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Cobra Manuever and Aircraft that perform it

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posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 06:00 PM
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I'm finding it difficult to find information on the aircraft that have the capability of performing the Cobra Manuever.

From what I understand the aircraft has to be able to reach a minimum of 90 degrees angle of attack.

I know for certain that the Su-27 can do it, but any other aircraft?

Shattered OUT...




posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 06:13 PM
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Vehicles known to be able to make the cobra maneuver are the Su-27 (from horizontal flight), and MiG-29 (from a 30 degree up angle). Thrust vectoring aircraft (such as the F-22, F-15 ACTIVE, F-16 MATV, Sukhoi Su-30, MiG 1.42, Su-37, Su-47, and NASA's X-31 )



Found here: Cobra

Some vids: f-22

Su-30



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 06:26 PM
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Mig-29 can perform 'cobra', here is the link to the video

MiG-29 Performing Cobra



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 07:07 PM
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What about aircraft that don't have thrust vectoring?

I noticed most of those aircraft listed are testbeds and have TVC.

Is the original F-15, F-16, Rafael capable of the cobra as well?

Shattered OUT...



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 09:25 PM
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Shattered, you should caveat your question with "Which aircraft can perform the manoeuvre in an operational configuration?" Test and airshow aircraft would be removed from contention pretty quickly...



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 10:01 AM
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I don't have a difinitive answer for you, but if you dig into what is called Post-Stall Maneuvering, you should be able to find your answer. The secret of the Cobra is the fact that the SU-27 can manuver while it's technically in a stall.

Tim



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 10:24 AM
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Actually, the Su-27 cobra was a function of momentum of the nose in extreme pitch up and the wing and tailplane being placed well back of the cg, which induces a nose down pitching moment and returns the aircraft to controlable fight.


I would not call it post stall manouvering as the pilot is not in control of the aircraft.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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Seeker!!! This ones all yours....



The COBRA, great for airshows, useless in actual air combat.


Has there ever been a RL instance of a COBRA being pulled off in actual combat? Nope.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

The COBRA, great for airshows, useless in actual air combat.


Has there ever been a RL instance of a COBRA being pulled off in actual combat? Nope.


irrelevant ......

the fact that certain aircaft have the raw power and manouverability to actually preform COBRA , does give them an edge in dog fight manouvers ....

the best example from my limited experience is the Harrier Gr3 , and its ViFFing [ vector in forward flight ] manouver

no one ever AFAIF used or attempted to use the Harrier to hover as a combat manouver , but as the Argies found out - VIFFing allowed them to comprehensivly out manouver - and defeat [ 4:1 kills ratio ] aircraft that on paper were superior aircombat platforms .

so IMHO pilots who train to use the agility which makes cobra possible - will , in combat against aircraft that cannot - gain an advantage that could tip the scales of victory .



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by ignorant_ape
irrelevant ......

the fact that certain aircaft have the raw power and manouverability to actually preform COBRA , does give them an edge in dog fight manouvers ....


There's only one aircraft that I have seen perform a Cobra, Super Cobra, whatever you want to call it, with an actual combat load.

Also being maneuverable in general does help in a dog fight (should you find yourself in one that is) but not so much today (see JHMCS and HOB). The "Cobra" however is virtually useless though. You're kidding yourself if you think combat aircraft are going to be performing the kind of maneuvers you see at air shows and dodging missiles.


[edit on 6-11-2006 by WestPoint23]


JSR

posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 04:14 PM
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i have a silly question

is this the move that tom cruse did in the last part of Top Gun? when he said "ill just put the brakes on, and he'll fly by".

after watch the f-22 vid, it looks like it.

of course, i know nothing about dog-fights.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 04:42 PM
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The F 18 E/F can perform the maneuver as well, and I have witnessed it as well. Vectored thrust is not a requirement although it is far simpler with it.

As far as aircraft with an operational load.......whole different story!!!!

Many of todays madern fighter aircraft can do it but without the operational load, they would be no more than glorified airshow acrobatic aircraft, and damned expensive ones at that!!!


The "cobra" move is really not even really a necessary combat maneuver in most pilot's opinions. The mission envelope of todays aviators of fighter jets deals more with BVR than with WVR. A cool maneuver to see, but too many other things to consider an tasks to attend to than neat stunts.
Mon



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by Mondogiwa
The mission envelope of todays aviators of fighter jets deals more with BVR than with WVR. A cool maneuver to see, but too many other things to consider an tasks to attend to than neat stunts.


Yeah, there'll always be the argument that it'll be an advantage in combat, but that WVR range will only be used in rare situations. Some will say it's good in case you were stupid, others say it's totally unnecessary. Personally I lean to the "Good in case you were stupid" case, because it's unwise to put all your eggs in one BVR basket.

That being said any aircraft with TVC can do it, and there are a few without TVC that can (but it's usually not quite so impressive). Non-TVC'd cobras are short, quick maneuvers that are probably more useful in combat because you've still got a bit of your energy left and may be able to get a missile lock. The traditional TVC'd cobras are pretty well useless because they show off by basically halting in the air and hovering, which will result in you dieing in combat. Which is, in fact, generically considered a bad move.

The maneuver on Top Gun was the idea of a Cobra, but not quite as effective. The F-14's wings have much less surface area than that of a Su-27 or other aircraft that usually do it so the deceleration will be much less pronounced. That said it'll still work, it just may not decelerate you as much as you would normally desire in a combat situation. In that particular scenario the simulated MiG was close enough behind that the maneuver would have worked, but was a bad idea anyway.

'Nuff said.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 05:53 PM
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Whether it's useful or not in actual combat situations can be debated. But what it does show is the aircrafts maneuverability. A good way to sell an airplane at air shows.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by ignorant_ape
the fact that certain aircaft have the raw power and manouverability to actually preform COBRA , does give them an edge in dog fight manouvers ....

Umm, yes and no.
Question: How many active service pilots do the Russians have that are fully trained and tagged as being able to successfully perform the Cobra manouver, a Cobra manouver in a plane combat loaded, and then how many of them have actually successfully performed a Cobra manouver in an actual 'live' combat environment? When you answer that one, you will understand that though such a manouver may be in theory be sufficient to win an air-to-air engagement, in reality, the negatives inherent to/in performing such an 'in-combat' manouver will indicate/show why such training has not taken place on a large scale, in any air force. Try less than two or three dozen pilots, at most best estimates.




so IMHO pilots who train to use the agility which makes cobra possible - will , in combat against aircraft that cannot - gain an advantage that could tip the scales of victory .

In theory, as mentioned already above.
In reality, you are ignoring the drawbacks/negatives inherent to the aircraft performing such a manouver in a real world combat environment.

Advantage in air-to-air combat engagements will most assuredly, and in most cases, go to the aircraft that maintains momentum and has the ability to 'see' and attack before detection and counter-measures is/are made, not to an aircraft that can do the Cobra manouver or the like variations. Best be assured that in most cases, performing a Cobra manouver or the like will get the pilot killed and the aircraft destroyed/'splashed', despite the ongoing and continuous debate over the theoretical combat advantages of doing such a 'last ditch attempt to live and survive' manouver.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 06:48 PM
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SeekerOf, I may misunderstand, but I believe you might've misunderstood ignorant_ape's comment. I think what they were going for was that the maneuver requires an aircraft of such specifications that a plane capable of performing it would have an edge--not a plane performing it, just capable of performing it.

Like, I have a car capable of driving 180 mph without loosing traction in rain, that means it'd handle a bit better than a car that can only handle 120 on dry land. Whether I'd ever drive 180 in the rain is moot--I'd still be able to outperform the other car, one way or the other.

(I'm also posting this to make sure I interpreted it correctly--did I?)

Also, I'm a bit curious on some of the acronyms--BVR, WVR? I'm guessing that TVC = Thrust Vector Control, but I'm not 100% sure on that either....



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 07:25 PM
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Well here is a list of acronyms and what they mean.

WVR, Within Visual Range
BVR, Beyond Visual Range
TVC, you already got it.
HOB, High Off-Boresight
JHMCS is this piece of equipment.



posted on Nov, 6 2006 @ 11:06 PM
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I highly doubt this move is any useful in real combat, the entry conditions to this move is quite demanding-- staight fly in low speed, which is nearly a suicide thing in combat.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 02:54 AM
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Originally posted by spanishcaravan
Whether it's useful or not in actual combat situations can be debated. But what it does show is the aircrafts maneuverability. A good way to sell an airplane at air shows.



Nail on head.


The cobra demonstrates manouverabilty, a Su-27 is capable of manouvering in otherways besides a cobra, and you'd imagine it would be more capable than most aircraft that cannot perform the cobra.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by JSR
i have a silly question

is this the move that tom cruse did in the last part of Top Gun? when he said "ill just put the brakes on, and he'll fly by".


It's not silly at all! I was just thinking the same thing! If you watch it closely, Tom Cruise did a sharp pitch up to cut his speed and then dropped the nose quickly. Keep in mind that aerodynamic differences between aircraft mean that the same maneuver will look different depending on the aircraft.

Tim



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