Rumsfeld et al to face War Crimes prosecution?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Umm... you're a sovereign leader and if you do not recognize the authority of the ICC the only way they can enforce their authority over you is through war.

In most of the countries in this world we have elected leaders. Sovereign leaders are kings, queens, czars ... And last time I checked US is a Republic.

As for Rummy.
I realy doesn't mater if this court can't enforce its will. If this court pass a guilty sentence on Rummy, that would at least satisfy a moral minimum of justice.

You know The Sword of Damocles thingy.

Originally posted by yanchek
In most of the countries in this world we have elected leaders. Sovereign leaders are kings, queens, czars ... And last time I checked US is a Republic..

I'm fairly sure "sovereignity" refers to rule-of-law, jurisdiction, etc...

Originally posted by yanchek... And last time I checked US is a Republic.

Was. It became an empire while you were out.

edit for wrong keystroke

[edit on 11/7/2006 by Matyas]

Some of you forget that Iraq violated U.N. sanctions, in which the use of force was allowed and suggested. We and a handful of other countries were the only ones that had the stones to enforce U.N. sanctions. And who ever said we have lost the war in Iraq is not fuctioning in reality. That country is a completely different country now. All different kinds of businesses are florishing. You people revel in the defeat. What is even more disgusting is there are actually Americans rooting for us to lose over there. You would have a completely different view if you really knew what Saddam had in for us. I remember seeing a mural in one of Saddam's palaces with a depiction of missiles being launched from Iraq and aimed at the US.
Illegal war...? Prove it! I guess Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of Canada, Austrailia, Canada etc. should be tried for war crimes as well.

This is ridiculous...Liberals are never happy unless they are in power and will do and say anything to get it back.

Originally posted by MrMedic
You would have a completely different view if you really knew what Saddam had in for us. I remember seeing a mural in one of Saddam's palaces with a depiction of missiles being launched from Iraq and aimed at the US.

Are you saying that Saddam had the ability to launch at the States? That's what that says to me.

Illegal war...? Prove it! I guess Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of Canada, Austrailia, Canada etc. should be tried for war crimes as well.

While Canada has troops fighting along sides coallition forces in Afghanistan, Canada actually does NOT support the action in Iraq.

Edit: fixed BB code, AGAIN!!!

[edit on 7-11-2006 by intrepid]

Sorry, the UN requires a resolution to authorize a war. Sanctions only allow for the possible declaration of war if broken, and member states vote on it. We sidestepped that by forming a coalition outside the UN. Kofi Annan did declare this war illegal.

Nah nah.

Originally posted by MrMedic
Some of you forget that Iraq violated U.N. sanctions, in which the use of force was allowed and suggested. We and a handful of other countries were the only ones that had the stones to enforce U.N. sanctions. And who ever said we have lost the war in Iraq is not fuctioning in reality. That country is a completely different country now. All different kinds of businesses are florishing. You people revel in the defeat. What is even more disgusting is there are actually Americans rooting for us to lose over there. You would have a completely different view if you really knew what Saddam had in for us. I remember seeing a mural in one of Saddam's palaces with a depiction of missiles being launched from Iraq and aimed at the US.
Illegal war...? Prove it! I guess Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of Canada, Austrailia, Canada etc. should be tried for war crimes as well.

This is ridiculous...Liberals are never happy unless they are in power and will do and say anything to get it back.

Hey there MrMedic(Love the handle!).

Iraq did slightly break some minor UN resolutions. If that is worth this, then why not go into Isreal? They have broken, and continue to break UN sanctions that are major(WMD's) and have repeated fired on UN peace keepers? If you are not going to inforce that, then going after Iraq for minor faults, doesn't show America had the stones - it showed quite the opposite.

As for the rest of the Iraq part of the post, I am sure you must be joking. Iraq is not in a better place. Nor did Saddam ever have it in for the US - it was the US that gave him all his weapons remember?

As for the PM of the UK, Australia and Canada; I can not speak for anyone in the UK or AU, but here in Canada there is talk about war crimes, but that probably will not be needed as Harper only has the slimist of minorities and can easily be overthrown by one party siding with the NDP(Socialists). Sadly, because the public opinion is that Canada is only in Afganistan, and that is seen as being much more legitimate than Iraq, fewer Canadians are outraged about it. But a healthy amount are.

BTW - You did lose. It is over. The American forces are contained within a few blocks and they are now the hunted when they leave their little bunker. It is sad that because of unchecked egos these brave people are being left to sacrfice their lives - that is their job if need be - but it shouldn't be done due to lies and that is exactly what Iraq was.

Originally posted by MrMedic
And who ever said we have lost the war in Iraq is not fuctioning in reality. That country is a completely different country now. All different kinds of businesses are florishing.

I'm afraid, Mr. Medic, that it's your grasp on reality that is about as firm and strong as a baby's on a buttered anvil. It IS a completely different country now. Completely messed up, as opposed to half-messed up, as it was before the invasion, under sanctions. Over half a million people killed and the turmoil continues. Unemployment is up, security is non-existent, death squads roam the cities and countryside, US troops shoot at random whenever they are attacked, which is not infrequently, the multinationals have concluded PSAs (Production Service Agreements) on oil production which are a very bad deal indeed for the Iraqis, women can only go out accompanied by burly menfolk, they must wear at least headscarves - preferably a burqa to avoid unwanted attention from Islamic extremists - and they can no longer work outside the home for fear of assault or worse.

Fallujah is once again proving difficult to subdue. The original problems there arose after the US army took over a school and refused to leave so that the local children could be educated. When local residents protested and refused to disperse, US soldiers fired on the crowd, kicking off a full-scale uprising. Now the town is undergoing its third major bout of resistance to the occupying forces:

Source

FALLUJAH, Iraq — When gunmen hid a bomb in front of his house a few days ago, intending to use it against U.S. or Iraqi troops, Majeed al-Rawi had only one option: Move out.

"If I report it to the Americans, I will be killed by the men who put it there, and if I don't, my family will be killed either by the explosion or the Americans," the car dealer said. "This is not a way to live; this is a way to hate life."

In recent months, insurgents have filtered back into the city, despite tight controls that limit access to only six checkpoints. Residents must submit to an extraordinary identification system that includes fingerprinting, retina scans and bar-coded identification cards.

An insurgent intimidation campaign has killed two city council members and at least 30 police officers. The campaign has been so effective that police patrols have all but stopped, as officers fear to walk the streets.

Of course, it's not easy to get accurate news out of Iraq. I don't know if the US is still paying PR companies to get pro-American stories into the local and international press, but reporters are being killed and attacked at quite an alarming rate. And in this story we find that the government is closing down TV stations for reporting the reactions to Saddam's death sentence.

All in all then, not a picture to inspire much confidence in the future: and I haven't even touched on the serious problems in the military situation and how large swathes of the country and indeed of Baghdad are not under the control of the central government.

No doubt you think I'm reveling in defeat. The military defeat of the US is absolutely nothing compared to the calamitous state of Iraq. In a country of 27 million people, over half a million have died as a result of the invasion and a further million have been turned into refugees. Translate that into a percentage of the US population (say 350 million) and you have fatalities of 8.4 million and almost 13 million refugees.

Yes, it's a completely different country, all right.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by rich23]

Reading that post again, it had other points that are so preposterous they really need a response.

Originally posted by MrMedic
You would have a completely different view if you really knew what Saddam had in for us. I remember seeing a mural in one of Saddam's palaces with a depiction of missiles being launched from Iraq and aimed at the US.

Missiles which he didn't have armed with warheads which he didn't have Are you suggesting that anywhere that has an aggressive mural should be invaded and destroyed?

Illegal war...? Prove it! I guess Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of Canada, Austrailia, Canada etc. should be tried for war crimes as well.

As for the legality or otherwise of the war, I think that mythatsabigprobe answered that entirely correctly. Certainly the attorney-general here had some difficulty deciding that the war was legal and had to be pressured by Blair to come to the politically expedient conclusion, which was required because the Army were extremely nervous about getting involved with something that looked, even then, like a war crime.

Speaking as a UK citizen, I'd be very happy to see Bliar in the dock for war crimes. That craven little creep has done severe damage to the UK by allowing it to be dragged into this appalling mess, and the blood of British servicemen (and arguably of many Iraqis) are on his hands, and I feel shame for what he has done to my country, and for our part in bringing chaos to Iraq.

Now that it appears that Rummy is tendering his resignation(assuming Bush accepts it), can WC now be brought against him?

by Rich23
I'm afraid, Mr. Medic, that it's your grasp on reality that is about as firm and strong as a baby's on a buttered anvil.

I can do without the personal attacks, thank you.


Why have over 300,000 Iraqis signed up to be a part of the military and security in Iraq. You guys make it sound like there is absolutely nothing good in Iraq. You have buried yourselves in the media bias and their ideology.

Security
During an interview on CNN, General Abizaid said that Iraqi troops are becoming more capable every day:

Iraqi security forces are becoming more capable every day, fighting and dying for their country because the future depends on them, U.S. Central Command's commander said this week.

"I come to the conclusion that Iraqis are fighting and dying for their country, that the government has pledged their sacred honor and their future to making this work," Army Gen. John Abizaid said in an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "Their lives are on the line."

Iraqi security forces now number more than 300,000, and almost 70 percent of Iraqi battalions have the lead for security in their area of control:


Six Iraqi army division headquarters, 26 brigade headquarters and 88 battalions have the lead in their own areas - almost 70 percent of the Iraqi Army, and an increase of five division headquarters, 22 brigade headquarters and 65 battalions since November 2005.

The goal is for Iraqis to have the lead in all areas by the end of 2006.

That is a serious amount of people who despite all odds they are willing to sacrifice their lives for something they beleive in. Here are some other small victories that actually happen every day.

The area is rich in archeological treasures, and tourists are now returning to the area, something they could not do under Saddam:


Dhi Qar province is an archeologist's dreamland. It contains the site of the ancient city of Ur, purported to be the hometown of the biblical figure Abraham. Near the ruins of the ancient city stands the Ziggurat of Ur, a towering ancient temple dating back more than 4,000 years.

Iraqis and tourists are now able to freely visit this area, something they could not do under the oppression of Saddam Hussein, said Maj. Gen. Kurt A. Cichowski, Deputy Chief of Staff, Strategy, Plans and Assessment, Multi-National Force - Iraq.

Operation Together Forward continues to improve the lives of Iraqis in Baghdad:

The combined military operations in the area include a variety of civil service projects, such as a large-scale trash cleanup, medical services, and establishing a generally close working relationship with local residents - all of which serve to deter further terrorist attacks.

"Many of the shops that were once closed have reopened, such as a butcher shop and a bakery," said Staff Sgt. John Davis, of Company A, 412th Civil Affairs Battalion, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, Multi-National Division - Baghdad. "Main roads in the neighborhood are starting to look and feel like a neighborhood again, and economic activity and employment have increased since the beginning of the operation."

The efforts to date are impressive:

As of Thursday, Iraqi Security Forces and MND-B cleared more than 55,500 buildings, 60 mosques and 50 muhallas, detained more than 90 terrorist suspects, seized more than 1,200 weapons, registered more than 780 weapons and found 33 weapons caches.

No one said it was going to be easy in Iraq. But having a constant pessimistic attitude will acheive nothing. It wasn't easy here in early America when we gained our independence either. I think you Brits need to remember the sacrifice America made for you in WWII. Germany never attacked us but we were right in there risking it all for you guys.

Mr Medic,

I am afraid I think you are mistaken. There are more than enough reports of how the Iraq security services are in bad shape. Google is our friend.

The thing is though - you were told it was going to be easy. "WElcomed as liberators"! Remember that? No one I know who was against this thing from the start thought it would be easy - heck it wasn't even needed. It was ILLEGAL!!

Say it with me now - The American involvment in the M.E is Illegal. The world knows it. The UN knows it, and it is only the good will the US has developed over the decades that pretty well made the world not beleive what it was seeing. Still today there are many, like yourself it appears, that can't clearly see what has happened.

.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
Now that it appears that Rummy is tendering his resignation(assuming Bush accepts it), can WC now be brought against him?

The ICC or any international court can try it but US and the world will not recognize it. In the US the law is clear, you cannot charge public officials for their record and decisions after they resign.

Also, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were approved by the US congress, they are 100% legal. Historically international bodies do not determine when and who the US declares war on.

by Waiting2awake

Say it with me now - The American involvment in the M.E is Illegal. The world knows it. The UN knows it, and it is only the good will the US has developed over the decades that pretty well made the world not beleive what it was seeing. Still today there are many, like yourself it appears, that can't clearly see what has happened.

So going into Afganistan after bin Laden was illegal. This defies logic. Maybe there are many like me because they don't agree with the likes of you.

We are still the first country to be called for help when something goes wrong in some other country. I think it's high time we stop giving all the aid we do when we get snubbed by countries who are in bed with our enemies.


Right on Westpoint...100% legal!


[edit on 11/8/2006 by MrMedic]

Originally posted by MrMedic

So going into Afganistan after bin Laden was illegal. This defies logic. Maybe there are many like me because they don't agree with the likes of you.

We are still the first country to be called for help when something goes wrong in some other country. I think it's high time we stop giving all the aid we do when we get snubbed by countries who are in bed with our enemies.

- Hey there MrMedic. Going into afganistan? For Bin Laden? If that was so important why not just keep the family of Bin Ladin while they were there on Bush's ranch? If killed your family members, and my family was at your place, would you let them go? Not enough proof for you? How about checking out this. Maybe this might show you exactly what your news doesn't want you to see..

Bush+Bin on Reddit

Some of the more interesting things...

Taliban offered to Bush bin Laden in Feb 2001

Bush scrapped hunting bin Laden in order to focus on Iraq War, 13 months prior to the invasion


Simply put - you(And westpoint, but most have given up on him ) have been lied to. You were given a boogy man to fear and you reacted, and are still reacting. There is no enemy threat to you guys. If Bin Ladin did it, and that is a fairly large if at this stage, Bush was in the position to get him - and he CHOSE not to. What does that alone tell you?

The world doesn't ask for you help anymore than a good neighbour does. Much like Canada and the UK, and AU, and endless countries give help. The thing is, sometimes it is only the military that has the equipment and tatical expertise to pull off large scale humanitarian issues - and when your military budget is in excess of almost everyone elses combined it just puts it more logically on the Americans. It also might have something with that whole "We are the best" mentality you keep propping up. So if you are the best, then help like the best. Without complaints.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
Now that it appears that Rummy is tendering his resignation(assuming Bush accepts it), can WC now be brought against him?

The ICC or any international court can try it but US and the world will not recognize it. In the US the law is clear, you cannot charge public officials for their record and decisions after they resign.

Also, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were approved by the US congress, they are 100% legal. Historically international bodies do not determine when and who the US declares war on.

Errr, you mean like signing international treaties? You are aware that the UN said it was Illegal right? So the world body, says it is illegal - it is illegal. You may be right that it will have to force you guys at the point of a gun before you grow up - but lets not confuse that with right and wrong. Grown ups, don't require being forced to do the right thing.

Maybe one day you'll learn. Or one day, you will be put into a position where you'll realize that might does not make right regardless.

It is illegal under international laws to invade a soverign nation that has not provoked you. The US did, and Iraq didn't - therefor it is illegal. Just ask the UN.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
You are aware that the UN said it was Illegal right? So the world body, says it is illegal - it is illegal.

Umm... I am an American, I put my congress and elected government over any unaccountable, biased, influential, and collective international body, they can say whatever they want until they're blue in the face as far as I'm concerned. Heck, they can even declare the sky is green for all I care.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
It is illegal under international laws to invade a soverign nation that has not provoked you. The US did, and Iraq didn't - therefor it is illegal. Just ask the UN.

We decide who poses a threat to us and what we need to do, France, Ghana or Zimbabwe do not.

I don't think it will ever come to fruition, but I would be 100% for it.

It amazes me how I can see some people complaining about how the UN doesn't do enough to assert it's own power, only from their next drawn breath to utter some nonsense about how they don't have to recognize them. So convenient it seems.

Jail 'em, I'll bring cupcakes to them for their birthdays every year.

Originally posted by niteboy82
It amazes me how I can see some people complaining about how the UN doesn't do enough to assert it's own power, only from their next drawn breath to utter some nonsense about how they don't have to recognize them. So convenient it seems.

The UN is ineffective, it should be dissolved if it does not reform. Where it needs to assert itself is with the security council, it should also be quicker to respond to world situations. The UN is a voluntary world body, it is NOT a world government, nor should it ever be one. They should only have authority over member states and it is up to each member states to choose which treaties and optional bodies within the US they want to join or accept.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
You are aware that the UN said it was Illegal right? So the world body, says it is illegal - it is illegal.

Umm... I am an American, I put my congress and elected government over any unaccountable, biased, influential, and collective international body, they can say whatever they want until they're blue in the face as far as I'm concerned. Heck, they can even declare the sky is green for all I care.

- I know you don't care. I also realize you don't understand. But that is OK, that is what the net is for. So people like you can be exposed to the lies you have been told. Your welcome.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
It is illegal under international laws to invade a soverign nation that has not provoked you. The US did, and Iraq didn't - therefor it is illegal. Just ask the UN.

We decide who poses a threat to us and what we need to do, France, Ghana or Zimbabwe do not.

- NO, YOU didn't decide. Nor did your soldiers decide. Nor did your military decide. Your oil grubbing moron pres decided. He is the decider after all isn't he? And those decision have cost your country 2500+ brave men and wemen who trusted YOU and their fellow Americans and their commander in cheif not to send them on suicide missions for no national interest. YOU and many Americans and the commander in cheif let them down. Whether you understand what that truly means I am not sure. But surfice to say that by the US's actions has made the entire world a lot more unsafe in general - and the average american a greater target.

BTW, here is a wiki I think you'll find something in comman with. Just saying.
Stockholm Syndrome