn't say anything. He quoted out of a book something someone else had said.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
You know,I seem to hear this "give him life" a lot when it comes to criminals. Who do you suppose is going to support,not only Saddam, but thousands of other convicted murderers,here in this country and abroad, for the next 40-50 years? The innocent citizens do!!

I am not a big fan of the death penalty, not because I think it is wrong, but because I don't think it deters anything. A person that will take another's life is not likely to think much of his/her own. However,I also don't think it is feasible to "give them life" and the citizens continue to support them.

Well if we didnt spend so much time going after non violent criminals, we wouldn't have the overcrowded jails that we have now. It would make supporting hardened murderers and such a lot more worth it. What taxpayer wouldnt gladly support his taxes going to keep rapists and murderers locked up for life?

Pedro,as has been pointed out, that is very true. I think the only way to stop the conuundrum that we are in is to ....I hate to say it but, either we have to lessen the penalty for drug charges or legalize it all together. Of course, all of this has little to do with Saddam,but the citizens of Iraq are likely to find themselves in a similar scenario if not careful.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by zephyrs
I don't know if it's been mentioned but maybe it's because if Saddam is killed he'll be viewed as a martyr. That seems to be a very powerful and respected thing in the world of Islam Being left alive as a prisoner, in solitary confinement for the rest of his life is definately not as powerful as martyrdom.

saddam is an enemy to extremist muslims!

he was a secularist

bin laden spoke out against saddam on many occassions

saddam didn't support ANY radical muslims while he was in power

and he'd only support them now if he knew the could get him out

The Vatican cannot tell you why, because it would mean they admit they hold mpre facts about the true words of 'God'.

I implore that they do not physically carry out any execution of those who have been accused of crimes against Humanity.

Feel free to incarcerate them until the end of their natural life. Feed and water them and tend them with fairness and compassion but deny anything else, but give them free access to their God and let them, if they ever can, find peace with him.

Only God can be the judge and reabsorber of any being. To take a humans life by any means is murder in the eyes God in the Thou Shall not Kill (ANY) living thing that was not provided for food.

For any Christian or other faith basing principles of doctrine, any "eye for an eye" is not your right it is Gods, for if you wish to look at it physically rather that from a view of symbology in which it is written (most 'spiritual energies' provide visual representation to get there message across.. look at how Mediums have to work today). A man who takes an eye out of another man shall have his removed when he reaches God, symbollically, it is a Biblical reference to Karma or Cause and Effect. A human can by his acts and circumstance correct his own Karma except that of murder, the only ones who will walk this earth that may take the life 'rightly so' of a man like Sadam are those whos life he took when they re-incarnate and that WILL NOT happen in his lifetime. HE will have to come back.

For Sadam Hussain, as any other of his like mind, the death sentence is wrong, it is man judging man to be murdered by a man on that judgement... you must let him die a natural death and he will pass for his judgement before God and his round of re-incarnation will be ended. If you murder him you give him the God Given right by Karma to return to correct this wrong doing against him by his murder and so the cycle continues... it is that simple !!! and being full of his past hate and bitterness and with every ounce of it intact in his Spirit on his return to be played out once again on the arena of earth in another guise.

Thanks James

Originally posted by james_argyle
The Vatican cannot tell you why, because it would mean they admit they hold mpre facts about the true words of 'God'.

I implore that they do not physically carry out any execution of those who have been accused of crimes against Humanity.

Feel free to incarcerate them until the end of their natural life. Feed and water them and tend them with fairness and compassion but deny anything else, but give them free access to their God and let them, if they ever can, find peace with him.

Only God can be the judge and reabsorber of any being. To take a humans life by any means is murder in the eyes God in the Thou Shall not Kill (ANY) living thing that was not provided for food.

For any Christian or other faith basing principles of doctrine, any "eye for an eye" is not your right it is Gods, for if you wish to look at it physically rather that from a view of symbology in which it is written (most 'spiritual energies' provide visual representation to get there message across.. look at how Mediums have to work today). A man who takes an eye out of another man shall have his removed when he reaches God, symbollically, it is a Biblical reference to Karma or Cause and Effect. A human can by his acts and circumstance correct his own Karma except that of murder, the only ones who will walk this earth that may take the life 'rightly so' of a man like Sadam are those whos life he took when they re-incarnate and that WILL NOT happen in his lifetime. HE will have to come back.

For Sadam Hussain, as any other of his like mind, the death sentence is wrong, it is man judging man to be murdered by a man on that judgement... you must let him die a natural death and he will pass for his judgement before God and his round of re-incarnation will be ended. If you murder him you give him the God Given right by Karma to return to correct this wrong doing against him by his murder and so the cycle continues... it is that simple !!! and being full of his past hate and bitterness and with every ounce of it intact in his Spirit on his return to be played out once again on the arena of earth in another guise.

Thanks James

Firstly,you seem to imply that God is unwilling to forgive for murder. Have you ever heard of Moses or Paul? Both were murderers and supposedly respected men of God. You don't think God forgave them for their sin of murder? The only unforgiveable sin,at least as far as I can tell, is suicide.

Secondly, does the bible not say to "obey the laws of the land"?

you must let him die a natural death and he will pass for his judgement before God and his round of re-incarnation will be ended. If you murder him you give him the God Given right by Karma to return to correct this wrong doing against him by his murder and so the cycle continues... it is that simple !!!

I will address this because I do believe in reincarnation. How do you know he will not reincarnate just because he dies of natural causes? Are you assuming that if his life is cut short, God will not know what he would have done had it been otherwise? It seems to me that you are implying that if he continues to live and change then he won't have to recompensate for what he has done. That is not my understanding of Karma at all. Even if someone does change their ways, they still have to pay for the damage they have caused in the next life cycle.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

I think Saddam should be forgiven by all. But he must still suffer the consequences of his actions, even if it is death, than so be it.

Forgiveness does not necessarily mean that one will not be punished for what he has committed.

The Vatican is clearly following something higher than the desire for revenge and it’s called Morality. Killing Saddam won’t achieve anything because we his supporters already have his ideology, his history and the knowledge of Western values he sought to impose in the Middle East.
However it might deny everybody of a very intelligent-wise man; who would probably be able to come with something constructive when say our democracy fails, or any number of possible future events hit us.

He is also the only person who has been able to leed Iraq since its modern formation in 1933. He inherited a state that had suffered no less than 22 military coups prior to his rule. He was able to raise average Iraqi living standards to the point where 92% were literate, and 93% had access to free healthcare often of a first world living standard. He unilaterally disarmed himself of WMD’s so that the sanctions which brought poverty to his people should have been lifted long ago.
There are many good things about Saddam which are avoided or just perhaps overlooked in the mainstream press.

In this war the Western people have been lied to by their Western governments so much. Killing Saddam is just the ultimate form of information denial; as I’ve already said it’s a great shame George Bush can’t execute the need for Saddam.
As for the Iraqi court it was hastily set up by the American Bar Association under an occupation whose key original justifications are lies. We have not brought a better standard of living to Iraq; and nor according to the evidence-indications are we on path too. The Iraqi court has not being able to deliver a fair trial even if Saddam was guilty of everything we charged him of, and it will therefore go down in history as a farce. If anything we need to keep him alive so that a legitimate court like an international court could try him again; and even then they wouldn’t give him a death sentence; a problem to all those who’ve had their arrogance put into practice (with it’s effects plain for all to see) in the present Iraq.

If my family had been killed by Saddam I probably wouldn’t be forgiving but that’s only because I would be a “stone to death inspired” backward Muslim Fundamentalist; and or friend of Iran. Such were 99% of Saddam’s “Iraqi” enemies (particularly those who lost in a time of war; notably the anfal campaign during the Iran-Iraq one) (The “Iraqi” Kurds were bribed and working for “backward” Iran).

Firstly, thank you for your reply.

And I address each point happily;

God does forgive for murder, you are right it is the truth and Karmically that is repaid by learning and progression pre and post incarnation

I am sorry to disagree, doctrine is flawed on suicide, wholly, it carries the same weight as murder.

The obeying laws of the land are additions/misinterpretaions by man weilding their power, not instructions from God

God only asks that we be caretakers of the land, the only law is to Love and nuture it (done well there haven't we!)

He may re-incarnate, you are correct however, it would be millenia from now if he did and hopefully the world will be changed for the better by then. BUT I will expound my statement once more, God DOES have the right to cast his Spirit back to its' base form.

Karma is nature in motion from it's finite start to it's finite end, for matter cannot be created or destroyed.. however matter may be absorbed into different elements.. if you would like to look at Karma I suggest you study the Buddhist philosophy of Karma that shows you may be stripped down to the simplest of life form to begin the journey of evolution again.

I am neither Buddhist nor Christian it sit on neither fence I work only with the truth and with no bias to any doctrine.

My very best wishes
James
P.S. The text you pasted in.....By mudering Saddam, you take Gods choice by his own Law out of his hands and place that choice back in ours, because we give Saddam the cause for redress for the sin committed against him.
James

[edit on 7-11-2006 by james_argyle]

Originally posted by james_argyle
I am neither Buddhist nor Christian it sit on neither fence I work only with the truth and with no bias to any doctrine.

My very best wishes
James

I do applaud you. I am Christian in the sense that I believe in Jesus Christ. However, I see a wide chasm,not necessarily morally, but doctrinally between most Christians and myself. I cannot say that I am not somewhat biased because I am somewhat,but I,unlike many others, think people have a right to believe as they wish.

I added a PS, I duly made an ommision.. but it isn't overly important.

Dear Speaker,

I cant even attach a label to my belief system, I cant even use the word Religion because that word has been bastardised by it's missuse over centuries.

I do not lampoon or derise any thought or comment you have made, I only give you the truth.

I would say you are wise to realise that the altar at which to serve and invocate your prayers is not in any building, nor ministered by and man puporting to represent God through mistranslated, incomplete texts from 2000 years ago. Nor by over purified teachings of the Buddah that forget elemnts of fellow ship and living. There is a middle ground and there are tangents from the middle ground and within all the pieces are the truth. But the truth has changed over tens of thousands of years.

Jesus was/is a Christed being, who suffered terribly as a result (not for us either, that is a misnoma!) What he taught was bastardised beyond belief over 200 years, and anything new is dismissed if it doesnt sit in the niche of the Vatican, in it's comfort, riches and power in a world of discomform, poverty and domination.. is the representative of God?

Well, Speaker, I wish you happy and healthy and God Bless You !

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Vatican, Catholic officials say "don't hang Saddam"

How would they know it's really Saddam they are hanging? If the one on trial is the real one. He musta had some serious rearranging of his lower teeth while hiding in the hole.

The people of the world are so numb to everything they can't and don't care to see. Oh Well. Believing that the 'officials' used dental records to be sure they had the real one is .... well. The only problem is, we have the father of lies as government. It's his native language.

Originally posted by WiseSheep


How would they know it's really Saddam they are hanging? If the one on trial is the real one. He musta had some serious rearranging of his lower teeth while hiding in the hole.

He was in that hole for months. It's a wonder he has any teeth at all. Yeah,it's him. No one else with a mug like that.

He was able to raise average Iraqi living standards to the point where 92%were literate, and 93% had access to free healthcare often of a first world living standard. He unilaterally disarmed himself of WMD’s so that the sanctions which brought poverty to his people should have been lifted long ago.

Sources?

We have not brought a better standard of living to Iraq; and nor according to the evidence-indications are we on path too.

Sources?

As for the Iraqi court it was hastily set up by the American Bar Association under an occupation whose key original justifications are lies.

Sources?

For those who are interested,here are the specifics of what Saddam is being tried for. I have to admit that the source of this information,at least for me, raises some flags.

What are the specific charges against Saddam Hussein?

The first case to be brought against Saddam Hussein at the Iraqi Special Tribunal involves his role in the 1982 execution of 148 Iraqi civilians in Dujail, a predominantly Shiite town north of Baghdad. Saddam is charged with ordering the executions following a failed assassination attempt. Several of his top deputies have also been charged in the massacre. Among other charges, Saddam stands accused of ordering the slaughter of some 5,000 Kurds with chemical gas in Halabja in 1988, killing or deporting more than 10,000 members of the Kurdish Barzani tribe in the 1980s, and invading Kuwait in 1990. He could face the death penalty if convicted.

Specifics of Trial

As I said, the source of the informations raises some flags for me,but I don't think they'd lie about what he is being tried for,especially since his actions have been documented previously.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Yeah,it's him.

Oh really?



[edit]scaled down image, too wide for forum[/edit]

[edit on 7-11-2006 by WiseSheep]

Originally posted by queenannie38
Will/Has God forgiven Saddam?

Has Saddam accepted Christ and relied on His sacrifice to be his covering in forgiveness?

If not - then will He forgive anyone else?

If we but accept Christ, yes. Just as in the desert with Moses when Israel started to turn away from God and the fiery/poisonous serpents came, if the people but looked to the statue of the snake, they were healed. Yet, the people of Israel could refuse to look to the statue...Did they get healed, too? Nope. So too it is with Christ (John 3:14,15)

If so - then who are we to condemn another human being? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Romans 13:3-5 speaks about this:

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

I bolded verse 4 since that's the most explicit, but wanted to put the verse in context it would be seen that it is government powers that are being spoken of, be they a man, as in the case of Rome, or a group, as in the case of the court in Iraq.

Matthew 18:21-35

Yes, we as Christians are called to forgive all who do works against us, but governments are to uphold the law as well (Matthew 22:21: Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's (In this case, pay taxes, but the larger meaning can be understood calling for people to obey the law except when man's law violates God's law) and, of course, Romans 13:1-7

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

)

Paul murdered many - his plea is for us to have mercy upon one another - just as God had mercy upon us.

At the same time he talks of obeying government, and, as he is suspected to be the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews, talks about government having command over the sword. He calls for us, as individuals, to have mercy, just as God has mercy on each of us. God calls for government to be held to a different standard, as can be derived from the books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Leviticus when God set up Israel's government. (Side note: This is what was going horribly wrong with the Jews when Jesus saved the woman accused of adultery. Individuals had taken God's law that was given to the government of Israel and taken it upon themselves to perform.)

Personally, I prayed that Saddam would find mercy, somehow - I applaud the Vatican for this example after Christ!

That's noble. I hadn't really thought about it too much, so hadn't felt one way or the other. The Vatican coming out and asking for a reprieve on his execution is in standing with where the Catholic Church stands (and rightly so, in my opinion) on execution. After all, now that we have been freed of the law and the consequences therein if we but look to Christ as our savior, we should, as Christians, strive to give people every moment we can so they may find their salvation in Christ.

After all, if you execute someone, there will not be another chance for them to come to know Christ, and John 14:6 is clear what that means, as is much of scripture. How could we, as individuals, not forgive Saddam his actions after all God has forgiven us?

the man in the Vatican is Cardinal Renato Raffaele Martino
& being a spokesperson from his office; Vatican Council for Justice and Peace...
The Cardinal didn't say anything new or profound in speaking about Saddam.

Vatican Opposed to Death Penalty ~ from 13 Dec., 2003

..." imposing the death penalty, the Cardinal (Renato Martino) said,

'You know well that the Pope has spoken repeatedly against capital punishment.
I have spoken against capital punishment. The European Union has abandoned
capital punishment, the International Tribunals for Rwanda and Yugoslavia do not
even consider imposing the death penalty' [...]

...'even if he is a wicked man, his dignity should be respected.
But he needs to confess his crimes, the millions of people he killed or had killed.
Even Christian forgiveness supposes confession and expiation', he said "...

Father Michele Simone (Jusuit Priest), and Deputy Director of 'Civilta Cattolica'
also is on board with the stand against the death penalty.
but Cardinal Renato Martino, who holds a Vatican Position; pontifical_councils....has not recently made an official press-release concerning Saddam Hussein & the death sentence...
i think the reported Quotes in the Thread-Starter was just the two men in the Vatican voicing their personal opinion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

The Vatican is actually remaing distant about Saddam, but is reminding us that he has a personal price to pay... he must confess & receive expiation before he dies.

here's why i'd want to delay or deny any death sentence;
.....Partners in Crimes Against Humanity

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
All part of the coming one world religion.

Islam is not base on an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth. It is based on convert to Islam or they will take your eyes and teeth.

The Vatican has asked that he be forgiven (in the sense not given the death penalty) because the Holy See does not recognize capital punishment and is standing behind their virtues. They forgive (as in not killing the man) because they feel it is barbaric and backwards and that God will hand out the due punishment in due time.

Also, your little insight to Islam there would be rather humorous if not deeply ignorant.

What Saddam did is what any dictator, king, tyrant, general and almost all historical figures would have done.. as a human to a human we can cast him down and declare him evil, as a nation we are imposing our morals on other cultures.. which in this case the suppressed people cannot govern themselves with out a strong fist to knock them down when they get hostile. Notice it is now the Shia who are running most of the terrorism? .. These are the people we liberated.. the Sunnis where doing just fine.