The cut and run Democrats

Keep it civil, folks. Discuss the issues and not the personalities.

And for pete's sake, DOCUMENT your arguments WITH LINKS! It quells about half the sniping around here if you back your arguments up with something other than your own godlike opinions.

I cant wait till tommorow, and everything will be over for a while.

Originally posted by sleeper

Will have our troops fleeing from Iraq with their tails between their legs. The rest of the world will applaud that sign of weakness because it will prove that America is just like them, nothing but sheep.

How cn that be said about the democrats when we were persuaded to go to war in the first place. I can tell you it's bad because of what has been shown on networks like Rueters and CNN. What has been show on those networks shows that of a lawless country that we are wrongly stuck in and a war that we have no plan on how to wage it.

Marine Ordered to Execute Civilians

This just goes to show to what lengths most commanders in Iraq will go because they were basically unprepared to fight this war in the first place. The Iraqi people were never our enemies to begin with until stuff like this started to happen. Once it started, there was no turning back for the administration. That started and it was then the Iraqi people started taking up arms against us because we were the invaders not the liberators.

that’s why I call myself a moderate.

Making the claim that Democrats hate capitalism is NOT a moderate position -- it is extremist. At least you have now acknowledged that not all democrats hate capitalism -- it's a start I guess.

Sorry... I think there are a number of people both conservative and liberal who will agree with me on this point.

Show me a democrat who favors NAFTA, do you?

Most Democrats who have objections to NAFTA are mostly opposed because fair labor and environmental standards were left out of the agreement. It is not because they hate capitalism or despise free trade. Some advocate the alternative 'fair trade' as a solution that would level the playing field.

Anyway, there were pleanty of Democrats who supported and still support NAFTA.

The vote on NAFTA is most accurately characterized as bipartisan. Although more Republicans than Democrats supported NAFTA in both houses (102 Dems, 132 Reps in House; 27 Dems, 34 Reps in Senate), the numbers are reasonably close.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by zoopnfunk]

If the Demorats win both houses, the war will be funded and nothing will change in that regard.

Middle-income America prepare to taxed! Gun owners prepare to be assaulted.

Roper

Originally posted by Roper
If the Demorats win both houses, the war will be funded and nothing will change in that regard.

Middle-income America prepare to taxed! Gun owners prepare to be assaulted.

Please refer back to my post on page 1 of this thread in regards to your claim about taxes.

Could you please clarify exactly what you think will happen to gun owners if Democrats are elected? Links please.

I would like to see nothing more than a total landslide for Democrats- Just to go against Bush's grain.

As far as taxes, you're all so afraid to be taxed a little, but dont care about the Trillion deficit and the cost of the bogus war and Halleburton and others profiting bigtime?

I'd be happy to pay taxes.

Now, having said all this, i still believe that both parties have the same agenda- and nothing is going to change. I would just love to see this country turn like a snake and wake up to reason. In the end, it may not change anything, but one never knows.

Originally posted by dgtempe


As far as taxes, you're all so afraid to be taxed a little, but dont care about the Trillion deficit and the cost of the bogus war and Halleburton and others profiting bigtime?

You know why the Democrats are always so in the negative when it comes to taxes?

Because they always has to come back to fix the mess Republicans does on the deficit and the economy so they can come back again and make another mess with wars and spending.

Republicans tax cuts didn't help the dying middle class in this nation.

My husband and I have not seen anything yet when it comes to the tax cuts.

But I tell you who is benefiting from those taxes The rich and corporate America.

After all that is what the Republicans stand for.

The dems also hate or at least make lots of noise against things that make democracy possible, which is Capitalism.

If you are correct we would expect the markets to be running scared at the prospect of a democratic takeover this election. Instead, the opposite appears to be coming to fruition:

The Dow Jones industrial average rose 119.51 points, or 1 percent, to 12,105.55, snapping a losing streak that followed a record high on Oct. 26. Speculation that Democrats may take control of the House of Representatives and the Senate from Republicans in elections today aided the rebound.

And historically speaking?:

Since 1948, Republican Administrations have controlled the White House 57.2 percent of the time. But during the period that the GOP was in office, stock returns have averaged only 9.53 percent per year, while under Democratic administrations, stocks returned 15.25 percent per year, more than five percentage points higher.

Originally posted by zoopnfunk


If you are correct we would expect the markets to be running scared at the prospect of a democratic takeover this election. Instead, the opposite appears to be coming to fruition:

I know that the markets like democrats, there are more rich democrats than there are republicans, that’s confusing. The top tier of the Democratic Party stays afloat by keeping the fires of social divisions alive. A great strategy for power hungry democrats but a fools dream for those who vote for democrats.

It’s the little guy that votes for democrats and it’s the little guy that pays the price---there aren’t many rich republicans or democrats that live in the ring of hell of poverty and crime that surround many large cities.

And nearly every large city has been run by democrats for the last three decades.

there are more rich democrats than there are republicans

I'd like to see some evidence backing that claim up. Once again you seem to be injecting personal opinion without providing any sources to back up your claims. You would find me to be more forgiving if you could at least attribute your information to a source. I'm not even sure such a study has been conducted.

On a side not, Republican candidates sure don't seem to have any problems getting the lion's share of donations from major corporations... election cycle after election cycle Republicans accumulate more funds than Democrats.

www.opensecrets.org...

Either way, I think I have sufficiently laid to rest the notion that Democrats are somehow against capitalism or free markets.

UPDATE : I just found a study that contradicts your opinion:

Our results suggest that the popular journalistic image of rich latte-drinking Democrats and poor NASCAR Republicans is a gross oversimplification," Park says. "Income varies far more within states than average income does between states, and it is these with-in-state variances that explain national voting patterns."

The bottom line, the study suggests, is that little has changed in terms of income's general influence on individual voting patterns: in every presidential election since 1952, the richer a voter is, the more likely that voter is to vote Republican, regardless of ethnicity, sex, education or age.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by zoopnfunk]

I hear ya zoopnfunk, I wouldn't mind seeing stats on this too:

Originally posted by sleeper

And nearly every large city has been run by democrats for the last three decades.

Stop spreading your Rushisms...And open your conservative blinded eye's. The republicans and democrats ARE THE PROBLEM. And another party vote is the solution it's just as simple as that.

Originally posted by tsloan
Stop spreading your Rushisms...And open your conservative blinded eye's. The republicans and democrats ARE THE PROBLEM. And another party vote is the solution it's just as simple as that.

I have yet to listen to even one Rush program, I only know about that guy from liberals like you who keep bring him up.

So you don't like either party? Are you a communist? If so the communist are indorsing the democrats.

Originally posted by intrepid
I hear ya zoopnfunk, I wouldn't mind seeing stats on this too:

Here is a list of democrat mayors in the US today:


www.ncdm.org...

Feel free to do further leg work to determine that most major cities have been dominated by democrats. I have traveled plenty in the last three decades and I stayed at many large cities, and their mayors were democrats.

Originally posted by zoopnfunk

I'd like to see some evidence backing that claim up. Once again you seem to be injecting personal opinion without providing any sources to back up your claims. You would find me to be more forgiving if you could at least attribute your information to a source. I'm not even sure such a study has been conducted.

I have been involved in real estate, building houses, and every single supper rich developer was a Democrat. I have known lots of people and lots of rich people---all democrats. I have lost out on many deals because I couldn’t keep my mouth shut and I let it out that I was republican.

I read and keep up with economic and political news that is local and national, and from what I have gathered the dems easily out number the republicans when it comes to money and influence.

On a side not, Republican candidates sure don't seem to have any problems getting the lion's share of donations from major corporations... election cycle after election cycle Republicans accumulate more funds than Democrats.

True, many dems reach into their own deep pockets to fund their elections.

I have been involved in real estate, building houses, and every single supper rich developer was a Democrat. I have known lots of people and lots of rich people---all democrats. I have lost out on many deals because I couldn’t keep my mouth shut and I let it out that I was republican.

I read and keep up with economic and political news that is local and national, and from what I have gathered the dems easily out number the republicans when it comes to money and influence.

Again with the personal opinion/observation with no data to back your statements up. Maybe you didn't see the update I made to my post above that pretty much tears your hypothesis to shreds:

Please at least read this before replying again on this subject matter:

Our results suggest that the popular journalistic image of rich latte-drinking Democrats and poor NASCAR Republicans is a gross oversimplification," Park says. "Income varies far more within states than average income does between states, and it is these with-in-state variances that explain national voting patterns."

The bottom line, the study suggests, is that little has changed in terms of income's general influence on individual voting patterns: in every presidential election since 1952, the richer a voter is, the more likely that voter is to vote Republican, regardless of ethnicity, sex, education or age.

Let me re-state the conclusion... no matter what the other factors were involved one thing is clear -- the more personal wealth you have the more likely you are to vote republican.

This confirms the opposite of what you have been saying but not backing up with any verifiable evidence... I guess now, we know why.

Im sorry, but sleeper have you read anything zoopnfunk has wrote!!!!!??


Every single one of your arguments has been soundly defeated through logic and statistics.

Dems tax more >>> shot down in a lightning bolt post
Dems hate capitalism >>> wow that was quickly debunked
Dems are the rich >>> wow again, the study shot you down but I did like your little anecdote about all the rich people YOU meet are dems. very funny, but remember, they aren't facts because they came out your "experienced, educated" brain, they are still opinions (with very little substance).

i have read through this entire debate, I am a true moderate (no matter how many times ppl like sleeper try and steal the title) who believes in social reform and fiscal responsibility. And like someone said earlier, I vote for the man/woman not for any party line. Anyone who hits the ticket button needs to learn more about their candidates.

Someone tell this hack to stop buying whatever radio personality he is listening to is selling.

Originally posted by elaine
I'm sorry but those "fear tactics" aren't working so well anymore. I will vote for the person not the party.

I refuse to be categorized or fear-mongered to. Rational thought needs to take the lead now, not fear and propaganda.

I guess you wouldnt have been afraid to be standing at the top of the world trade center as it went down then. Begging to see your family one last time to whoever might hear you. Those pesky scare tactics tey used along side of the U.S.S. Cole. Or any other of the coutless terrorist attacks that have occured during the last 25 years or so. Pointless to even consider them.


Elaine, you are a coward. You are afraid to confront the reality of life.

Originally posted by sleeper

Originally posted by tsloan
Stop spreading your Rushisms...And open your conservative blinded eye's. The republicans and democrats ARE THE PROBLEM. And another party vote is the solution it's just as simple as that.

I have yet to listen to even one Rush program, I only know about that guy from liberals like you who keep bring him up.

So you don't like either party? Are you a communist? If so the communist are indorsing the democrats.

Liberals like me..... My,my,my, A communist?...Don't be angry cause I have called out a flawed political system with Republican and Democrats having the power. I know what the problem is. It's clear as day the people in power right NOW don't care about you...They don't care about protecting you from terrorist they don't care about giving you tax breaks.Nor do they care about you having a national health plan or keeping the peace by have a better Iraq policy...They care about keeping there power(i.e.the job you voted them into).Thats all they care about! And if you have bought the political bull!@#$#$ they have been selling you then thats your own fault. But it's all good cause the people who see through the lies are SLOWLY starting to gain seats at local levels and it might be 20 or 30 years from now but the Republican and Democratic party are on notice.