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This May Be The Most Politically Incorrect Post Ever.

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posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 12:02 PM
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First, I hope that this is the correct forum to post this.

I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. The political correctness of the USA right now makes me nauseous. I do believe that a degree of political corectness is very good, necessary actually. But as a whole it has gone so far over the top, that it is mind boggling. Absolutely mind boggling. To go into the details of what I'm speaking of is redundant, and not the purpose of this thread.
If I had the ability to make things change, there are so many things I would do, and I would be dubbed as a politically incorrect heathen.

First off - I would make ENGLISH the official language. Period. Remember the "outrage" a month or so back when that was brought up?
Never again have to "press 1" for English. Speak in your house whatever language you like, teach your children whatever language(s) you want, but when you're out and about in the USA, English is the language that is spoken by the populace.

Borders would be sealed. There would be background checks on every single person who comes into this country. Their whereabouts would be monitored. If something didn't add up, sorry, turn around and go home.

Student Visas? HAH! There are many US citizens who can't get into college, but a foreigner comes over, takes a US citizens place, then goes back to their country to use their knowledge many times against the US' interests. Round up every single person who is here on a student Visa, and scrutinize them under a microscope. Something doesn't add up, send them home on the next flight.

ALL benefits, from Social Security to unemployment and everything else, will cease to be granted to ANYONE who is not a US citizen.

If you are here illegally - You're going home immediately. You want to stay, then apply for citizenship, do what you have to do, and become a citizen.

The death penalty would be used much more. DO NOT take this out of context. If there is a cut and dry case, a date with the needle. Cases like the BTK killer, where there is absolutely no doubt of his guilt. Kill him immediately. No appeals, no decades of living off of my tax dollars. I don't want to hear about cruel and unusual punishment. That scumbag who murdered an entire family by putting them in a pit then shooting them is crying because he's afraid the needle will hurt. Cut me a break. Kill the SOB. I don't care if your "legally insane" or not. If you're a danger to society, then you are a danger to society. I don't want to hear, that "His/Her childhood was a bad one...."
My childhood was no party, trust me. But I don't decide to go and rape and/or kill anyone.
You commit rape - you die. You molest a child - you die. You commit murder - you die. The revenues saved by doing this are more than likely staggering.

Bring the majority of troops home from all around the globe. The other countries don't want us there, and are ungrateful for the help. And frankly, I don't see how anything will change. The US is just throwing money away stationing our troops overseas, not to mention how it really thins out the military should a REAL need arise. Peace keepers? Sorry, but let the other countries deal with their own problems. For instance, the 2 Koreas.

As a small business owner, I know how difficult it is to get any type of a business loan. It is extremely difficult. Why is it so easy for a foreign business owner to get a loan? Why do foreign business owners get the tax breaks they do?

Why do we dump Billions of dollars per year on other countries, when my kids don't have computers in their schools.
When senior citizens can't afford to buy the medication they NEED.
When there are children who are hungry and cold, because their parents can't find good employment.

When I have to see people sleeping on the streets because they have no home. Often times these homeless people are veterans.

When I see an entire city devestated by Katrina, and the country can't seem to fix anything. There are still people who are living in temporary housing.

The list goes on and on, yet we still dump Billions of dollars helping other countries.

Don't take this out of context. I'm simply saying, take care of our own FIRST. I do not wish pain or suffering to any other nation. I hold no animosity towards any other nation, nor their people. That being said, at the risk of being politically incorrect, I do believe that the US has alot of things that need to be taken care of, and could be if they would stop worrying about "offending" someone.

Just my 2 cents




posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 12:30 PM
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I agree with you on all but two points. Social Security should be based on how much you put into the system, not if you are a citizen. Someone I know has been in this country woking and paying into ss for many many years and for what ever reason she is not a citizen. She should still get her SS benifits. I feel this is the fair way to do it. In this area I hear of many who come to this country, become a citizen and collect SS and have never worked a day contributing to it. This is wrong imo. Also the death penalty, I feel that death is to easy for some of these killers and raping scum. Let them suffer in jail for the rest of their lives, put them to work, make them make money to give to the victims and or the families. I personaly dont have a prob paying for those. Now on the other hand I hate the idea of paying for people who are in for minor offences and victimless crimes.
Anyway thats my 2 cents



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 12:38 PM
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haha well i agree with a few of ur points,

i remember been in Miami,and a american behind me was asking for a Dr pepper,the girl didnt have a clue what he was on about she had to point at all the drinks to work out which he wanted,"#ing hell am i not in America"he asked himself,

Its the same over here I know muslims in my own town which is only about 15% ethnic minorities that dont speak english,
I remember watching a racist comeadien called the Diceman i think it was in 6th form,the teacher wanted us to see how racist he was ,but he was kinda funny(better than bernard manning crap)said he got in a taxi and the guy couldnt understand him he ended the "joke" saying "If you dont speak the language get the # out the country" and maybe shame on me I agree,



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 12:39 PM
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You have voted lombozo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 01:50 PM
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I can agree with your basic opinion: Take care of your own first. Which we should do, and can do. It's a matter of priorities and will. No excuses.

However-


Originally posted by lombozo
First off - I would make ENGLISH the official language. Period.


I think we should establish English as the "official" language. However, remember we are primarily a nation of immigrants. Go back far enough and you will probably have someone in your family who emigrated here. I'm all for accomodating those who come here lawfully and participate legally. Much of the call prompt situation you refer to is done by businesses who want to do business with the immigrant population. There's money to be made there, and those businesses don't want to turn it away. You certainly have the right to not patronize the companies who are making it easier for non-English speakers. Vote with your dollars. (BTW, I do business with plenty of firms who make it easy for immigrants, and don't find it to be a significant hindrance).


Originally posted by lombozo
Borders would be sealed. There would be background checks on every single person who comes into this country. Their whereabouts would be monitored. If something didn't add up, sorry, turn around and go home.


I agree. Securing our borders should be a primary goal.


Originally posted by lombozo
Student Visas? HAH! There are many US citizens who can't get into college, but a foreigner comes over, takes a US citizens place, then goes back to their country to use their knowledge many times against the US' interests. Round up every single person who is here on a student Visa, and scrutinize them under a microscope. Something doesn't add up, send them home on the next flight.


Sounds good on paper, but where do we get the manpower to perform that task? I'm not sure it's practical, but if there's a way to thoroughly screen holders of student visas, then we should. Maybe make it the responsibility of the resident country before they even get here? And if they're not from a "friendly" and cooperative nation, then why would we take them, anyway?


Originally posted by lombozo
ALL benefits, from Social Security to unemployment and everything else, will cease to be granted to ANYONE who is not a US citizen.


Absolutely. But see below.


Originally posted by lombozo
If you are here illegally - You're going home immediately. You want to stay, then apply for citizenship, do what you have to do, and become a citizen.


I've got no problem with that. I'll add we should penalize the hell out of any business who hires undocumented workers. Until we're willing to do that, the illegal immigration problem is a BS political talking point that the government has neither the intent nor will to fix. This problem goes away tomorrow if we start incarcerating the CEOs of the biggest offending corporations and levying big fines to the companies. Not gonna happen, at least anytime soon. Follow the money.



Originally posted by lombozo
The death penalty would be used much more.


This is where we probably disagree the most. I don't trust the government to levy property taxes properly, much less have life-or-death call on any individual. I don't have any faith in the ability of "society" to make that call on anything approaching a fair and equitable basis. It's too irrevocable. Now personally, if somebody killed one of my family members, I'd do everything I could to go after them myself and turn their lights out. Most people would. And that's why I'm against the government having anything to do with it. Sometimes the government needs to act to save us from the worst in our nature. IMO.

I don't disagree with anything remaining, but I'll just say: Think about the other issues you outlined in your post. Basically they're a result of the government's shortcomings, and failure of will. Are these really the people you want deciding whether or not someone lives or dies? Well, them and 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty.

BTW, I've served on 3 juries myself and considered it a civic duty to serve. But if I never get called to serve again, it won't hurt my feelings.

Good post.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 02:15 PM
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Hey yeahright.
Very lucid, and valid points.



I think we should establish English as the "official" language. However, remember we are primarily a nation of immigrants. Go back far enough and you will probably have someone in your family who emigrated here. I'm all for accomodating those who come here lawfully and participate legally. Much of the call prompt situation you refer to is done by businesses who want to do business with the immigrant population.


You made my point for me. My ancestors did come over. I am 2nd generation American from both sides of my family. My Grandparents learned the language. My grandfather was very proud to become an American. He took great pride in the fact that he learned the language. The call prompt situation. If a business WANTS to do it, that's fine. I just don't want it mandated. From businesses, to ATM machines. It's a major pet-peeve of mine.




Sounds good on paper, but where do we get the manpower to perform that task? I'm not sure it's practical, but if there's a way to thoroughly screen holders of student visas, then we should. Maybe make it the responsibility of the resident country before they even get here? And if they're not from a "friendly" and cooperative nation, then why would we take them, anyway?


The manpower needed wouldn't be that great I believe. There are plenty of resources available to do this. Ever bought a house and had a title search done? It's absolutely scary the information that comes out about you. Every detail from traffic tickets, to banking information - everything. And that's just to purchase a home! I'm sure that there are databases that can be tweaked to perform this. I think you have a good idea making it the responsibility of the resident country. I think it should be a cooperation of the 2 countries.




This is where we probably disagree the most. I don't trust the government to levy property taxes properly, much less have life-or-death call on any individual. I don't have any faith in the ability of "society" to make that call on anything approaching a fair and equitable basis. It's too irrevocable.


That's why I prefaced it with the "Cut and Dry" cases. We all know of cases where there has been tape, and/or many witnesses, or whatever to these heinous crimes. These are the ones I'm speaking of for the immediate death penalty.
The others, well what happened to "speedy trial". None of this decades BS. Cases should be tried immediately, sentences handed down immediately - within a 60 day period, and carried out within a 48 hour period.




BTW, I've served on 3 juries myself and considered it a civic duty to serve. But if I never get called to serve again, it won't hurt my feelings.

Good post.



I admire your serving, that's cool. And thank you for the kind words.
Stay Cool



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 03:13 PM
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Allow me to begin by saying great post. Thought provoking and well done. The title probably has members just itching to tear you a new strip, but you leave them no place. You make solid points without bashing anyone.


However we disagree on some things.


Originally posted by lombozo
The death penalty would be used much more.


Much more or more efficient? I would strongly disagree with much more, however more efficiently is something I could support. I agree that some monsters do not deserve the years of appeals and maybe the system should have some sort of loop whole. But in time they would be exploited which would possibly put an innocent man in the ground. I'm sitting on the fence for Capital punishment, so using it more is without a doubt a no no. But adjusting the system that is already in place is something I am up to discuss.


Originally posted by lombozo
You commit rape - you die. You molest a child - you die. You commit murder - you die. The revenues saved by doing this are more than likely staggering.


Are you familiar with the actual costs of putting a man to death? I believe it is a common misconception among many of us. I fully understand why people justify these actions, and maybe I am wrong to disagree. But I would not support the death penalty here. There are extenuating circumstances where I could see it being possible, but its not cut and dry. To consider capital punishment, a black and white issue, is wrong. I'm not going to waste our time by trying to defend certain cases of this crime, but we should understand that not all are the same. Some deserve a stiff punishment, but two wrongs don't make a right. Taking another life does not bring back the last one.


Originally posted by lombozo
Why do we dump Billions of dollars per year on other countries, when my kids don't have computers in their schools.


Saving the lives of innocent children in Africa and giving a child in America a internet access, easy decision in my books. However, your message is loud and clear. How can we defend this? I'm not sure how to discuss this one. Why do we turn our backs on children in our back yard who are dieing, so save children millions of miles away? I don't know, we just do. We all know the quote, with great power comes great responsibility, well this is a burden I guess. I would be very disappointed if we turned our back on third world countries to save our own first. A life in Africa is just as important as a life in our own backyard, we are in no position to make that decision. Do our damnedest to save both.



Originally posted by lombozo
When there are children who are hungry and cold, because their parents can't find good employment.


Were going to bring up more issues than we want to here. More extenuating circumstances to examine if we really want to take the problems of this issue on. The government is making mistakes on this issue without a doubt, but before we point every finger at the government, I think we need to look at the parents. I come from a poor family who never had a large income, but we made the best of what we had. I always has good clothes and a warm meal, so I was not exactly as bad off as some, but it was only because the sacrifices my parents made.


Originally posted by lombozo
When I have to see people sleeping on the streets because they have no home. Often times these homeless people are veterans.
When I see an entire city devestated by Katrina, and the country can't seem to fix anything. There are still people who are living in temporary housing.


These are major issues, but the solution to this problem is not cutting off support to other countries. The problem here lies in the government itself, not the system.


Originally posted by lombozo
The list goes on and on, yet we still dump Billions of dollars helping other countries.


A life is a life is a life. Saving one in your backyard is no greater deed than saving one a million miles away.

I applaud your willingness to take this stance and tackle this issues. But saving a life in Africa in just as important to me, so I would not support pulling funds from one in order to save a life in our own country. Were all humans, we all deserve help when were in need. So rather than pulling the plug on others, lets revamp the system and possibly put more emphasis on the people in our country.

I question the billions that are dropped on a defense system. Why not have a second look at this expenditure? I'm sure a few bucks can be redirected to saving an innocent life in Africa rather than killing an innocent life in Iraq.




posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 07:14 PM
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You have voted lombozo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Right on!



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 08:46 PM
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Well i'm getting my student visa so I can go to college in new york
It's not my fault if do better on the SAT than 70% of the american kids so...
nyah nyah na nyah naaaa
I just want to live with my family. LOL @ screening for student visas,(sarcasm on) yeah, those looow standard colleges will let anyone in huh?(sarcasm off)



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by Elijio
Well i'm getting my student visa so I can go to college in new york
It's not my fault if do better on the SAT than 70% of the american kids so...
nyah nyah na nyah naaaa
I just want to live with my family. LOL @ screening for student visas,(sarcasm on) yeah, those looow standard colleges will let anyone in huh?(sarcasm off)


First off, congratulations on your college acceptance! You want to live with your family - something else I applaud.
If you re-read my post, I didn't say to stop student visas. I said that anyone here on a student visa should be scrutinized very closely. In the past, the scrutinization was quite lax. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't members of Osama Bin Ladens family here in the states being educated in our colleges? Now I know this is absurd, but let's just say that they are studying Nuclear Technology, or Biological Science dealing with "superbugs", I think the alarm should go off.




Much more or more efficient? I would strongly disagree with much more, however more efficiently is something I could support. I agree that some monsters do not deserve the years of appeals and maybe the system should have some sort of loop whole. But in time they would be exploited which would possibly put an innocent man in the ground. I'm sitting on the fence for Capital punishment, so using it more is without a doubt a no no. But adjusting the system that is already in place is something I am up to discuss.


Much more, and much more efficient. It is the Monsters that I speak of that should be taken care of immediately. It is ONLY the cut and dry cases that I speak of when saying immediately. These monsters absolutely do not deserve decades of things I work so hard to provide for my family. What do I mean? They have 3 square meals a day. They get medical coverage, cable TV, can work out and get in premium physical shape, can get a college education, can even sue the governing bodies. Remember a couple years back when an inmate sued the governing body at the time because his pie wasn't a perfect wedge? For the cases that are not absolute, then the standard trial process takes place - IMMEDIATELY. No waiting years for a trial, just so some scumbag defense attorney can say "Well it's been a long time since the alleged crime took place, are you sure that your memory is correct?"....




I agree with you on all but two points. Social Security should be based on how much you put into the system, not if you are a citizen. Someone I know has been in this country woking and paying into ss for many many years and for what ever reason she is not a citizen. She should still get her SS benifits. I feel this is the fair way to do it. In this area I hear of many who come to this country, become a citizen and collect SS and have never worked a day contributing to it.


Well said, I agree with you.




quote: Originally posted by lombozo
You commit rape - you die. You molest a child - you die. You commit murder - you die. The revenues saved by doing this are more than likely staggering.



Are you familiar with the actual costs of putting a man to death? I believe it is a common misconception among many of us. I fully understand why people justify these actions, and maybe I am wrong to disagree. But I would not support the death penalty here.


Interesting question, actually, no I don't have any idea what the costs are for putting a man to death. I do know that when I had to put my ailing dog to sleep, it cost less than a hundred US dollars. There was no pain to the animal. She just fell asleep in my arms. Just like that. I was the one who was weeping and in pain. If that's too expensive - then you only have to buy a lynching rope once or twice a year.




Saving the lives of innocent children in Africa and giving a child in America a internet access, easy decision in my books. However, your message is loud and clear. How can we defend this? I'm not sure how to discuss this one. Why do we turn our backs on children in our back yard who are dieing, so save children millions of miles away?


Very well said. This is an excellent topic for a debate. I can see both sides, but still stand by my original post.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by lombozo
Interesting question, actually, no I don't have any idea what the costs are for putting a man to death.


I've researched this issue before, but the exact figures escape me so lets have a second look.



Death Penalty has Cost New Jersey Taxpayers $253 Million

A New Jersey Policy Perspectives report concluded that the state's death penalty has cost taxpayers $253 million since 1983, a figure that is over and above the costs that would have been incurred had the state utilized a sentence of life without parole instead of death. The study examined the costs of death penalty cases to prosecutor offices, public defender offices, courts, and correctional facilities. The report's authors said that the cost estimate is "very conservative" because other significant costs uniquely associated with the death penalty were not available. "From a strictly financial perspective, it is hard to reach a conclusion other than this: New Jersey taxpayers over the last 23 years have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed no one," the report concluded.

Death PenaltyInfo.Org



A lot of the costs that go into an execution go unnoticed by the general public. I wasn't aware of them until I began to do some research into the subject.

Some more facts:



Every major cost study has shown capital punishment to be more expensive than an alternative system where life-imprisonment is the maximum sentence. To see why, note that only a small fraction of the cases that start out as capital trials actually result in a death sentence, and only about 10% of those death sentences result in an execution. The 784 inmates executed (as of June 26th, 2002) since 1976 are only a fraction of the roughly 7,000 death sentences in that time, which sprang from an even larger number of trials.

Yet, all of these cases were more expensive from the beginning, regardless of their final outcome, because they began as capital trials. Death penalty trials are more expensive than ordinary murder trials. They entail more pre-trial preparation time, more attorneys, longer jury selections, more expert witnesses, and a heightened level of due process. They are 3 to 5 times longer, and the defendant is less likely to simply plead guilty to avoid a trial if there is a chance of being executed.

Considering the small percentage of executions that result, these expenses are a burden on the justice system. Yet, doing away with them without also getting rid of capital punishment would be unwise. Since 1976, over 100 people have been released from death row based on newly discovered evidence of their innocence - almost 13% of the number executed!

www.fguide.org...


Below are a few more snips of information from the same site:



According to Richard Dieter, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center in Washington, D.C., the most comprehensive cost study was published by Duke University researchers in 1993. This two-year study determined North Carolina's capital cases cost at least an extra $2.16 million per execution, compared to what taxpayers would have spent if defendants were tried without the death penalty and sentenced to life in prison. Applying those figures nationally would mean $1.69 billion were spent on the 784 executions carried out nationwide since 1976 (in 1993 dollars).
---

Some county governments have neared bankruptcy to fund their capital trials. In Sierra County, California, authorities had to cut police services in 1988 to pay for the cost of pursuing death penalty prosecutions. In another case of wasted money, over 500 New Jersey police officers were laid off in 1991, while the state spent $16 million on the death penalty - more than enough to hire 500 officers at a salary of $30,000 each. In Texas, prisoners were serving only one-fifth of their sentences in the early 1990s, due to prison overcrowding, while the state spent $183 million over six years on executions.


So where does this leave anyone? Families without jobs, counties filing for bankruptcy, crime rate not going down, etc., what does any of this prove to justify capital punishment?

So the figures are estimated at, about $750,000 to house an inmate in Texas for 40 years. While over $2 million is required to foot the appeals of an inmate on death row. Who wins here?

We all lose.

The statement that we should just kill them, to save money is a seriously flawed one.

So that brings up the point, skip all of the appeals process. Well we do it the first time on a real, cut and dry case. Next time when its not so cut and dry, do we push for the hasty execution again? And then again? How long before the process is turned into a weekend event and we are putting innocent men into the ground.

There are more points to discuss here, so do not allow my post to hijack the true message here. I just wanted to indicate some figures of the costs at hand.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by chissler]



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 09:09 AM
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I am comming in way late in this post. But the cost figures given for executions are based on Present system of executions.

I think it would be simpler to do executions the way the Chinese did or do it. As soon as the appeal is done, take them out and shoot them in the head, Immediately.

49 cents max cost depending on caliber.

Executions are a poltical hot nest due to the passion of the supporters and the disenters to the method. There are some who are sitting on death row because of activist lawyers who appeal for the accused without even consulintg thier Client. No wonder the costs are skyrocketing for convicted death pentalty imates.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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Chissler, as usual you've come up with some great information. Thanks for that!


Originally posted by chissler
So that brings up the point, skip all of the appeals process. Well we do it the first time on a real, cut and dry case. Next time when its not so cut and dry, do we push for the hasty execution again? And then again? How long before the process is turned into a weekend event and we are putting innocent men into the ground.


That is why there is a trial by jury system. The trials need to be quick, with every single technique that science has being used by competent operators to ensure accurate outcomes.




Originally posted by kitanis
I am comming in way late in this post. But the cost figures given for executions are based on Present system of executions.

I think it would be simpler to do executions the way the Chinese did or do it. As soon as the appeal is done, take them out and shoot them in the head, Immediately.

49 cents max cost depending on caliber.

Executions are a poltical hot nest due to the passion of the supporters and the disenters to the method. There are some who are sitting on death row because of activist lawyers who appeal for the accused without even consulintg thier Client. No wonder the costs are skyrocketing for convicted death pentalty imates.


Case and point, IMHO.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 02:57 PM
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I understand the people we speak of here have committed horrific acts. But we still can not remove their basic human rights. We live in a civilized society, when we begin to remove the basic rights of people, where do we draw the line? Rather than leaving this in the middle of the continuum, we always invoke the rights of every human.

No matter what we have done in life, we have the right to die in a respectable manner. Even if we have committed murder, and taken another souls life, we still have the right to die with respect. Some like it, some don't. But it is our society, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I ask you this question:


Originally posted by kitanis
I think it would be simpler to do executions the way the Chinese did or do it. As soon as the appeal is done, take them out and shoot them in the head, Immediately.


If we were to execute people in this manner, what would make us any better than the murderers on the street? We would be on the same level, and no better. But wait, they are criminals, it is the right thing to do. Well if I go out and rob a bank, does that give you the right to pop a bullet in my head? No, so why do we grant this right to our government?

The system is the system, there is room for revisions but what were asking here is immoral.

A murderer is a murderer, no matter who the victim is.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by lombozo
Never again have to "press 1" for English.


Press 1 for english is not an inconvenience. It is not a problem. There's nothing wrong with it. I think it would be healthy for people who are really upset about it to step back and ask themselves why. Is it a problem because pressing one hurts your finger and wastes precious milliseconds of your day, or because you are scared of the fact that demographics are changing and not everyone in this nation is like you? In my experience, anger is caused by 2 things, almost exclusively: injury, and fear of injury. If pressng one makes you angry, and it's not injuring you, then I suspect that maybe you're afraid of spanish-speakers gaining the majority. You should investigate the reason for this fear in yourself and then do whatever you need to do to find out if that fear is warranted or not. The worst case scenario, you'll find your fears to be well-founded and you can do something about it before they come to fruition. The best case scenario: you'll find them ill-founded and you'll be a happier person from now on.



Borders would be sealed. There would be background checks on every single person who comes into this country. Their whereabouts would be monitored. If something didn't add up, sorry, turn around and go home.


Sounds like something my great grandma would have said... of course she'd be talking about you: Illegal immigrants did a number on my grandma's country, namely the Choctaw nation.


Student Visas? HAH! There are many US citizens who can't get into college, but a foreigner comes over, takes a US citizens place, then goes back to their country to use their knowledge many times against the US' interests.


Actually there are relatively few Americans who CAN'T get into college. There are many who lack the work ethic and there are many who can't afford it. If more Americans could hack it, there'd be room for them. Since there aren't however, foreign students are a good way to decrease the percapita cost of American college educations. Take my Intro to government class as an example: 35 roster spots, 30 enrolled, three Japanese student visa holders, one Romanian, and one Chinese. If you kicked out the five exchange students (who pay well over double what I do per unit because only locals are subsidized) then the percapita cost of enrollment in that class goes up by over 15%, resulting in a tax increase for you if you live in my community, because you're subsidizing the same facility and less of the burden is being paid by the tuition of foreign students. In other words, student visas act as a defacto export commodity, bringing foreign payments into our country. They're good for us. Incidentally, as an English tutor I develop relationships with many of the foreign students at my college. Almost without exception they intend to gain permanent legal residence and put their American educations to work in the American economy.


ALL benefits, from Social Security to unemployment and everything else, will cease to be granted to ANYONE who is not a US citizen.


That's right. Resident aliens should pay taxes to support citizens without reaping the benefits of the programs that they help us pay for. They're second class citizens because they aren't white like us and speak with funny accents. [ / ignorance ]


If you are here illegally - You're going home immediately.

I think you mean to say "you should be going home immediately". God knows I agree with you on this one, but while we're stating the extremely unlikely as if it were certainly going to happen tomorrow, you may as well manifest a little red sports car for me.


The death penalty would be used much more. DO NOT take this out of context. If there is a cut and dry case, a date with the needle.No appeals, no decades of living off of my tax dollars.


Mostly agreed, however here's food for thought: Are you really speaking from a sense of fiscal and moral responsibility or are you just expressing a general lack of sympathy for those with whom you share nothing in common? Here's a way to check: Do you favor incarceration for drug users?
If you're just being morally and fiscally responsible, you probably answered no.
If you just like quick simple answers regardless of cost (as long as that cost doesn't touch you) you probably answered yes.

Using fines, public service, and probation on drug offenders would save you far more money than faster executions and would serve a moral purpose by taking minor offenders out of institutions which are statistically likely to produce recidivists.

So, what does your drug policy match your capital punishment policy? Are you a conservative or just another republican?


Bring the majority of troops home from all around the globe. The other countries don't want us there, and are ungrateful for the help.


Yeah, we've helped the crap out of the Iraqis didn't we, and look at the thanks we get: strategically important military bases, major booms for defense contractors, access to strategic oil reserves, but not one thankyou card. It's never been about helping anybody and if anybody tells you otherwise you should question either their motives, their intellect, or both. Know what you call a Kurd who doesn't live on top of an oil well? A Fur (look it up). That'll tell you what you need to do about US Peace Keeping.

Some nations I would bring our troops home from, others I would not. The point has nothing to do with the benevolence of America though. There isn't enough of that going around for it to be an issue. The point is the interests of America. We can't just pull out of Korea because we feel like the South Koreans aren't walking a hard enough line: that's a decision we have to make based on the value of our relations with Korea and the strategic stability of the region. Ditto Japan. Ditto Kuwait. It's not like we keep bases oversees to create jobs in the surrounding area. We do it either to have military access or as a subtle way of buying off the government in question for their backing in the UN.


Why do we dump Billions of dollars per year on other countries, when my kids don't have computers in their schools.


So that your kids won't have to go to those countries later in life with M-16s in hand. We tried isolationism before and by the time we got our heads out of our nethers this highstrung little Bavarian who could have been dealt with by a company of drunken Marines on leave back in the early 30s had a first air force and tank army roaming Europe at will and jack-slapping every friend we had. What could have ended as a bar brawl in Munich or a police action in Czechoslovokia turned into a world war, and the resulting shakeup of the geopolitical landscape yielded a subsequent coldwar to boot.

Any other questions or do you feel like yours sons are getting a pretty good deal now?


When senior citizens can't afford to buy the medication they NEED.

I agree it's a problem but I believe the sollution concerns the way we fund and regulate industries which deal in the necessities of life. Incidentally, if we were to do that we'd reduce the cost of medication and thereby reduce the amount of aid needed overseas, thus killing (or at least wounding) two birds with one stone.


When there are children who are hungry and cold, because their parents can't find good employment.


You should call CPS. I know a thing or two about hard times but I've never known someone who was willing to work and knew how to manage money responsibily who couldn't feed their children.


When I see an entire city devestated by Katrina, and the country can't seem to fix anything. There are still people who are living in temporary housing.

Don't be given the mistaken impression that America can't help New Orleans. We chose not to because certain concerns with greater clout than the average citizen of New Orleans stand to make a tidy profit on that land.


Don't take this out of context.


I'd like to end on a similar note because I don't know you. I want to make it clear that although I have a sarcastic and confrontational style I bring no malice to this discussion; I'm just emphatic. I'd be interested in hearing your take on my side of things... even if that take is that I'm some kind of socialist moron, cause hey... I might be.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 09:43 PM
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Just to spend a minute on the lighter side of this discussion, seeing as I did lay it on kind of thick, here are a couple things along Lambozo's line that I think I could get behind.

#1: If there's DNA evidence and a reliable eye witness, or DNA and a confession in a capital crime, execution is immediate... put a slip 'n' slide under the defendant's table that leads straight to the electric chair. Said slip 'n' slide shall be used in cases of aggravated rape as well as in murders.

#2: Major field of study quotas on student visas and priority acceptance for citizens. If we're swamped for nursing students (which we aren't) then Americans get first pick.

More to follow. gotta work



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 10:57 PM
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You have voted lombozo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


The other posters had excellent points, nobody was talking any crap. awesome posts, applause to everyone.

I love it when I find a topic like this where everyone has a good and valid point to discuss.

If congress worked this way we actually would be the greatest nation on earth !



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 11:20 PM
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Originally posted by lombozo
Never again have to "press 1" for English.

Making english the official language of the US means that government pamphlets are only printed in english. Businesses will still have spanish options, schools will still have ESL programmes, and people will still be speaking spanish. Heck, they'll probably speak it more, out of protest. There's no reason to make english the official language, and there's no reason to force people to 'speak english'. Its really not anywhere near the problem that people seem to think it is. Spanish speaking immigrants learn to speak english over time. Every immigrant group took time to adopt english. Many italian families, for instance, speak italian at home. and the first generation of kids born in the US speak english and italian.
Any immigrant group that moves to the US speaks english by the next native born generation.

but when you're out and about in the USA, English is the language that is spoken by the populace.

Its not. Its also not particularly important that it is. There's nothing particularly special about english. Its also not going anywhere, its the dominant language, every group that comes here adopts it.

Borders would be sealed.

How?

There would be background checks on every single person who comes into this country.

How? Everyone that enters the country legally already goes through a screening process.

Their whereabouts would be monitored. If something didn't add up, sorry, turn around and go home.

What counts as 'not adding up'?? And why exactly are we spending all this money, to build walls, moats, bureaucracies to monitor people? Because spanish shouldn't be spoken?

Student Visas? HAH! There are many US citizens who can't get into college,

People that can't get accepted by a college shouldn't be in college.

but a foreigner comes over, takes a US citizens place, then goes back to their country to use their knowledge many times against the US' interests.

Baloney. The US runs a 'brain drain' on the rest of the world, sucking up the capable, motivated, and intellegent, through its student visa programme, they overwhelmingly stay in the US and advance the US's technology and interests. If you want to shoot america in the foot, then yeah, go ahead, prevent smart people from comming here.
And they're not taking anyone's place. There isn't a 'place' for everyone, its based on merit.

ALL benefits, from Social Security to unemployment and everything else, will cease to be granted to ANYONE who is not a US citizen.

ANd how are you going to find out who is and who isn't a citizen? Social Security is already not paid to illegals.

The death penalty would be used much more. DO NOT take this out of context. If there is a cut and dry case, a date with the needle. Cases like the BTK killer, where there is absolutely no doubt of his guilt. Kill him immediately.

Is this really enough of a problem to worry about though?

No appeals, no decades of living off of my tax dollars.

And who decides who doesn't get an appeal? We already have a system for that, its the courts.

I don't want to hear, that "His/Her childhood was a bad one...."
My childhood was no party, trust me. But I don't decide to go and rape and/or kill anyone.

Why not just cut to the chase and eliminate defense lawyers, just arrest people and go straigh to jail.

You commit rape - you die. You molest a child - you die. You commit murder - you die. The revenues saved by doing this are more than likely staggering.

This is a tricky subject. It costs more, right now, to execute someone, than to let them live if prison on a life sentence.

Sorry, but let the other countries deal with their own problems. For instance, the 2 Koreas.

The US is only in its high position today because its been willing to send troops overseas, to stop the nazis and to stop the communists.

As a small business owner, I know how difficult it is to get any type of a business loan. It is extremely difficult. Why is it so easy for a foreign business owner to get a loan?

Why do you think that it is easy for them? Why do you think you are entitled to loans set aside to encourage foreign investment?

Why do we dump Billions of dollars per year on other countries, when my kids don't have computers in their schools.

The US government gives an incredibly small amount of its money to international aid. THe US gvt gives more, in absolute terms, than any other country. BUT, its only giving a small amount relative to what it has. The US gave around 32 billion in 2002. This is compared to 10.2 trillion dollars in GDP for that year. Thats .3%.
A third of a penny for every dollar isn't 'giving too much'.

When I have to see people sleeping on the streets because they have no home.

And so we're supposed to give homes to people for free?

[edit on 7-11-2006 by Nygdan]



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 11:33 PM
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lombozo:

great points and the main issue I would add is this: slash immigration and increase the birth rate within the country even if the government has to intervene to do it.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 11:53 PM
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Native Genius


Originally posted by Nygdan
Baloney. The US runs a 'brain drain' on the rest of the world, sucking up the capable, motivated, and intellegent, through its student visa programme, they overwhelmingly stay in the US and advance the US's technology and interests. If you want to shoot america in the foot, then yeah, go ahead, prevent smart people from comming here.
And they're not taking anyone's place. There isn't a 'place' for everyone, its based on merit.

This is no secret in the academic world.

The U.S. does a pretty good job of siphoning off some of the best and the brightest the world has to offer and attracting them here -- where us Americans reap the fruits of their genius.

My only complaint is that we aren't more aggressive about bringing them here, and that our schools aren't as competitive as they should be.



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