Theory about Heaven and Hell

Yes as a matter of fact it is

A great new autum morning springing into life with much drizzle coming my way.

as I post this its just passing 2am.


I must be nuts posting on here at this time of the morning.

Yes, indeed, you are crazy, Stewards! 0200hrs is only fit for snoozing!
I feel quite confident that both the Lord and Free Mason both forgive you. We all get a little overboard, and we all understand that.

I'm sure your information will be of great help in understanding your position and I'll be reading it soon. Not tonight, though, as I'm too tired to digest information any deeper than politics. If you think that American politics is deep, you'd better look again at our politicians!

LOL I finally found and read what Stewards posted at 4:34 pm my time

I'm afraid...that reincarnation is actually more reasonable than heaven//hell and non-existance after death is truly just corny and wrong.

I can reason with you why the latter is wrong, and I can give you insite as to why Reincarnation is possibly more "true" than is heaven//hell but only if you ask, I'm too lazy to write

Sincerely,
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Steward: Hmm... that's a flavor of Pentecostal I'm not familiar with. Which church are you affiliated with (this is mere curiosity)?

Freemason: Pagan? (g) I think I'm the only Pagan around right now -- certainly the only Wiccan. You might be a Deist, y'know, like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin.

No, when I stated pagan I was only referring to their extreme naturalism, at least when I think of pagans I picture the tree worshiping mountain climbing, holy forested peoples of old, not TOO sure if Wicca is still into all THAT, or just into the multiple gods thing.

I believe that all this order came from a god, I don't know though if you could break it down to multiple gods or what...I focus more on the soul, and what will happen to us...iregaurdless if there is a god or not...for my "celestial lodge" is just reincarnation...I can't believe there is ever a TRUE end to anything, which heaven would more or less be a true end.

And if you are a wicca...got any info for me?

Sincerely,
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Originally posted by blahblahblahMD had kind of the right idea.

Actually, it's *not* my idea...It's what my research has turned up when studying not only the *current* versions of the Bible, but the history behind it...It also involved the (The hardcore Fanatics are going to hate this next word) *evolution* of the scriptures themselves.

Even though I've learned a lot, the real question I ask myself is "How much of it do I truly *understand*?" Much of the newest generations of people *know* a lot but seem to *understand* little.

I'd like to think that Socrates would be proud of the way I try to reason as much as feel my way to the real truth...


[Edited on 9-11-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

Mr MD

People probabbly would call me a hardcore fanantic, but I for one will not hate you for suggesting that the bible has evolved. I actually somwhat agree with you. There are many translations and some of them completely miss the plot of what God was trying to say.

I believe it is only the work of Satan. I go according to the KJV, because I'm told this is the most accurate to the original scriptures that we have in the English language.

If anyone deos know of a more accurate version than the KJV, I WIll be pleased to know about it

Yes...the whole reason why the Constitution works is because we still have the original doccuments, we know the changes, therefore we have an educated interpretation of the Constitution...but when it comes to the bible, the original works were buried 4000 years ago, the original conceiver died 2000 years ago, the scriptures have been changed repeatedly up until about 1500s. And we have not even one shred of evidence to know what it all was SUPPOSED to mean, so we are left with ideals, but no direction, no educated interpretation.

Sincerely,
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If there's a heaven, why don't all these religious people kill themselves to be closer to god?

Personally, I don't believe in god, or any religion for that matter.... but, if it's all true, then I should have no fear of slicing my wrists 'knowing' that when I die I will be with god... right?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne Whoa! A pagan! The last Pagan friend I had, when he got married, he and his new bride's ceremony called for them to be painted blue and run naked through the woods.

Hmmm...Reminiscent of the Celts. Wait! When Celts ran around naked & painted blue, they were off to war! Did they do that for marriage too?

In the views of some people, war & marriage is pretty much the same thing...

Originally posted by JamesG
If there's a heaven, why don't all these religious people kill themselves to be closer to god?

Because of the Ten Commandments, specifically, "Thou shalt not kill" also includes the idea of killing yourself...By breaking the Law of God, they'd be headed for Hell instead of Heaven.


[Edited on 9-11-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

Can't they always repent there sins and get out of hell? Surley there must be a quicker way to god than this

JamesG, that's why they invented the notion that if you commit suicide you go to hell....so they wouldn't have all these mass suicides to get to heaven....the pope can't rule the world if all his subjects kill themselves

Sincerely,
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Steward states

Reincarnation = mere demonic fantasy.

Ok so what your saying is that the people who prepared the bible engaged in mere demonic fantasy? Reincarnation was a part of the belief then Steward. That it is not now may actually be the mere demonic Fantasy you are having.

Beyond that most religions in the world accept this philosophy, their is substantial evidence to supports its validity and as well those cultures have belief systems much older than Christianity.


What are your thoughts?

I think you hit the nail on the head...reincarnation is a very VERY plausible possibility...more so then an actuall "after life". Too many cases of past lives and the lure of rebirth, as so much dies, only to be born again.

I heard the greatest quote...."A living flower that is picked, dies, and a dead seed planted, lives".

Sincerely,
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I've heard of a theologist (I forgot his name or what faith he professes) who "disproves" reincarnation with this line of reasoning:

The Eastern religions believe in reincarnation due to the concept of Karma; However, recycling in new lives under that concept requires that the soul in the new life is repaying a "karmic debt".

However, since the new life rarely (if ever) remembers its *old* life, then how can the karmic debt be repaid if there's no awareness of what sins must be corrected? How can the karmic debt be repaid if the soul has no idea how to correct the karmic balance? Therefore, whatever diety that "karmists" worship really has no interest in balancing faith & justice.

However, since God has the afterlife (Heaven or Hell) that takes souls away from the realm of the living, there can be no reincarnation for Christian souls.

---Which, IMO, is the biggest load of claptrap BS I've ever heard in my life---

Then how could he explain that some people (Even Christians have been included) can remember past lives under hypnosis? What explains the presence of "ghosts" of people who once lived? Could one *posssiblity* be that not *all* souls (Even Christian ones, as noted above) reach the afterlife *immediately* after death of the body? That perhaps *some* "ghosts" continue to hang around as close to the living as they can, maybe to attempt possessing a newly-conceived infant before it has time to develop its own brain & mind? Could this also be why so few reincarnations have any conscious memory of previous lives?

Granted, I only state *possibilities*, but I also take more *documented* facts into account than some people do, such as that misguided theologist. If you want to duplicate my research, check out some keyword searches for Reincarnation or look around your local library. The documentation exists, however you'll probably be looking for quite a while before you can confirm my findings of "reincarnation of a Christian" cases because those *specific* circumstances are rare in comparison...Most of the rest of what I've theorized here can be found a bit easier than that.

Yes MD hear hear!

On top of that why doesn't he add that maybe life is about LEARNING about your past lives so you can in a sense repay that "karma debt"?

Although I don't actually believe in karma debt, if you have done something so wrong that your soul is scared with suffering, evil, and pain...then you aren't reborn to pay off that "karma debt" you are simply reabsorbed into that great conciousness...that collective soul we all sprung from that flows through all the universe.

Basically, you lose your individuality.

Sincerely,
no signature

Perhaps I should clarify one of my statements earlier: What I originally wrote was

---Which, IMO, is the biggest load of claptrap BS I've ever heard in my life---

, which *should've* been "...*one* of the biggest loads of *religious* claptrap BS..."




[Edited on 10-11-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

To be honest Strward your comment is an insult to those who actually prepared the Bible. For the record the sites attached do speak clearly as to why.
-----------------
Born Again or Reborn?
The Question of Reincarnation in Christianity


Reincarnation is a difficult question to answer. What is the role of rebirth
in the Christian doctrine or why is it absent? I wondered why that I, being
raised and a Christian, never learned about this possibility or alternative
way of thought.


The idea of rebirth is prevalent throughout out most of the world's religious mythologies. Birth and death are seen as a cycle, not linear events. This is shown in the stories of primordial images such as the Ouroboros (the serpent whose tail is in its mouth) and the Phoenix fire bird who rises from the ashes of its own funeral pyre. It is even alluded to in the Christian story of the
crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. (Coker)


Simply stated, reincarnation is the belief that the soul essence of each person continues after physical death and, based upon actions in previous lifetimes (karma), is returns in another physical vessel to further its evolution.

Today, the concept of reincarnation is believed by over half of the world's population, and even Christianity accepted it until 533 AD (Price)


Reincarnation is found in the ancient religion of the Jews. Evidence indicates that during the first centuries, Christianity did teach about both the preexistence of souls and their reimbodiment.

Jesus taught his disciples that every person being created by God received a portion of God's spirit (the soul), but to be truly free, they were also given free will. The task of the person is to perfect the soul and to become one with God again. (Bellringer) Originally, all beings existed as pure love energy on an ideational or thought level, or that were just a part of one pure energy entity.

According to Plato, among others, there then came a "fall," which is likewise illustrated in the story of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. Now, individual souls had to work toward reconciliation with or into the pure entity/God. The fall or disjointing was voluntary, and now the fragments must voluntarily learn lessons to regain their original state.

In understanding the history of reincarnation in Christianity, it is
important to be familiar with Origen (AD 185-254). He was an early Christian
theologian devoted to scriptural authority who became a martyr as a result of
critics attacking his writings.

Controversy over his tenets espousing
reincarnation and soul preexistence raged from AD 250 to 553. Before this
time, Constantine declared Christianity as state religion of the Roman empire.

Historically, this was a time of standardization and consolidation of
Christian "sects." Both religious and political factions were attempting to
force their own interpretations onto Christianity since it was becoming
widespread.

There were many provincial "wars" under weak emperors so that when Justinian took charge in 527, he had very serious problems.(Oderberg) He worked to reunify the empire by use of military power and enforcement of a uniform canon of belief that was to be adhered to strictly. Emperor Justinian composed a tract setting forth anthemas (curses) against Origen.


Finally, at the council of Niccea in AD 553, the doctrine of reincarnation
and preexistence of the soul were officially removed from the Christian
theology. All reference to reincarnation in public teaching disappeared by 543 AD on the grounds that it conflicted with the proper understanding of redemption. The reasons for the removal of this idea could include that it seems to have minimized Christian salvation, it is in conflict with the resurrection of the body, it creates and unnatural separation between body and
soul, it is built on a much too speculative use of the Christian scriptures, and there is no evidence of pr evious lives. It could also include the fact that the possibility of having a second or third or even additional chance at achieving a God/like state, took much power away from the church and especially the priests, cardinals, etc.

This is certainly a possibility during a time when it was common practice to pay the church money or real estate to expunge sins.


However, controversy still continues today. In most of the world's religions, death is seen as an event, not a total end. Most Christians reject the idea of reincarnation but traces of it can be found in the notion of physical resurrection. "It seems impossible to discover any clear-cut, unambiguous Christian doctrine to explain what happens after death--what is available does not contradict the idea of reincarnation. In fact, there are
Christian scriptures that are in essential harmony with the vision of man as a
reincarnating being. After all, it was a common enough belief in Jesus' time
and was understood by many of the people who influence Christian thinking
2,000 years ago." (Coker)


Scholars point to specific scriptures and say that these prove that Jesus
intended reincarnation and its various facets such as karma, to be taught and
accepted. Scripture tells us that those who live by the sword die by the
sword (Matt 26:52) and that we will reap what we sow (Gal 6:7). It does not
limit these paybacks or rewards to one life only. "Unto the place from when
the rivers come, thither they return again" (Eccl 1:7), and "Things that hath
been, it is that which shall be...and there is nothing new under the sun" (Eccl 1:9) Also, in John 3:13, it states that no man ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven. Here is an implication of the circle or the cycle.


According to Joseph Head and S. L. Cranston in Reincarnation; An East West
Anthology, ancient Jews were always expecting their great prophets to be
reincarnated. They thought that Moses was Abel, son of Adam, and that their
Messiah was to be the reincarnation of Adam himself who had already come a
second time as David. They also point out that in Matthew 16:13-4, Jesus asked his disciples, saying whom do men say that I, son of man, am? They replied some said that he was John the Baptist, some Elias and others Jeremias or one of the prophets.


One incident of Jesus' healing may be loosely interpreted to point to
reincarnation also. In John 9:1, the disciples ask Jesus why the man they
come upon is blind. What sin did his parents commit that he should be so
punished? Jesus replies that neither this man nor his parents had sinned, but
that the blindness was the work of God manifest in him. The disciples ask if
the man himself could have committed the sin that led to the blindness. Given
that the man was blind from birth, this presupposes some prenatal existence.
Jesus does not deny this possibility.


Another example pointed out by Head and Cranston, is that ST. John says in
Revelations 3:12; "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of
my God, and he shall go no more out." They state that evidently, he had gone
out into incarnation before and upon completing purification of spirit, he
will wander no more. Also, they sate that the Bible eludes that Jesus claimed
that the man now known as John the Baptist was the same man who centuries
earlier had been the prophet Elijah or Elias.


Reincarnation assumes that man is an immortal being. When Jesus spoke to
the Jews in the Temple of Jerusalem (John 10:34) he said, "Is it not written
in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (Coker) The prophet Jeremiah says God knew
him before he was born (Jer 1:5); Solomon, son of David, says that he existed before the earth or heavens (Prov 8:2 2-30) (Coker)


This subject is still so relevant today that books are on the bestsellers list that tackle this argument. Reincarnation-The Missing Link in Christianity by Elizabeth Claire Prophet, is one such example.


However, it is still up to the individual
to determine what role, if any, reincarnation may play in their daily lives or in their spiritual practices. It seems that the most prohibitive argument for most people against reincarnation, is that there is no clear memory of a past life or lives. However, even this argument is being challenged. In her recent book, Across Time and Death---A Mother's Search for Her Past Life Children, Jenny Cockell explores and investigates strange coincidences and memories that seem to prove she was reborn as a woman who died 21 years before her birth. Certainly,
Tibetan Monks use the firm belief of recalled past lives when choosing a new
Dali Llama. They put forth rigorous tests to anyone so thought to be the
latest incarnation of their spiritual masters.


"One can't really prove (or disprove) reincarnation---we aren't going to
catch ourselves reincarnating any more than our waking consciousness can quite
catch or sleeping consciousness." (Coker) However, many believe that memory
is more than that stored among the cells of the brain---skills, or facility to
do or understand certain areas of thought or activity, often evident in early
childhood, surely betoken a resumption from a past familiarity." (Oderberg)
It may be impossible to understand the "spiritual mechanism" of reincarnation. However, if an individual does believe that the spirit essence or soul, does continue after physical death, reincarnation presents one possible explanation of what happens to this part of our consciousness.


For the Christian, it is perhaps left to the religious doctrine put forth by the individual faith or even denomination. Many Unitarians believe in reincarnation and still call themselves Christian. In some Catholic parishes, reincarnation is either accepted as a fact or allowed as a possibility. However, more fundamentalist believers may consider this heresy.


In conclusion, it appears that the idea of reincarnation is being addressed more often today, even in the Christian faith. A thorough examination of why it was originally removed from the doctrine may help determine whether it was a mistake to remove it, or a mistake to have included it in the first place. A Patrick Bellringer states in his article "People of
the Lie: Reincarnation," we must ponder this carefully.



SOURCES CITED IN THIS ESSAY


Bellringer, Patrick, "People of the Lie: Reincarnation", The Phoenix Journal.


Coker, Nancy, "Born Again and Again and Again: Reincarnation in
Christianity," Sunrise Magazine.


Graham, David, The Practical Side of Reincarnation.


Head, Joseph & Cranston, S.L., Reincarnation: An East West Anthology.


Oderberg, L.M., "Reincarnation as Taught by Early Christians", Sunrise
Magazine


Price, James M. "Transpersonal Psychology: The Evidence for Reincarnation,"
The Society
*******************

have included several other sites for you review Steward.


What are your thougts????

www.reluctant-messenger.com...

www.angelink.com...

www.mantra-meditation.com...

www.at57.com...

www.near-death.com...

www.comparativereligion.com...

a1.nu...

www.nazirene.org...


www.comparativereligion.com...

www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk...



[Edited on 10-11-2002 by Toltec]

All religion is BS, still, all religion hold's a thread of truth... Not one religious doctorine 'know's' the truth of our origins.
Alot of, if not most doctirine is contradictory to history itself. To me, this makes it completly impossible to look at it all as truth. Some biblical facts have been found, yet many more than that are historicly innacurate, yet some are even complete rip-offs of older cultures religous beliefs. The flood account of the bible is a complete rework of the Epic of Gilgamesh and others similar to it...

The whole one god belief may be an old religion, but only started after polythiesm. Personally, I think religion was an early form of governmant. It's much easier to control an entire population through fear than it is by giving them free will to do as they please...

Despite the fact the religious people say they don't fear god, the truth is that they do. They follow god's word's in FEAR of being sent to hell by god...

There is also no logic in the way god created everything... He has all this power all this foresight in how things will turn out... So why create the people that would lead to people like me who find him nothing short of BS? This is excactley what he DOESN'T want, yet here I am and millions upon millions of more like me... Unless he doesn't have as much power as claimed, he is BS...

The whole creation story itself doesn't even fit with OBSERVED facts...

blah,blah,blah....

Originally posted by JamesGSo why create the people that would lead to people like me who find him nothing short of BS?

The sword that's tempered has stronger metal...

God is strengthening your soul & your faith. God knows that we cannot choose to be Good if we don't see what Evil is & be capable of making a comparison. You can't have a coin with only One Side. This is why He allows His Adversary to continue existing & influencing people...He wants us to know what the difference is so we can make the choice.