This is all very fascinating. There are really some very brilliant minds in here. And I am not being sarcastic.

Here are my thoughts. Christ said to His apostles, "spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have." That is why Christ's body is a perfect immortal physical body. He even asked them to touch and feel the marks in His hands and feet. To say that His body is just spirit, does not make sense to me.
Also if heaven is this "place" where all the good Christians go, then that is not merciful. Think of the millions of innocent, SINLESS, children that are born in the world and then die, without ever knowing Christ or the Gospel. Is it merciful for God to condemn them to hell if they never had a chance to know His Son? Did not Christ say "suffer the little children, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Was He lying? I don't think so. I think that the whole notion of the Heaven as some people believe today is a really bad misinterpretation. Yes Paul did say that in the resurrection of the dead(and he didn't say just Christians, 1 Corinthians 15) that there are Celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies. Each differing in glory. Like The Sun differs from the Moon, and the Moon differs from the Stars. And as John said everyone that has died will be resurrected. In other words ALL people, good, bad, ugly, beautiful, will be resurrected. Then they will be judged according to there works that are written in the book of life.

As for Hell, I think that there is another misinterpretation. MD had kind of the right idea. Hell is a place designated for those who have followed Satan or who have know the WHOLE truth and then turned it away and then try to convince people that this truth is wrong, but they will get the chance to choose between God and Satan.
Hell is the LAST place God wants us to be. That is one thing I don't agree with, is that God is this overbearing, willing to place everyone in Hell, God. The whole "everyone who doesn't believe in Christ, goes directly to Hell" is nothing more than a fear tactic used by most religions to convince you of their "right"interpretation. And that goes back to the children who die ideaology. To say that God does not save the little innocent children, His children, to me is a blasphemy. Maybe in reality the whole "heaven and hell" thing is a centuries old bad interpretation, now doctrine of most of the protestant churches who when they say they believe in Jesus, believe that He is a three in one person or a scizophrenic God, without body and form, when in fact, and a simple fact He is a Living God, and is the Son of God, and is separate in nature to His Father, and still has His body of Flesh and Bone, though different from us because it is immortal and perfect.
Those are my thoughts for now.

I should point out that very few religions actually have a concept of heaven and hell. For MOST religions, everyone ends up in the afterlife.

Yeah you gotta go somewhere. For the non christians there is only one place to go .... hell ... hence the lack of an option

Its only becase of Jesus that people have a chance to go to heaven....

r>

The problems with discussions like this is that people don't define their terms. Hell is not all brimstone and fire... It has differing levels from an empty grey (Sheol) place to black and nasty ... to hell with torment...

Where you go to in hell depends on your good deeds and the credits you have built up on earth.

Within hell are sub areas that give the illusion of the differing religious 'heavens' so the Islamisic go to 'hell' but don't realise it. etc...

So what is hell FOR?

Its a holding place for people before the last judgement... unfortunatly no matter where you are in hell the last judgement means that you will die... becasue the only people who live are written in the book of Life ie: the christians.

r>

I know 90% of you will roll your eyes and splutter "but I don't believe that crap" so be it.

But the knowledge of Heaven and hell COMES FROM THE BIBLE ... so you can create your own hell, and what you THINK its like ... but it only exists in your head, if you want to study it you have to read what the bible says....

I can create my own version of New York and what is like, but it doesn't mean a damn thing to people who have been there or read about it .... my version is my illusion nothing more..

So blahblahblah's babbling nonsence above (BTW appropriate nick) is nothing more than a pipe dream, it holds no reality whatsoever.

Things are not true just because you WANT to believe they are true...

If you want the reality then you have to read the original source material and start from there, if you don't believe the source material then you have no basis for what you say...

[Edited on 8-11-2002 by Netchicken]

I bielive that heavan and hell are 4th dimensional and thas why we can't see the place. Also heaven and hell are here with us on this earth . we have adapted to them we don't even know that there there. Like we have adapted to bacteria and they have adapte to us. and since there 4th dimensinal we can't even comprehend them. but they can comprehend us.

That's a pretty stupid statement Kigga since they already know what the 4th, 5th and even 6th dimensions are...the 4th especially, TIME...

Plus...just because something is another dimension doesn't mean we aren't effected by it...that's like saying because gravity is invisible it doesn't exist....if heaven and hell were the 4th dimension we'd still have DRASTIC effects upon us by such an existance....ALSO!

Heaven and Hell are BOTH 3rd dimensional, physical space ends at the 3rd dimension...you, even your soul, exists in the 3rd dimension in a physical form, it just is not detectable because it IS everything around us....it IS existance.

Sincerely,
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Oh well I do suppose all this could stem from we really DON'T know...and it's all theory or false? I should correct myself to say that I feel science has shown that if there were any higher "plane" like heaven or hell, it wouldn't be a dimensional thing.

In fact it very well could be a "higher" plane, after all our universe is on a "plane" so maybe there's more then one infinately expanding and such...that could be a heaven or hell.

Sincerely,
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Straight and narrow is the path that leads to heaven, but wide is the path that leads to hell. In other words, Its very easy to go to hell. Yet to get to heaven the life of one must be very specific,
Hell, the bible says has opened up her mouth wide because many will go there.

This body, because of the fall of man has become corruptible. The bible says that nothing incorruptible can enter the kingdom of God. This not only includes our body, but our very character. No matter where we go our body will not follow, but our character will.

As well as there being different levels of hell, there is also different levels in heaven

1 New Earth.
2 New Heaven
3 New heaven (mingled with fire) This is not literal fire but it has a spiritual meaning.
4 New jerusalem ( kingdom of God)
5 Zion ( God's Throne)

Death, is what the world believes to be, that our body's die. But the real meaning of death and what it is, is that it means eternal separation from God. Which is Hell.


Mr Midnight Dstroyer.

I would like to know where you got that nonsense about people who go to hell are there for a temporarily time only?.
There is no such teaching. The bible speaks quite the opposite.

Well stewards are you jewish??? Because that's a profoundly jewish belief and any claim to it being christian is utterly wrong.

Not that I care, I don't believe in hell, nor a heaven, I love life, and the universe, good ol' reincarnation for me.

Besides it's more reasonable

Sincerely,
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That be a strange yarn you weave there, Stewards. Whar might ye be gettin' these idears about Heaven? Might ye be a JW? Never heard a Baptist speak of such things!

I am fond of the Jews, but I am not actually Jewish.

If you say that what i've posted is not christian, then you dont know christ from buddha.

Reincarnation = mere demonic fantasy.

Thankyou for your time Mr Freemason

Hey mabye he's a mason too?! We got plenty of Baptist masons Been causing a bit of ruckus though, not many South Baptist Pastors like their deacons being masons

Sincerely,
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No, we gotta problem with that whole secret organization thing. No where a Christian should be. Got no problems with the rank and file Masons; some of the most trustworthy and stalwart men I've known were ring-knockers.

As for you, Mr. Steward, I highly suggest you not try and say that I or anyone else doesn't know Christ from Budha. A real Christian would shudder before judging in such manner. My question was simply your divisions of heaven. Books, chapters and verses would be very helpful if you would. Thanks.

Hmm so you are a baptist TC? Wouldn't have guessed, but then determining someone's religious veiw points are not my strongest points...

Don't get too hung up on the handle, I've gotten into some seriously rough scraps with S.B. preachers and deacons over doctrinal views. Specifically, I have a problem with man-made doctrine. That crap turns alot of people off, and in my li'l ol' opinion, is going to cause people to reject the gift and burn in Hell. Make no mistake, those responsible for the man-made doctrines that trip people up will answer to an extremely P.O.'d God one day. I thin kthat'sd why God has me as a S.B.; to be a pain in the arse for the doctrinal folk.

God loves you and sent His Son to die for you. Accept Him and God'll deal with the rest later, as a loving father wanting the best for His child.

Such a gloomy existance....what happend to all the Trees and birds and bears?

And the weather...woo, there's spirituality in it's best incarnation....mountains and weather...with a big forest!

I think I can be described as a pagan

Oh well....not much too life but living, and easing suffering...if not stopping it all together. At least...not much to my life but living...blah blah...heh.

Sincerely,
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Whoa! A pagan! The last Pagan friend I had, when he got married, he and his new bride's ceremony called for them to be painted blue and run naked through the woods.
While she was one that would not have hurt the eyes one bit to be viewed naked, I'm afraid my friend was as offensive as me!

No, there's no gloom in being a Christian. Well, there's ot supposed to be. Some seem to enjoy picking up a little gloom alon the way, but to each his own. Personally, I get a kick out of every day and am darned glad to be here!

Heh I'm not THAT kind of a pagan, although I read a very little about Wiccan and it seemed kinda interesting, even their beliefs don't match mine....which are floating on these chat boards somewhere...what with the existing and individualism and all that good stuff....Fate...most of all fate, but it doesn't go THAT far...heh...as to call for painting yourself blue...hmm got any wedding photos?

Sincerely,
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Thankyou Mr TC

No I am not a JW or even a Baptist. I am a Penticostal.

I will Gladly explain What the Bible says about the different levels of heaven, as well as the positions of the saints.

Firstly do you remember in the book of revelations when saint John spoke about going up to the third heaven. This therefore suggests that there is more than one heaven.

THE TABERNACLE OF GOD.

Paul says that the mosaic tabernacle is only a type of heaven, which is called the true tabernacle, which the lord pitched, and not man (heb 8:2). The Earthly tabernacle of moses had three places, namely, the outer court, the holy place and the most holy place. These three places correspond with the New Earth, the NEW Heaven and the New Jerusalem respectively. All these three heavenly places constitute the heavenly tabernacle which ' the lord pitched and not man'. After Jesus resurrection, he entered into the third place as a minister of the snctuary' (heb 8:2). It is where he is enthroned as our high priest, ' on the right hand of the majesty in the heavens' (heb 8:1).

The New Earth will be the habitation of the saved who do not have any further spiritual experiences like water baptism, baptism of the holy spirit, sanctification etc (rev 21:4). The New Heaven will be the abode of the conscience period saints, the law period saints (rev. 11:18,19), the general martyrs of all dispensations and the tribulation martyrs. (rev. 7:14,15). The New Heaven is Identified by the presence of the temple (rev.11:19). The overcomers Of the church, called the bride of christ, will inherit New Jerusalem, which Christ has gone to prepare (Jn 14:2). John says he saw no visible temple there.

THE DISPENSATIONS.

From the fall of Adam to the period of the New testament, we find three clear periods or dispensations

1 The dispensation of Conscience
2 The dispensation of Law
3 The dispensation of Grace


1 The dispensation of Conscience.

This is the period from Adam to the giving of the Law through Moses, when man had no law to judge him but the law of conscience. Paul says, 'For when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another' (Rom. 2:14,15).


2 The dispensation of the Law

This is the period from the giving of the Law through Moses to the day of Penticost. The highest standard of righteousness of man during this period was the standard of the law. The saints of the law period are evidently greater than the conscience period saints because God gave them the law to discipline their lives so that they might become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Ex. 19:6).


3 The dispensation Of Grace.

This is the period from the day of penticost to the coming of the lord Jesus Christ. It is also called the dispensation (or the period) of the church. The saints of the dispensation of Grace are very much greater than the conscience period and the law period saints because -

1 They are redeemed by a better sacrifice, not that of bulls and goats which could not take away sin, nor purge their conscience, but by the blood of Jesus (heb. 10:1-4, 10,14).

2 They have a better priesthood. In the old testament, the levitical priesthood could not bring anyone to perfection under Aaron; but the believers of the New Teatament are called to perfection through christ, Who has a continual ministry after the order of melchisedec (Heb. 7:11)


3 The old testament saints could not live an overcoming life, because Satan, who is the author of sin and death, was not destroyed. But Jesus, having destroyed satan at calvary, has become the author of eternal salvation to the saints of the New Testament (Heb.2:14,15; Col.2:15 Heb. 5:9). These are a few of the reasons why the saints of the dispensation of Grace are greater than the saints of former dispensations. Jesus himself said that those who belong to his kingdom are greater than all who were before him ( conscience period and Law period saints) (Matt 11:11).




I hope you found this helpful Mr TC

You say they are "graced" by a better sacrifice than bulls blah blah. Actually it seems they ARE THEIR sacrifice. When god comes and kills everyone to take them to heaven.

Most unfair.....!!!

Sincerely,
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Mr TC.

Concerning what you said at 12:44 on the 9/11/02. You are absolutely right. I was wrong to have put that on here.

I ask Mr freemason and the lord for their forgiveness.

[Edited on 9-11-2002 by stewards]

9-11? what is it tomorrow in England already?