Continued

posting crap from 2002 that has no base or has already been debunked really is irrelevant especially

I am not sure what your problem with history is but i still vividly remember what i did in 2002 and it was no illusion as you suggest history to be. If you can not or will not address source material i provide just admit that you don't know what your involved in as denial will not help you or your fellow Americans at all.

rom some biased ignorant soviet doctor.

try discover what her name and credentials is and make sure that she did not in fact predict 9-11 to within three weeks of it taking place. I think she is educated and well enough placed to be taken seriously as seemed evidence by her prediction of events and her advice that Russians should get rid of their dollar holdings which was good advice considering the dollar devaluation of 60% over the last five years.

the fact you immediatly called me ignorant because I challenged your position

Your position is not defensible and you are not really defending it with data i can contest so that leads me to believe that you are ignorant as only a ignorant person insists that he is right without having any history ( on that particular forum or with that group of people) suggesting that he normally deals with reliable information. I have in the past established ( on this forum) that i am willing to discuss what i believe in the most technical terms that i know how to employ while keeping what i think is a open mind as i don't think that my belief that i am right proves that i am right in any credible way. If you will not do the same this is not the forum for you and i suggest places where opinion and general perception of consensus opinion is good enough.

I thus challenged you because your position was weak and you were not doing anything to reinforce it by employing the information a informed party might have long ago resorted to had they the knowledge of the matter they chose to engage others on.

tells me you dont have the mental fortitude to even engage

Mental fortitude is something only the very very well informed requires as ignorance puts absolutely no strain on the metal processes. I suspect that you will discover over the next few weeks that it's not mental fortitude that i lack but the good sense to avoid engaging the arrogantly ignorant in sustained discussion.

in an intellectual debate

There is absolutely nothing intellectual about what we are engaging in currently as no amount of intellectual prowess i might employ could make up for the vapid commentary i am responding to.

without having to attack and insult people as u so constantly display,

As i said before i sometimes resort to calling people what they are and even thought i feel bad about it it's a rare thing for it not to be justified by quite a wide margin of patience and general grace. I am in fact quite sporting when it comes to my dealings with the type of abuse you consider intellectual discourse and i do not enjoy the fact that you do not even appreciate the miles of rope i have so far given you.

googling up bias sources

Google is as effective as the questions you put to it and no amount of googling with bad questions or the wrong mindset will help you to understand this world any better than you think you already do. My source may very well be biased , and i consider bias impossible to avoid, but you have no business repeatedly suggesting so without coming up with material that supports your views so that i might have chance to inspect that material for bias.

and taking someone elses paragraphs and rewriting them without doing proper research and taking it as gospel is the epitomy of ignorance.

Which is why your actions on the Hannity forums is so disgusting, childish and blatantly illegal. I should probably report what you did with copyrighted ATS material to the ATS managers so you can be kicked from this site and prosecuted ( does that even happen?) but i am a patient guy who don't particularly like the things that are sometimes done under the protection of copyright laws. The fact that you are so willing to make these accusations full well knowing your illegal activities related to ATS content on the Internet strikes me as quite stupid and dull witted in general and i suggest a less agressive ( to say nothing of legal) way of conducting yourself in generally polite discussion.

I do not 'rewrite' material on ats without giving proper credit ( as prescribed by ATS rules any ways ) and i take nothing i read or say as gospel as three years ago i would not easily believed what i do now. The difference between you and me is not that what we disagree about but that you really believe you are right while i am doing my best to discuss these matters so flaws might be discovered by the critical ATS members. I am not here to defend what i believe but to see if what i currently believe can be defended in the most basic of ways.

what in the hell gives u so much experience from south africa?

Just the fact that the my country previous regime oppressed the massive majority of it's people so that a few million of one specific grouping could live like Californians ( and they did) while the rest suffered. In the US the group that benefits are much much larger but it comes at the expense of hundreds of millions if not billions so if one looks there are more similarities than might meet the ignorant eye. Beside that i don't see how my experiences here can determine , or exclude me in any way, what i know about your country or the world independent of what i wish to discover about it.

dont insult me or my country from your little corner of the earth on that devestated continent unless

I will insult you or the current united states government ( that stole two elections; not that the other candidate would have been allowed to do things differently imo) as much as it is deserved and you have no right to demand my silence. As i have repeatedly said what i am trying to do here is to HELP as every economic and strategic problem American faces has the habit of becoming the worlds hence my involvement on this forum on this particular subject matter.

Continued

you got something intellectual to post that has substance instead of biased opinion,

I don't bother with intellectualism when relying on good widely supported ( if not widely known) information as provided by regular media or government channels.

especially prison planet. you basically call me and every other american an ignorant piece of garbage when you think we would just roll over and get conquered by our government, keep dreaming buddy.

Well then stop laying down taking so much punishment or standing up but blaming on people who had no part in creating the problem? If you can not accept the factual content matter of prison planet and infowars you are ignorant of reality and while you may not be a piece of garbage that's the way your government has treated the tens of thousands of American your government has so far maimed or killed by illegally invading and occupying Iraq. Your government does not care about your best wishes and you are considered nothing buy part of the machinery for keeping what little power they have. I am not your 'buddy' btw.

i dont know how things are ran in south africa but in america we are not dominated and tossed around by our government,

Sadly that happens in most countries ( including South-Africa) and consideration of the reality of
the more than seven million American citizens in the so called 'justice' system should tell you that American's are living in a virtual police state with higher incarceration rates than any other nation i am aware of. That is all happening despite the fact that the crime rates in America are not substantially higher than in any comparable Industrialized nation so one wonders what the motive is for locking up so many of it's own citizens.

here in america it's a wonderfull place to live and if you think otherwise then you have no experience in my country and just completly misinformed, sure my country has some flaws, those flaws can be fixed by the american people.

America were a better place to live in the 1960's ( as compared to other industrialized nations) and that position has been steadily declining so your are speaking from ignorance having no real grasp of history of the country you supposedly love and want to save.

and if you want to attempt to engage in debate with me then you will be wasting your time,

Debating you would not be possible as you are not interested having your ideas tested. It would, as you so accurate sum up , be a waste of my time.

im talking to someone who does not live and see the domestic situation in my country and who relys on bias internet sources

Why do you claim the sources are biased when they are produced by main stream economist or otherwise supposedly credible media organizations? Is the entire world media ( including American broadcasters) engaged in some kind of conspiracy to only tell lies about America and are these lies best discovered by noticing the fact that they contradict what you believe so very often?

so I would not expect you to be accurate at all as you have displayed here and on a few other threads. saying europe is a better place to live?? take a good look at france and germany then come again.

They are 'better ' ( broad brush but in terms of living standards i think that is accurate) places to live and that is not seriously disputed by anyone last i checked. Why do you insist that America is such a great place while you work the longest hours in the industrialized world but being able to buy ever less with the same hard earned money?

if you dont mind me asking what ethnicity are you? me im italian and english, I understand south africa has been subject to western interests and rape so im starting to see where the bias comes from.

I knew the race thing would eventually come up as this kind of thinking tends to appeal to people with your limited knowledge of most subject matters that deals with objective reality. I am a 27 year old Caucasian male and very happy to be one of the beneficiaries of all the pillage and raping that people of my general ( "white" people)'ethnicity' has visited on the world at large. I am sure that sinks a large part of the fleet of straw boats you have been constructing and it serves you right for assuming that my motives were as base and generally childish as your own.

could this also be another reason for the anger?

As i said i have mostly ( it would probably not be a stretch to say always) benefited, by proxy at least, from the murderous and genocidal policies of my Caucasion ancestors. You can drop this line of reasoning as it only exposes your base sentiments and the general absence of intellectual content ( to say nothing of the absence of factual information) in your reasoning.

i suggest putting your energy into solving the current domestic issues your country faces rather then exaughsting all of your hatred on my country,

America has done nothing to me and supported the former oppressive government that ruled this country and from which i have by extension benefited immensely ( the 'white' government fell by 1994 at which time i had just started high school) due to the one sided policies that enriched a few at the expense of others. As you can see you would have a better argument in accusing me of being ungrateful than accusing me of hatred for a power that has on the whole acted in my base economic interest with all the inherent advantages that can be established from that great foundation. South Africa has great issues to solve but those can only be effectively resolved without outside interference and it is for that reason that i want Americans to focus on reigning in their militaristic government and changing it so that it might solve it's own actions which it has so far only increased by foreign interventions against the general interest of American citizens.

focus it towards the better instead of the reverse, I dont think it was americans who settled there all those centuries ago and caused massive genocide on that continent and continued voilenceuch a large crime rate for a small country.

it must be nice living in cape town.

Cape Town has become one of the leading tourist destinations ( like one of the top five cities in the world i believe) in the world so it is a nice place to live even if i did not live in Cape Town proper.

In conclusion you would be well advised to never assume that you can guess at my intents or motives as you are by no means qualified or educated to attempt such when you have such difficulties investigating mundane facts as they can be established from resorting to nothing more than main stream sources. It is not the sources that you rely on that results in a illusive reality but the ideas you are not willing to consider or questions you are not willing to have answered.

I suggest you reconsider your current approach as your intimidation and general insults wont discourage me from attempting to inform the ignorance that pervades your every loudly proclaimed sentiment.

Stellar

Originally posted by win 52
This was about China. If you want to know....China will never take over the World. They will come close, though. I have sat with Ralph Cline and other Government people from China and Canada. I have had private meetings with Chinese Officials.

The greed, which is running rampant in the USA, will be what causes their Dollar to loose value. When the world looses faith in the USD, they will sell off in such large volumes that it will bankrupt the Country.

I am a US National, living in Canada. This is a warning to people. There is nothing that can be done to change what has already started.

My only hope for us is that something new will come allong. The world will not end, just the way things are run will be done differently.

I am calling BS.

Less than 20% of our debt is held by foriegn governments. Selling it off would not crash the economy - and we do have the ability to buy up the debt should the need arise.

StellarX,

You are posting opinions - I have yet to see a credible source that backs up your claim.

Hell - not even the EU nor China itself are on par with what you say.

wow how ignorant is it for someone from south africa to tell me the american citizen has no control of his/her destiny, hahah totally ignoring our history as a nation, yeah right complete ignorance. dont even begin to debate fair tax from your little corner in cape town south africa. I love how you tell me your trying to help americans when all you do is spread misinformation, im trying to help my OWN COUNTRYMEN AND WOMEN by advocating fair tax, something you obviously dont know jack about, so please save the crap about how nothing can be done. this is what I would expect from someone who lies for soviet russia.


stellar what a uneducated response, you have zero class buddy, who the hell are you to tell a married man who has a family and who invests in my country and prospers that im a disgrace and that im ignorant and you know more about my own country than I do? that is the epitomy of ignorance, you would be doing me a favor by not associating yourself with me as it only makes me look bad. and then you go on to blame south africas problems on the US, wow.

I made it very clear that one of the links i provided about alex jones was from another outrageous opinion , I also provided other links aswell that were more credible.

you dont know the first thing about my country, you are prolly some unemployed broke south african who is just mad at the entire world, i suggest educating yourself away non biased sources telling me alex jones is good for me and my country, well how in the hell did you come to this conclusion? maybe it's because you and alex jones operate in the same way by ignoring fact and common sense? alex jones is a joke and every considers him a joke here in america, capitalism 101 which what he feeds and lives off of take a look at all of his promotions and the money he wants from you. get a clue man if you think my government staged 9/11 well then I think you need an education, I have already caught you in this thread manipulating history and creating your own version of it, you should be labled as a misinformant.

way to totally dodge how it was pointed out you twisted up and manipulated history creatring your own version of it, thats expected because you never adress when you get caught in a lie.





[edit on 31-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 31-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 31-12-2006 by ape]

ok your saying that the american citizen can actually change what the government does, when Bush was planning the invasion of iraq, many people in the US took the issue to the streets with demonstrations, etc. but that didn't change anything. now people are moaning and groaning all over the place about the war in iraq, but the government doesn't budge. the american public has so far in the 21st century have not affected any government decision, all government decisions have been done in favor of the corporations and internationals and in favor of globalization, and of course in consistency with this massive chess game between the US and Russia, and maybe only recently added, china.

over 70% of the american people were for this war and that dwindled as the years went on after the initial invasion, congress allowed us to go into this war, the protesters dont make up for the majority of this country, this is how a democracy works. take a good look at recent us elections, the dems played the iraq and deficit card and look where they are now, they control the house and the senate, so what exactly am I missing here? we cant just hold elections everytime we get pissed off at our leaders, once every 2 and 4 years my friend.

yes americans control this country, if an elected official refuses to go along with the american people then that person will not get reelected, now we all know how politicians love their seats so they usually will go along with it if they want to stay in power.

every politican represents the power of the people who elected him/her, we have the power to take it away aswell this isnt soviet russia or china.

by stellarX
Russian technology that took apart the German army with American and British technology barely making progress on their small stretch of the European front lines?

^^HAHAH^^ I laugh at how you flamed the living hell out of the last 2 pages to divert away from this stellar, you have been exposed, an education would have prevented this statement.



[edit on 1-1-2007 by ape]

Originally posted by crisko
StellarX,

You are posting opinions -

I have said many things and while some are opinions they are still based on data as garnered from the same old media,intelligence, government sources as everyone else uses. If you can point out specific instances i can provide you with all the specific resources i employed towards forming that opinion as i don't just believe what i want independent of what i can prove by good old fashioned methods.

I have yet to see a credible source that backs up your claim.

Which claim(s)? I can assure you that all the things i have said about the American economic and strategic situations comes from American intelligence and defense documents as i have said in the past. Please be more precise as the vague attacks on me is not something a person interested in discovering reality would indulge in.

Hell - not even the EU nor China itself are on par with what you say.

Not sure what you intended to say here but i don't think you managed it.

Stellar

what he is saying is you have a very vivid imagination and you alter actual fact to suit your own personal opinion and bias.

control of congress, CONTROL OF CONGRESS, that's BS, they only won by 1 person or so right, and you need 75% or so to get a major or act passed, so what now your gonna have to turn have the republican senate to your side. anyway another thing, if Americans can truly contorl what there government does, then there would be no 9 trillion dollar debt, no war in iraq, and no dumb aggressive policy like the one the US engages in right now, and non of the other BS that your government does to countries around the world. Congress and the US government are all very well controlled by the large internationals and large corporations, (ie: oil, defense, etc.). there is no noticeable resemblance of the people in today's congress. your countryl was built on freedom, true, bu tell me now how can you have freedom when the president can declare any person in the world an enemy of the state and ahve them imprisoned, etc.?? what kind of democracy gives such power to a single person!?? i'll answer that: NONE, only facist gov's and dictatorships!!!

and what happens when a democrat gets elected into office for the presidency along with a democratic senate and house? eventually bushs policies would be eliminated as it is a prime objective for the democrats, but you see fair tax is non partisan and both side agree with this including independants. if you had read every aspect of the research done and who endorses it you will notice it constantly is growing, no tax replacement proposal has ever had this much backing and it's because of the grassroots that built it.

yes we are in power of this country, if the democrats actually do good then they will retain control and a dem will be elected pres which means all of bushs policies are out the door including the patriot act. why in the hell do you think the dems are in power? they played the deficit card along with the iraq card and some democrats in certain districts got republican votes along with independant and they took complete control of the house and barley the senate with the liberman factor. although im not so sure now with this other guy who fell sick it could change the power in the senate.

this is a primne example of the power of the people, the party that retained power for so long got the boot because they issued tax cuts while spending like dogs with bas fiscal responsibility which only added to the deficit along with giving people overseas who hold massive amounts of our currency a form of leverage over us making us weaker. we have gone from checks and balances to borrowing and spending which is complete BS, iraq is also another major factor people dont like it at all one bit and the GOP got the BOOT.

if the majority of dems dont play the fairtax card and if they ignore the momentum it's picking up the GOP will captialise on it and regain control, or better yet the libertarians !!

[edit on 2-1-2007 by ape]

China is the next world war. The US and China leadership is planning a war to wipe out 80% of the worlds population.

THe bottom the US can be self reliant. It doesn't need China. Imagine if China didn't exist, the coporations would return to the US, thus, creating more jobs and a better economy. The only reason y most US coporations are working over there and 3rd world countries is because it's cheaper.

Regarding the oil issue, there are technologies to eliminate the use for dependency. The only reason why we are still consuming oil is because the greedy ass coporations. Ever heard of free energy. You can convert h2o into hho gas, but the coporations don't profit from free energy.

Plus most countries have a lot of money invest in the US. Why would they want to set themselves up by dropping the dollar. I can understand for China to drop it because they don't have much money invest in the US, but that doesn't go for Japan, Taiwan, EU, and Middle eastern countries. You just can't sell all your investment especially real estate, it doesn't work that way. Most of the infastructure and commerical real estate in the US are owned by foreign countries.

The US economy is just too strong to callaspe so easily. Not to mention all the money the goverment is illigally profiting around the globe, such as drug traficating. It is estimated the the CIA brings in about 500 billion dollars yearly from drug traficating that's more than oil profits around the globe.

Originally posted by amfirst
THe bottom the US can be self reliant. It doesn't need China. Imagine if China didn't exist, the coporations would return to the US, thus, creating more jobs and a better economy.

Or.. the corporations would go to a different country... like India?

Regarding the oil issue, there are technologies to eliminate the use for dependency. The only reason why we are still consuming oil is because the greedy ass coporations. Ever heard of free energy. You can convert h2o into hho gas, but the coporations don't profit from free energy.

That's quite a statement. Any proof?

Plus most countries have a lot of money invest in the US. Why would they want to set themselves up by dropping the dollar. I can understand for China to drop it because they don't have much money invest in the US,

LOL, China doesn't have much money to invest in the US? China has the second largest economy in terms of purchasing power... they control nearly $1 trillion of the U.S.' deficit... "No money to invest"... rofl...You kiddin me?

Most of the infastructure and commerical real estate in the US are owned by foreign countries.

How wrong can you be?

T Not to mention all the money the goverment is illigally profiting around the globe, such as drug traficating. It is estimated the the CIA brings in about 500 billion dollars yearly from drug traficating that's more than oil profits around the globe.

Wow... where do you even get thsi information. This post is hillarious





[edit on 2-1-2007 by k4rupt]

Oh, and stellar, don't mind ape.

To ape, anyone who opposes Fairtax is automatically an Anti-American, pro-outsourcing, globalist who has no job and lives with his parents.

I have no idea how he draws those conclusions...

He also believes there are NO negatives, backdraws with Fairtax. He is so convinced that Fairtax is the key to solving EVERY American problem, that he wont' even take a look at ANY of the criticism. It's an awesome way to deny ignorance.





OH, and Ape, when you say that we Americans have full control of our destiny, you are full of it. 59% of Americans want to PULL OUT OF IRAQ, however, the house voted 403 - 3 to stay in Iraq. We have control? Rofl... save the talk for an idiot.



[edit on 2-1-2007 by k4rupt]

Or.. the corporations would go to a different country... like India?

more like back to the US when the fairtax is installed along with every other nations industry.

[edit on 2-1-2007 by ape]

k4rupt
the house voted 403 - 3 to stay in Iraq. We have control?

heh most of those people got voted out, please try to think past nov 7th ok?

[edit on 2-1-2007 by ape]

K4rupt

Please explain to me what would be better for America then the fairtax? Im open to anything. I, like ape, happen to be a strong supporter of the fairtax. I know what it can and will do for this country. Most ppl who dont support the fair tax usually dont know a whole lot about it. So take some time and read up on it.

Now, you say that it has been said that the fairtax would hurt the economy. Explain to me how YOU feel it would hurt the US economy? Oh which by the way many economist happen to disagree with. They are saying that the fairtax would 'unshackle' americas economy. Here that? "Unshackle"! 75 economist have said in its first proposed year our economy would grow 10.5%. By 2015 our economy would be double its current size it is now.

Now if they are wrong (which I seriously doubt) and i am wrong please feel free to point me to a reliable source so I can change my strong opinion about the fairtax.

Wether you disagree with the fairtax or not something needs to be done with our current taxation system.


[edit on 113131p://0601pm by semperfoo]