Just Let 'Em Go?

In our society today, not having a high school diploma is basically a death sentence when it comes to job prospectives. So students who years ago would of been out in the work force, are forced to remain in school.

The areas I am looking to bring up here are:

Is it in the best interest of everyone to allow students to move on at an earlier stage? If someone is looking to take a trade, should we just allow them to take it?

Is the educational experienced too prolonged?

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The first point were looking at here are students who don't want to be in school. Young men who are aware that they want to drive rigs across the country, or work in a body shop on cars. Why do we force them to read Shakespeare? Algebra? To remind them that they just don't cut it? That people who do get this are truly better than them?

I believe it is in everyones best interest to allow these students to move on. The students simply rebel rather than conform. Serious efforts are required on the part of the educators to deal with these issues, and other students suffer from this. So, the student doesn't want to be there. The teacher doesn't want them there, and the other students would be better off without them being in school. Seems logical.

Having a look at school shootings.

The violence we see in our school systems today was unheard of years ago. Why? I propose its because some of the kids who are committing these crimes, would of been long gone. Some will point the finger and say we can not turn our backs on them. But are we turning our backs on them? I think were simply pointing them in the right direction. Rather than wasting their time, we are harnessing their skills and putting their focus on skills they will use in day to day life.

I propose we just let 'em go.

Is our educational system to spread out?

A teacher I had in my grade 12 year was adamant that we were in school for too long. He taught English to Grade 12's and he openly said, "What the hell am I going to teach you this year, that you don't already know?" It's a good question. I'm sitting on the fence on this issue though, I do feel it is stretched out a little too much but I feel kids are forced to make major decisions at a young age already.

Freshman entering high school are being told to pick their courses accordingly as it will effect them for the rest of their lives. Excuse me for a moment, , Thank you. This added pressure is completely unnecessary and needs to be alleviated.

Chissler, fact is,that without a degree from a trade school or college, one can't hardly make it today. Trade schools are recommended for those who want to jump out into the job market within a year or two. While trade schools are just as good and in many respects than colleges, colleges hold more clout.

I have been to both. I was a student at Sam Houston State University for about three years and am currently at a trade school. I have to say that unless one can compartmentalize information well, a university is not for him or her. He/she is better off going to a trade school where they can specialize in a certain field of study. I was one that is able to compartmentalize information, but,alas, due to some problems in my personal life,I had to put my college aside. Therefore,I am going to a trade school so I can get a quick start to a career. At my age, I can't see struggling through a probable 2 1/2 years of university life.

[edit on 2-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 2-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

in the nearer future the school will be removed i mean th school lessons will be just COMPUTER LESSONS

The entire way from young childhood, all throughout my high school career I was set on being a mechanic. I had classes in the trade, and secured a job in a well known reputable shop during my sophmore year. I tried my very best to convince my mother to let me stop school and try to further my potential career. She would absolutely not let me do it. I was really upset and bitter about it, as I thought that obviously I didn't do well in school (always got A's on my papers or tests, but I simply refused to go to school or do any homework) and thought that it was a waste of everyones time for me to be there. I did the least amount of work possible and passed all my classes, graduated, and got my diploma. To be honest, I'm incredibly happy I did.

I guess the whole point of my post is that people at this age, may think they know what they want to do with their future, drive big rigs, fix cars, whatever....but these ideas are very very likely to change, and then that person is stuck later in life with no training other than that one trade, and no high school diploma to fall back on. Not to mention the fact that it's hard to find any decent legal job without at least a high school diploma or the GED equivilant.

my 2 cents.


P.S. chissler, I always love reading your threads

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Chissler, fact is,that without a degree from a trade school or college, one can't hardly make it today.

Oh I know. Well aware of that, am not disputing it in the least. But if a man is not cut out for University and is sole purpose is to fix cars, Why make him read Romeo & Juliette? Why does he have to read The Great Gatsby? My inclination is that we should spend more time having these children focused towards an area that interests them. Something that is going to harness their abilities.

Forcing a child to read this material, who has absolutely no intention of using it, is only detrimental to everyone involved. He isn't going to do the work, so he fails the course. Carries a stigma since he failing academically, which carries over to all aspects of his life. Rebels since he sees the educators as the enemy, so now the system itself is strained since they have to deal with these children that don't want to be there in the first place.

I've graduated high school, completed three years of a degree and still felt like I was wasting my time. What was I doing? My intention was to become a teacher, but I felt everything I was doing was a complete waste of time. I've left my Bachelors program for the time being and I am currently pursuing a diploma from a private institute to work with troubled youth. My goal now is to counsel children in our justice system and try to turn their lives around by empowering them.

For the first time in my life I feel like I am studying something with actual substance. I can relate to the material and I fully understand that everything I put into my studies, I'm going to get back. It's a good feeling.

Originally Posted by YoBrandonRaps
I guess the whole point of my post is that people at this age, may think they know what they want to do with their future, drive big rigs, fix cars, whatever....but these ideas are very very likely to change, and then that person is stuck later in life with no training other than that one trade, and no high school diploma to fall back on.

I agree 100%. Children at a young age aren't sure what they want to do with their life. But we brain wash them from an early age that by 15 or 16 they have to know what they want to do with their life, and they better start working to it as early as possible.

Its nothing but a big load. It's never too late to turn back. I feel my message is sounding like I am condoning dropping out of high school. It's not, in our system today one can not drop out. You must complete it to attain any sort of employment.

I just believe that our trade schools should take a second look at the individual before we turn them down since they do not have a high school diploma. I am sure we all can name several people in our lives that are not book smart but are brilliant when it comes to something else.

--

Another point that I do not want to get lost in the shuffle is this. Does anyone agree with the inclination that school violence maybe correlated with the fact these children are staying in school longer? Years ago when kids simply moved onto the work force, schools were safe. Coincidence or is there something here?

I view it as evolution, it was not necessary in the past because people were not as advanced in the past. People can say what they want about intelligence not being affected by education, however I deeply believe that without education, societal forward progress is completely impossible. Who knows, I have a degree from an accredited university and have been unemployed for 5 months since graduation haha.

As for the people who don't believe that they "need to be in school any more," I call them lazy and ignorant.

Originally posted by Baphomet79

As for the people who don't believe that they "need to be in school any more," I call them lazy and ignorant.

Or they could very well feel that it is completely useless for them to be there...

It would be like someone calling you lazy and ignorant for feeling you no longer need to attend a school where you learn about how to fix rocket engines. It has nothing to do with what you may want to do in your future,and could be taking away time from you learning and getting ahead in what it is you feel you should be doing. Someone is more than entitled to feel there is no reason to be somewhere they don't feel they could succeed without being lazy and ignorant.

Originally posted by ChisslerAnother point that I do not want to get lost in the shuffle is this. Does anyone agree with the inclination that school violence maybe correlated with the fact these children are staying in school longer? Years ago when kids simply moved onto the work force, schools were safe. Coincidence or is there something here?

It could certainly attribute to the school violence. Someone who may not be good with academics and no longer wants to be in the school system may be bullied or made to feel they aren't good enough. This could make them angry and lash out at the people who teased them.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
I view it as evolution, it was not necessary in the past because people were not as advanced in the past.

Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? These guys were pretty advanced.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
People can say what they want about intelligence not being affected by education, however I deeply believe that without education, societal forward progress is completely impossible.

I agree completely. I'm not talking about stopping the educational process. I'm talking about removing the deviant children who don't want to learn Shakespeare. Insert them into a system where they can learn hands on and focus on their skills. Then the educators can focus their attention on the minds who want to learn about history, philosophy, mathematics, etc. It's not for everyone, as a society we need to understand that.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
Who knows, I have a degree from an accredited university and have been unemployed for 5 months since graduation haha.

I know plenty of people in the same boat. You've worked your ass off to attain a degree that doesn't carry a job. While others who scraped by years ago have taken a trade and are making decent money in a manual labor job.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
As for the people who don't believe that they "need to be in school any more," I call them lazy and ignorant.

Lazy and Ignorant?

Someone who wishes to put down the novel and learn how to fix cars is lazy? They are ignorant? I hope you know how to change your break pads next time they get a little thin. It's not lazy and ignorant, its just not for them.

I left university. Am I lazy and ignorant?

Originally posted by YoBrandonRaps
It could certainly attribute to the school violence. Someone who may not be good with academics and no longer wants to be in the school system may be bullied or made to feel they aren't good enough. This could make them angry and lash out at the people who teased them.

I would think more often these children are the bullies. Stereotype I know. Its the feeling of inadequacy that concerns me. These children should not have to feel like this, and often it is more than them who suffer.

[edit on 2-11-2006 by chissler]

Yes they were extremely advanced, however I am talking about intellectual evolution on a general basis not simply having a few extremely brilliant minds.

I know it is not for everyone, yet I feel everyone benefits from such studies. If not for the simple fact that society benfits in general from the studies of the arts over generations.

I respect there commitment to providing for their families. I am not chiding them, I am approaching it from a general stand-point for the betterment of society and subsequent generations.

I also regret using the terms lazy and ignorant, I did not mean it like that, my apologies. (And yes I do know how to change my break pads thanks to my grandfather haha.)

Regarding Brandon's post and your response. I don't think that a school system such as a Montessori school system is necessary. Why in the world is school violence such a recent occurence? I do not agree that it is a feeling of inadequacy, because I'm sure no one through their primary years at one time or another does not feel inadequate. TV, Video Games, more violent society in general? Where does it come from....

Originally posted by Baphomet79
I know it is not for everyone, yet I feel everyone benefits from such studies. If not for the simple fact that society benfits in general from the studies of the arts over generations.

Certainly everyone benefits. These minds are improving our society every generation. But some are going to make these strides while others are along for the ride. We need people to create a better environment for everyone, we need people to fix our cars, we need janitors. We all share the benefits, but not everyone is able to do the work.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
I respect there commitment to providing for their families. I am not chiding them, I am approaching it from a general stand-point for the betterment of society and subsequent generations.

Again I agree, but I don't think everyone has to make the strides to better society. Some people are doing their part by doing the little job that nobody notices.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
I also regret using the terms lazy and ignorant, I did not mean it like that, my apologies.

I assumed so. It didn't fit with your post, thats why I pointed it out. Thank you for the clarification.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
I do not agree that it is a feeling of inadequacy, because I'm sure no one through their primary years at one time or another does not feel inadequate.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make an assumption. (I hate assumptions) You excel at most things you do. Correct me if I am wrong. Whenever I made an effort in class I normally did fairly well. If I didn't, it was due to my own effort.

Students who can't fit in, are pushed to learn the material but truly can not comprehend the message, it is inevitable to feel inadequate. Everyone around them are working while they scratch their head.

If someone makes an effort and fails, inadequacy is sure to follow.

No I would only consider myself a fairly successful person, nothing out of the ordinary, although I hate failing at anything more than anyone you've ever met (an example is the current ATS game.) Failure does not mean inadequacy although. You are right it depends on you're area of study. My best friend from the age of 12 who flunked out of Texas A&M (a difficult think to do) is now at the top of his class as USAF Airman First Class, at the Defense Language Institute for Korean language.

In my opinion it is not whether they fail or succeed, it is that they put forth the effort which reveals their true character.

Several years ago I taught computer classes at the local community college. One of my students was only 16 years old. She was bored with school and decided to take the GED test between her Sophmore and Junior years. She aced the GED and the College's placement exam. She enrolled in the Microbiology program and after completeing it went to Penn State. While others in her High School class were graduating she was starting Penn State with about 1-1/2 years of cedits. Our schools are setup to move at the pace of the slowest student. While I believe in giving everyone all of the help and assistance that they may need I have to ask if it is fair to keep 20 students at a specific level while waiting for 4 or 5 to catch up?

Originally posted by Baphomet79


In my opinion it is not whether they fail or succeed, it is that they put forth the effort which reveals their true character.

I agree fully, so don't get me wrong here..but I don't think that too many high school aged kids have that mature a point of view.

In a society where it is constantly drilled into a young persons head that you can't really live a successful life without a degree of sorts it's inevitable that the kids who honestly just can't do it....or have no desire to will have certain feelings of inadequacy, which could very likely turn into violent behavior.

Back in the day everyone was told that they could be anything they wanted, and it didn't matter how you got there as long as it was honest, and you worked hard to do it. It wasn't a huge deal if you were a mechanic, or a janitor, because gawshdanrnit you were an american and part of this great country. Now it seems that if you're a kid who feels that they want to do something like fix cars, or drive a mack truck it is looked down on...like it's shameful in some way. When in the great scheme of things, they could be just as successful and play just as vital a role in society as you or I.

I work a comfy job in an office making great money, with nothing more than a high school diploma and a whole lot of real world experience, while a few kids who I went to high school with and went on to go to expensive colleges, and graduated high up in their class are doing nothing more than living in the same old town working at the local grocery store living off their parents.

Sorry if I got off topic, or ranted.... I'm trying to write this and answer phone calls and work on a few of my accounts all at the same time.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
Our schools are setup to move at the pace of the slowest student. While I believe in giving everyone all of the help and assistance that they may need I have to ask if it is fair to keep 20 students at a specific level while waiting for 4 or 5 to catch up?

There we have it. This is the best point made in this thread so far.

We are all about inclusiveness in our education system. Every child has a right to an education, which is certainly a good thing. But ones education should never be a detriment to another's.

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So when it comes to school violence? For the most part I am seeing that members do not agree with my inclination that children who normally would of dropped out are the contributing factor. We blame television, movies, video games, etc., but that is all hypothetical in my opinion. This aspect is concrete. It is a valid statement that these children and their sense of inadequacy would normally be in the work force rather than reading Shakespeare. They would be surrounded by grown men rather than puberty stricken children in their classes who excel, while they fail.

Well, I'm a drop-out, so I'll weigh in. I was always more interested in girls and games and outside reading than in my homework, and while I'm a very bright guy (technically speaking, I'm smarter than 99.9% of people on the planet, or at least that's what they told me - top 1/10th of 1 percentile.), I was easily bored at school.

I left high school, and tested into college. I thought it would be different.

It was, a little.

In college, they give you more rope with which to hang yourself.

The same problems exist in higher education, namely the lowest common denominator approach that ignores the gifted in favor of the challenged.

So, I agree wholeheartedly with the statements made in the opening post. The reality is that most citizens will never need academic knowledge in their livelyhood of choice, be it mechanical or service-related or manual labor, whatever. Even if they did need it, the current approach to education is based on regurgitation, not absorbtion. That's why, if you notice, most college classes re-visit high school material in the opening weeks, for the benefit of those students who have forgotten everything they 'learned' in the four years preceding freedom.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the future scholars, writers, philosophers, mathemeticians, and so on, present themselves fairly early. They all have natural ability combined with passion, interest - the most important ingredient in success. Here's the only problem I see...

If a child is never exposed to something, if they're never made aware of its existence, how can they fall in love with it?

The only reason I am such an avid reader is because my mother read to me CONSTANTLY when I was a child. Most kids aren't so lucky. They have parents who care just enough to microwave fishsticks and not break out the whuppin' belt on a nightly basis. Parents in America spend a few minutes a day talking to their kid, compared to the several hours a day that the kid is being talked to by the television. Who has the bigger influence?

Fix that, and you're well on the way to fixing the problem with kids. Of course, nobody can teach a thing if they don't know it themselves, so in order for America's parents to teach their kids the importance of erudition, they have to learn it themselves.

To some extent the school system is in a position to make up for the shortcomings of mediocre parents. They get the kids for an extended period of time every day, and they have the resources to bring in ideas that would never surface at home. (Dad's a construction worker, mom's a seamstress, how often do conversations about literature crop up at the dinner table?)

There's already a huge gap in erudition in this country between the rich and the poor. Doing away with public schools would all but eliminate upward intellectual mobility. That would not be a good thing. If you could expose ALL the average and reasonably smart kids to a wide range of concepts and vocations early, you could at least plant seeds that might later, in the right circumstances, grow into something.

However, we could probably safely do away with all the equality crap, and start focusing more on the students who have something to gain from staying in school. The public schools shouldn't be a taxpayer-subsidized kid-prison.

Why spend tons of money to 'educate' individuals who are choosing a different path, or who have had a different path thrust upon them by circumstance?

If you can support the lower 50%, do so, but not at the expense of the others. That's just nonsensical. Most schools probably spend more on one special-needs student annually than they do on an entire class of honor roll students.

That doesn't make sense to me, from a practical standpoint we should be investing in the gifted students to insure the future of the country, indeed, the future of the world. It doesn't take 12 years of schooling to learn how to lay sod or flip burgers, but it does take that and more to compete on the world stage, intellectually.

Just my thoughts on a very interesting topic. Kudos to chissler for posting this.

Originally posted by chissler
Why do we force them to read Shakespeare? Algebra?

As much as I hate math....it does make for better problem solving skills and reading literature really opens the mind I guess, makes an all around better person.

To remind them that they just don't cut it? That people who do get this are truly better than them?

No, teens need to be offered an oppurtunity to learn, wether they wany it or not. When I was 16 I wanted to be construction worker, seriously, the pay is good and it's something I can do. However, at 18 I took a different path that lead me to where I am today, doing something totally different from construction. And now, I'm glad I read shakespeare, took algebra, etc...

MOST people change their career goals in high school, so if they drop out and not take classes like algebra and read literature, when it comes time to decide what they really want to do....they'll be SOL and have very limited paths of where to go in life and what jobs to take.

If someone is 100% sure of what they want to do, then go ahead and do whatever. But in high school, everyone thinks they're 100% sure about everything....let's not set them up for failure and limit their choices when they do decide what is best for them....not what they think is best at the time.


On the other end, there's only so much some people do, no matter how much help and attention they get.....Imo, you have to just stop trying on people like that give more attention to the ones who want it.

[edit on 4/11/2006 by SportyMB]

[edit on 4/11/2006 by SportyMB]

WyrdeOne you contradict yourself a bit (despite how much I like 99 percent of your posts.)

In my opinion, if kids are not exposed to such topics how can they learn if they are interested in pursuing them to begin with? 9/11 happened my senior year of High School, I immediately wanted to go into the Army more than anything on this earth. I had ONE teacher who peeked an interest in me for Current Events. I now have a degree in International Affairs/ Conflict and Security. If you notice my posts I still want to be in the Army but for a myriad of reasons am not yet.

Exposing people at a young age to ALL subjects, whether they find themselves interested or not at the time, can yield very beneficial results.

Indeed, I did contradict myself a bit. That's because I have somewhat contradictory feelings on the subject. I think it's very important to question beliefs, even my own (especially my own).

On the one hand I'm bitter and frustrated, seeing a bunch of below-average kids getting all the attention, having the entire system geared towards them. On the other hand, I see the potential for raising people up and out of their lot in life, and showing them things they would ordinarily have no exposure to, if it were left up to their parents.

Exposing people at a young age to ALL subjects, whether they find themselves interested or not at the time, can yield very beneficial results.

I agree, absolutely.

I think the real question, then, becomes no whether or not to expose kids to a bunch of information, but how best to go about it. Wouldn't you agree?

The current model of education seems to fall far short of the goal of broadening horizons and instilling a love of learning.

Really, the parents are the ones with all the power to shape their child's future. They can teach so much in the years before school even starts. Most of them waste that time, and the kids are entering school at a stage barely past infancy. Their bodies are growning up, but their minds have been neglected.

I see kids all the time, questioning their parents, bright-eyed, enthused about discovering the world, constantly wanting to learn new things. What do the parents do? They ignore their kids, or worse, tell them to sit down and be quiet. It makes my heart hurt when I see it, because it's tantamount to hamstringing the kid for no reason other than sheer laziness and selfishness.

Really, if parents did their job, would we even need a public school system like the one we have?

Here's to a good discussion. Thanks for contributing.

Okay, what if we went to the European system of schooling? Let people graduate high skool at a younger age, then go to trade skool or university?

Or, how's about a wider variety of classes? That's the one thing that I love about college -- so, I hafta take a history course. But I have my choice...

Likewise, offer a wide variety of 'job' classes.. a semester for mechanics, for architecture, for welding, for electronics.. whatever. That way they get a chance to get away from the standard stuff and do stuff with their hands that isn't art class..

Or, offer independant studies for those who are bored with the standard cirriculum. Get them the heck out of the classroom... Maybe, we should just let the kids loose in a library and see where they wander so we may offer classes that may help them...

Or give them outside-of-skool credit. Wanna be a mechanic? Then go apprentice for a semester and write a report about what you learned...


The other point that, frankly, I've just figured out for myself (I'm a senior in college) -- no matter what you have to study, it's a fact of learning the ability to put yourself into the process of completing it. (It's a very hard, but necessary, lesson in a culture of immediate gratification...) We can't always have classes or subjects that we like, so scraping by with the bare minimum does not teach anything. However, learning to put everything you've got (or can) into any given class or assignment -- *that* is a valuable lesson!!! (If nothing else because this carries through into the workforce -- surely we won't like every single aspect of a job. Doesn't mean that we aren't responsible for making sure it gets done to the best of our abilities...)

Getting an education and making it useful requires a certain level of maturity.. and frankly, it's taken me 6 years (after graduating high skool, mind you) to figure that out.

Likewise, I don't see that allowing children to leave the education system will make them, overall, better. Maybe if we make the classrooms smaller, group people together (all the lowest common denominators, et cetera) and allow them to help each other. No need for competition in education -- that's not the point!

Social interaction... *that* is what public education has become about. Not the education, but learning how to interact with each other. But that's not even a class... I learned everything about social interaction from my parents -- what use was high skool? (beyond learning the wonders of shock value, and that I don't like most people who are my age. *laughs*)
Social interaction is, I think, where the skool shootings come into play. Being an outcaste while being told that you're abnormal for not fitting in. (But, in the meantime, work to keep those grades up Billy... surely that'll win you some friends! HA!) That is likely to drive a person insane...

I don't see the problem of skool shootings as suddenly being solved by allowing the troubled/bored students to leave -- they did not (obviously) learn the correct way to deal with stress, so the problem is just moved to the workforce.



I agree that parents are a vital part of the education process. However, they are not the end all be all. If a child can learn from someone else, what difference does it really make -- so long as they are learning! A neighbor, a teacher, a grandparent... There's lots of different educations to be had by different people..
(This is not said to negate the trend of lazy parenting... I agree that it's a trend that needs to be stopped, hamstringed even! But, the point is that kids are not totally reliant on their parents. I was lucky to have parents that, while not knowledgeable, had encyclopedias and took me to the library. But, I'm sure my neighbor would have done the same thing...)

[edit on 4-11-2006 by Diseria]

I have voted chissler for the Way Above Top Secret award

chissler, this is a really good thread and at this particular time very important. The posts all present good points and it is difficult to say "one" way only would solve the problems.

I have been upset by the recent posts for and against supporting Kerry's goof (or not goof) about kids not doing their homework ending up in Iraq. This thread points out many arguments why university is not for everyone.

Why couldn't someone who is intelligent also want to be a mechanic. Or even due to circumstances in real life work in the service sector? Perhaps even enjoy the work. We need all of these people for our social welfare and health. If all were doctors or lawyers who would keep the society running and the toilets flushing?

My son is in the Army and I can assure he is pretty smart. He did not like school and ended up graduating from high school in his junior year. It was the only way he thought he could get out of school fast. He had wanted to be a soldier for most of his life. He had read most of the books available about the second world war. He did enjoy reading to learn about what he wanted to know.

But, of course, there is the downside of that too. Too young to get a serious job and he had left his school friends behind at this point. We had the money saved for his college, but he did not want to go.

He does enjoy the education pertaining to his MOS that he is getting in the Army. And Golly gee, he might yet end up in Iraq. Funny that though, he feels that his duty is to support his military buddies in the service of America. I'm very proud of him.