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UK Physicians Propose Euthanasia of Newborns

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posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 08:00 PM
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I think a person who could conclude that a human being is unworthy of living the life they were given because they may take more money to assist them in overcoming genetic obstacles is a sign of a far greater negative impact to society and a far more societally unacceptable deficiency than anything the referenced egomaniacal degenerate could be trying to eliminate in their own sick mind. That includes UK physicians and whomever else that applies.

But that's just my opinion.




posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 08:00 PM
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The Weakest Link

I think I can understand the concerns of some members about the personal impacts policies like these may have.

After all, it's hard not to take a message like "you are the weakest link, goodbye!" personally if you have a condition that might inspire others to call for your own death.

Obviously, that's pretty serious stuff.

Nonetheless, if we inject ourselves into the discussion this way, nothing meaningful is accomplished. What we end up with is a lot of personal animosity, name-calling, flaming and -- what I'm concerned about -- a message that differing opinions aren't welcome on ATS.

A Strong Stance

As a moderator, my job is to enforce the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use as fairly and reasonably as possible, and indeed I try.

But my responsibilities explicitly do not include deciding what opinions members may have on the issues.

That's up to members to decide, and as long as they express those opinions in accordance with the T&C, I have no business interfering.

To be sure, there have been many T&C violations in this thread, and we're trying not to be heavy-handed about them.

But even in tough cases like these, we must all do our best to play by the rules.

I sincerely believe it is possible to discuss this topic in a candid, civil manner.

Please try, and I'll try to help.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 08:12 PM
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If you think Hitler was right, and you have NO COMPASSION for those who drew a set of genes that caused them to be UNIQUE then YOU don't belong on ATS.

Any questions? save them... We don't want to hear the stormfronter bullshyte here.


Springer...



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 08:55 PM
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Has anyone had the chance to review my previous post on page 6 and check out the links I provided? I would like to get some feedback on those, specifically "utilitarian" viewpoint promoted by Peter Singer, regarding the "personhood" of newborns. Do you see this as a trend in medical and/or societal ethics? If so what does that say about us as a society?

Props to Majic and Springer for their input as well.



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 09:29 PM
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I read your article, gritting my teeth.

Sounds like a very scientific and complex way to say "let's kill disabled children".

No, I'm not being pedantic or inentionally obtuse.

People with a view like that are no different than Hitler...wanting the "superior race" and killing all that don't fit the criteria. Advocating this idiology is just as bad as anything the nazis did during WWII. The only difference is that the "master race" is no longer decided by bloodline, but instead by genetics.

I say this isn't only ignorance, but murderous ignorance. Who is Expert A to say that Infant B is a "non-person"? It's obvious that even unborn infants feel pain during abortions....you ever seen Silent Scream? Yeah, tell me the unborn childs' little arms pushing against the hook cutting into him/her don't feel pain, and I'll tell you where to shove it.

Oh, but that's not the same, you say, because they don't have a "mind", per se? Yeah, do me a favor and find scientific evidence that any adult has a mind, some kind of evidence beyond sensory perception and instinct, then and only then can you use that craptastic justification, because adults, small children, and developed fetuses exhibit the same response mechanisms, only at a differing level of reaction.

In yet another example, how about Beethoven, or yes, Hawkings? It's pretty likely that I could kick Hawkings' ass in a fistfight, and I could probably hold an easier conversation that Beethoven, but those are two well-known examples of "defective" people who have made enormous contributions to society as a whole, which have carried on over many years, things that I could never have done. But bio-ethicists would prefer to eliminate compassion in all its forms, especially including that which compels us to do all we can to preserve life. Ironically, such people are often champions for environmental concerns.

So, in answer to your question, I think it's a load of crap, cleverly shaped into a shiny new form of Nazism, with a new name and supported by a load of scientific non-words.

Wanna kill yourself? I'd rather you didn't, but it's your life. Wanna be a trans-humanist, put magnets and cybernetics in your body? Good for you, if you're a beautiful woman I hope you get x-men powers and fall in love with me.

Wanna tell me that children don't have a mind and we should kill the weak ones? Hope you don't meet me on the street someday, we'll put your superior existence to the test.

[edit on 9-11-2006 by Astygia]



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by Astygia
I read your article, gritting my teeth.

Sounds like a very scientific and complex way to say "let's kill disabled children".

No, I'm not being pedantic or inentionally obtuse.

People with a view like that are no different than Hitler...wanting the "superior race" and killing all that don't fit the criteria. Advocating this idiology is just as bad as anything the nazis did during WWII. The only difference is that the "master race" is no longer decided by bloodline, but instead by genetics.

I say this isn't only ignorance, but murderous ignorance. Who is Expert A to say that Infant B is a "non-person"? It's obvious that even unborn infants feel pain during abortions....you ever seen Silent Scream? Yeah, tell me the unborn childs' little arms pushing against the hook cutting into him/her don't feel pain, and I'll tell you where to shove it.

Oh, but that's not the same, you say, because they don't have a "mind", per se? Yeah, do me a favor and find scientific evidence that any adult has a mind, some kind of evidence beyond sensory perception and instinct, then and only then can you use that craptastic justification, because adults, small children, and developed fetuses exhibit the same response mechanisms, only at a differing level of reaction.


I agree with you 100%, Astygia. I'm on your side, o.k. I was not advocating the position taken by Singer, et al, quite the contrary. I was only trying to get some feedback from everyone else to see if they are as worried as I am that the "ethics" of infanticide being advocated by these people might represent a growing trend in medicine and society at large. Peace!



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 10:28 PM
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I know. That was a rant directed at those who buy into this load of shyte. When I said you, I didn't mean "You".



posted on Nov, 9 2006 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Stormrider

...The proposal by the Royal College included the sugesstion that withholding of treatment, and withdrawal of life support be considered along with other options in the ending of newborn lives complicated by severe disabilities.




So at the discretion of doctors, parents - and presumably, insurance companies - the proposed law would allow:

1. Withholding of essential treatment;

2. Withdrawal of life support; and

3. Active killing, as with a lethal injection.


This proposal is packaged as a human compassion issue - but really, it's about economics, and avoiding insurance long term payouts.

Anyone else see the writing on the wall?

They make us sick with pollution, suck our cash for treatments, then kill us when we're broke.



Protecting Industry and "The Economy" - At What Cost to Children, and Humanity's Future?


.



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 05:28 AM
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Thank Goodness the vicious personal attacks have stopped!

Now, I think the really disurbing thing about the idea of killing people with Disabilities, is that it shows a Devaluing of human life. I also wish to thank those on this list who stood up and said: "Enough of the Ignorance and Hate"

Sadly, many people judge others they don't know. The truth is even doctors don't know for sure what someone may be capable of. To cut a life short, because it doesn't look promising early on, could be a tragic mistake. Here are a list of some of the tallents that enrich (or have enriched) our world (note: All of the following people have disabilities of some kind):

Danny Keplinger- Artist from MD, USA
Hans Christian Andersen- Author
Alexander Graham Bell - Inventer of the Phone
Dale S. Brown- Author
George Burns- Actor, comedian
Cher- Entertainer, actress
Agatha Christie- English mystery writer
Winston Churchill- Former Prime Minister of Britain
Tom Cruise- Actor
Fred Curry- Navy pilot, CEO of Greyhound Lines
Leonardo Da Vinci- Renaissance artist, sculptor, painter
Walt Disney- Cartoonist, visionary founder of Disneyland/Disneyworld
Thomas Edison- Inventor, scientist
Albert Einstein- Scientist, philosopher
Danny Glover- Actor
George Patton- Army General
Nolan Ryan- Baseball Player
Woodrow Wilson- US President
Henry Winkler- Actor, director, humanitarian, "The Fonz"
Bob Dole- Former U.S. Senator
Michael J. Fox- Actor
Stephen Hawking- Astrophysicist
Pope John Paul II
Franklin Delano Roosevelt- US President
Chris Burke- Actor

See, everyone on this list has (or had) a disability! Everyone of then has enrich or world in some way.

SOURCE: Famous People with Disabilities ericec.org...

Tim



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 11:04 AM
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just fyi, there is a thread on the Medical Issues Board for anyone who'd like to slape a few eugenicists



www.abovetopsecret.com...


With that out of the way, i think this thread shows very nicely what kind of problem we are dealing with: hardcore Nazi-Style Eugenics, people who want to kill others, _anyone_ to be exact (even if they never ever admit it) for their 'worthless genes' any excuse will do. for the (broken) record: if you honestly think that 98% of our DNA is junk or that genes define everything (genetic determinism) i don't need to go on, it's a lost cause.

So, one last line on topic, governments in the EU have great control over people via monopolised insurance and similar mechanisms, they _will_ put the burden on top of parents' shoulders, for savings alone, even though i suspect eugenicists at work, in which case people will without a doubt choose to kill their children.

the big difference here is that it's done with a tangible reason, not for aryan purity
whatever that actually means. a slippery slope nonetheless and a very dangerous one at that.



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by DYepes
Well shauny, just how much are you actually doing for the human race? At least Ghost is doing a good deed for society. He's helping build teamwork, discipline, and tolerance for some youth who may just as well be hanging out in the streets wasting their lives with drugs and crime. for that I congradulate him, and feel that he is helping make the human race stronger by building strong characteristics in developing youths.


As Ghost pointed out, we have actors with disabilities, people in high up places with disabilities.. However, this is not what I'm contesting. Sure a person with a disability can become an actor or go to university, but that in no way changes who they are and what they are inside.

I'm not saying lets have a mass genecide of disabled people who are alive now. Just for the babies that are born with anomolies. Hence, wiping out as much weakness as possible.

You know just because a person doesn't go to scouts, doesn't mean he hangs out on the streets doing drugs and other criminal activities.


Originally posted by DYepes
In fact many people with dissabilities tend to end up dedicating themselves to helping others. What have you done shauny to help make the human race stronger?


Maybe I should become a scout leader so I can help the human race..


Originally posted by 12m8keall2c
I guess if the "shoes" had been on your feet then you'd have preferred to be put down. (?) :shk:


I couldn't stand to be disabled. I'd most likely save all the effort of getting a euthanasia law passed and just od. We put animals down, why should humans be any different?


Originally posted by InDirectViolation
As another representative of the handicapped I only want to euthanize one baby. Shaunybaby. Nobody would care. You see your handicapped. You have an abnormal brain. Why not save the gene pool and take yourself out of the equation. At least get neutered.


I have an abnormal brain? So you don't like me because I'm 'different'? Notice the double standards? And it's quite the assumption that 'nobody would care'.. what you actually mean to say is that you wouldn't care, although that doesn't sound as dramatic as 'nobody would care'.


Originally posted by InDirectViolation
I may not be your physical equal but I'm an avid hunter. I can take your eye out at 300 yards without a problem. If a Kodiak Brown could not get the better of me you don't have a chance. I have a 45 (legally as I'm not insane like you are) in a holster mounted under my desk to even up the playing field. A good mind is way more powerful than your perfect physique. My Grandmother could have taken you without a breaking a sweat.


Again with the hypocrisy and double standards. You and your Grandad would happily hunt a human being. And you have the nerve to call me abnormal.



Originally posted by InDirectViolation
Are you a member of the Aryan Nation or the Nazi Party?

If you ever find yourself the victim of a handicap, feel free to do away with yourself. OK?


Neither.

More double standards as well. You have a problem with me being pro-killing-babies-that-are-disabled. However, you're asking me to commit suicide if I become handicaped in anyway. How odd.



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 11:56 AM
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Well shauny, I suggest you check out the following link. In your perfect world these people would all be dead, even the normal ones. :shk:



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by DYepes
Well shauny, just how much are you actually doing for the human race? At least Ghost is doing a good deed for society. He's helping build teamwork, discipline, and tolerance for some youth who may just as well be hanging out in the streets wasting their lives with drugs and crime. for that I congradulate him, and feel that he is helping make the human race stronger by building strong characteristics in developing youths.


As Ghost pointed out, we have actors with disabilities, people in high up places with disabilities.. However, this is not what I'm contesting. Sure a person with a disability can become an actor or go to university, but that in no way changes who they are and what they are inside.


Absolutely right. You can also insert the phrase "person without a disabilty" into your response and it would still be true.



Maybe I should become a scout leader so I can help the human race..


What a great idea!


I couldn't stand to be disabled. I'd most likely save all the effort of getting a euthanasia law passed and just od. We put animals down, why should humans be any different?


I hope you never have to find yourself in that situation, I really do; but the chances are good that at some point in your life you will find yourself at least temporarily disabled. What then?


The odds of becoming disabled depend on a number of factors, including age, health condition, and type of occupation. For many people, disability presents a much greater likelihood at their current age than does death. For example, at age 42 you are three times more likely to become disabled than die.

The chance of becoming disabled decreases somewhat with age, but the average duration of a disability tends to increase with age. Most disabilities last from a few weeks to a few months. At age 40, the average length of disabilities, lasting more than 90 days, is 5.5 years. At any age, however, there is a chance of becoming totally and permanently disabled. insurance.freeadvice.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Link



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 01:59 PM
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to be honest i was just messing, just seeing reactions and so on..

i do however think it should be acceptable that in extreme circumstances, a decision such as euthasasia for new borns could be carried out. they have the same concept for abortion, if you go for an ultra sound they can tell you this babies going to be born deformed, with heart troubles etc. if these aren't recognised during ultra sound scans, but are when the baby is born, such as heart diseases or serious spinal problems and so on, then i think the doctors and parents can make an informed decision on that baby's life.



posted on Nov, 10 2006 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
to be honest i was just messing, just seeing reactions and so on..


Well, I'm not laughing! You need to think before you say something. Every human has feeling, and you need to be aware of that. When this stared, I was Fine with it. However, once you stared with stuff like:



meh, disabled people bring the rest of humanity down. hitler would have sorted them out..


I find the above comment hurtful and offensive. Your saying that having a disability makes you worthless and nothing more than a burden to be disposed of!

IF I told you that you are worthless, and shouldn't even be alive, You would feel insaulted and hurt too!



However, the fact that you have CP shows that you are in fact weaker, less kinks in our gene pool we have, the better.


This is NOT an argument about the subject. You choose to come at Me with a very Hurtful PERSONAL ATTACK! This was not funny, and it was not relivent. For the record, there is Nothing Genetic about my CP. I was normal when I was born, but a doctor being careless caused the never damage that resaulted in me having Cerebral Palsy. My family even won a leagle suit after the Doctor Admitted to the mistake that caused my CP.

Telling me I'm "inferior" because of what happen to me and the problems I now have is Very hurtful and insaulting. I'm not coming back at you just to argue, I want you to learn to be a bit more tolerant and NOT assume that everything is genetic, or that lives have no value.

I'm not here to beat on you, but I want you to be a bit more open minded! Denying Ignorance is about being willing to challange your beliefs and being willing to learn about the world around you. Take a lesson from this debate, and learn what others have to offer this world.

Dispite the fact that you chose to resort to tastless humor and personal atttacks, I wish you well. With this, I willclose for now.

Tim

[edit on 10-11-2006 by Ghost01]



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by Ghost01
I find the above comment hurtful and offensive. Your saying that having a disability makes you worthless and nothing more than a burden to be disposed of!


It's funny that you found what I had to say hurtful, because after what I said, I recieved comments such as insults, that certain people would like to hunt me and shoot me, and that people would be very happy to see me commit suicide (to take myself out of the equation).


Originally posted by Ghost01
IF I told you that you are worthless, and shouldn't even be alive, You would feel insaulted and hurt too!


I wouldn't, and I don't. I'm really not that touchy.


Originally posted by Ghost01
This is NOT an argument about the subject. You choose to come at Me with a very Hurtful PERSONAL ATTACK! This was not funny, and it was not relivent.


Shooting and hunting was also not funny and not relivent to the topic, but one person decided that himself and his Grandad would have happily done so.


Originally posted by Ghost01
I'm not here to beat on you, but I want you to be a bit more open minded! Denying Ignorance is about being willing to challange your beliefs and being willing to learn about the world around you. Take a lesson from this debate, and learn what others have to offer this world.


I did take one lesson from this. That if you spread hate, you don't often find that people will try and show you love to help you, but instead they'll show you hate, and throw that right back at you. And it wasn't to 'have a laugh', it was to see people'e reactions. I'm not ashamed of what I said, because I wasn't being honest, but everything you said and people said about wanting me to kill myself and so on.. That was all true, you all showed your true colors there.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by shaunybaby]



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
I did take one lesson from this. That if you spread hate, you don't often find that people will try and show you love to help you, but instead they'll show you hate, and throw that right back at you. And it wasn't to 'have a laugh', it was to see people'e reactions. I'm not ashamed of what I said, because I wasn't being honest, but everything you said and people said about wanting me to kill myself and so on.. That was all true, you all showed your true colors there.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by shaunybaby]


I'll agree with you on that! As for my part, I honestly hope I didn't offend you.

What you saw was how you can provoke other people's emotions. For my part, I'll admit that I lashed out at you in my post on the 9th of November. Sometimes I'm a bit more irritable than others.

As for my point, even when you try to test people's reactions, you need to consider the feeling of others. Now I see what you were up to, but I'm still a bit angry that you would take it so far to prove a point. However you DID prove that when you take anyting to an emotional level, few people can be rational.

Good point, but I still think you went much too far! I even complained to the Forum Staff that you were useing personal attacks. Please be careful with stuff like this. When you spread messages of hate (even if they aren't meant seriously), you are crossing a moral line!

Tim



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 04:53 PM
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well, we (the US) are at 300 million now and 400 million in less than twenty years.

i predict overpopulation will be the next big political issue. imposing fines for having too many kids is just a few years away IMO. it will soon become painfully obvious that there are too many people in the world. we will have to decide weather to sap all of earths resources faster than she can provide them or do something about these people breeding like rabbits.

babies born having defects that will eventually make them a burden to society should be terminated. it sounds like nazi ideology but, its the way its has always been, before modern medicine that is. animals born in the wild that are born with defects are left to die so in effect they cannot reproduce and tarnish the gene pool. its the way nature works. i think humans have over stepped there bounds in this respect.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by HereticHulk]



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by HereticHulk

it sounds like nazi ideology




Yep. It does, cuz it is.





but, its the way its has always been, before modern medicine that is.




The evidence shows that modern medicine and modern industry create most, if not ALL so-called "genetic defects."

They're new. We haven't seen them before. Think about what that might mean.





animals born in the wild that are born with defects are left to die so in effect they cannot reproduce and tarnish the gene pool. its the way nature works.




Observations about animals are colored by cultural and chauvinistic expectations - and often, greatly inaccurate.




i think humans have over stepped there bounds in this respect.




Me too.

With respect to the new mutations and so-called "genetic defects" turning up in the human gene pool - we have NO WAY of knowing which ones will lead to successful adaptations, and preserve the human species.

We interfere at our own peril.


.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by soficrow]



posted on Nov, 11 2006 @ 08:24 PM
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Sofi,

You rock. No, you ROCK.


First step: Convince everyone that we are nothing more than animals.
Second step: Rob us of our humanity and treat us accordingly.
Third step: See China's One Child Policy
Fourth step: See 50,000,000 dead females. (ten times the size of the holocaust)

Rather than trying to find ways to kill more of us, wouldn't it be better to put all that money and energy into finding alternatives to death?



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