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China's Geo political strategy

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posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 04:18 AM
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Katrina (rebuilding the South), 9-11, War, The Tsuami, Aids erm Aid.

Yea - there are lots of reasons why we have our debt if you take of the blinders and look.

The U.S. National debt is 64% of GDP.

Canada has the lowest debt of any G-8 nation of 38%, Japan as a debt of 170% GPD.

China has a national debt of 21.6% GDP.

The EU:

Belgium: 103%
Germany: 67.9%
France: 66.6%
Italy: 106.6%
Greece: 107.7%
Spain: 43.3%
Ireland: 27.4%
Nederland: 52.7%
Austria: 63.4%
Finland: 41.3%
Portugal: 60%
Luxembourg: 6%
U.K.: 42.4%
Sweden: 50.4%

Average EU Debt: 67%

U.S. Debt: 64%

Yea, I see everyone flocking to the EU right now.


[edit on 29-12-2006 by crisko]




posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by crisko
Katrina (rebuilding the South),


The South is not really being rebuilt and the parts that are is from good old fashioned insurance money not some kind of huge government bailout. If they wanted to save money they would not have ensured the destruction of the levees or the Hurricanes existence at that strength.


9-11,


Does seven buildings and a couple of planes really cost 4 trillion dollars? The whole of Europe were rebuilt for less money than that after World War two...


War,


Based on lies and government complicity? They wanted this war and they got their war.


The Tsuami,


So how much money has in fact been given? Find me the figure....


Aids erm Aid.


Aid is nonsense as it's just a small fraction of the money being stolen from the third world that is given back for very good PR value. If you steal 100 USD worth of goods and give back 1 USD does that make you charitable?


Yea - there are lots of reasons why we have our debt if you take of the blinders and look.


The countries you named all have relatively far higher infrastructure investment policies and generally higher living standards. The money the US government has WASTED in such sums were rarely spent on social welfare or anything worth a damn.


The U.S. National debt is 64% of GDP.


Which is far far too much for a country with the natural wealth of the USA.


Canada has the lowest debt of any G-8 nation of 38%,


Considering the standards of living and infrastructure that is not bad but not great either so it's probably part of the infectious destructive policies of their next door neighbor...


Japan as a debt of 170% GPD.


Highways, airports, extensive public transportation networks and the almost overdeveloped infrastructure wont disappear in a puff of smoke when the financial markets crashes. When you spend money you don't have ( presumably other people's money) on things that you can prevent others from taking away your playing it smart and should be congratulated.


China has a national debt of 21.6% GDP.


Very little thus for a economy that will only get stronger...


The EU:

Average EU Debt: 67%


Once again go look where that money were spent and you will understand why the troubles the US faces will not be resolved any day soon and why the Euro is getting stronger during a time when the value of the dollar has declined by more than half.


U.S. Debt: 64%

Yea, I see everyone flocking to the EU right now.


Ignorance really is bliss as one simply refuses to acknowledge the tracks one stands on or the oncoming train.

Stellar



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 06:55 AM
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I did read your post, but I am not going to get into "quote" wars with you.

Katrina cost the United States 400 billion if not more.

AIDS / HIV assistance in Africa cost us 400 Billion

Tsunamis - this is harder to track as not only did we offer $350 million is money, we offered the logistics support of our Navy and Airforces.

Hey - thats about a trillion right there.

The World Trade Center is more than just buildings - mulit-billion dollar firms took their money and investment else where - that is a HUGE loss.

Then there were the Billions that we spent bailing out the Airline Industry, cost of cleanup, care for the victims, and rebuilding (which is just starting)

On top of two wars, and the rebuilding of an entire country.

If you think the standard of living is better in the EU you are mistaken. Ever been to Rural Texas? Welcome to Spain. Thats just to start - while I was in the Air Force I spent significant time in Spain, Germany and England.

I won't debate the above with you - as I have first hand experience, you don't and it's all a matter of opinion anyways.

Oh yea - China's dollar debt is $300 Billion, which means the GDP of that country is about 1.5T. You don't think that is going to skyrocket as they expand their Navy and improve infrastructure and subsidize foriegn investment?

Also, in regards to China - they are about to start spending on the developement of a Public Health Care System, enforce Environmental Standards etc.

Yea - that's gonna hurt.

And I go to Tokyo once a month on business - it's no different (better or worse) than NYC.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by crisko]



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 07:48 AM
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I offer three reasons why I oppose deficit spending which is the purposeful policy of the current Republican Administration, itself due to expire January 20, 2009.

1) The American economy is strong enough to be on a “pay as you go” basis which would have the serendipitous side effect of keeping the body politic acutely conscious of what the Administration is doing in its name.

2) It contradicts the beneficial Keynesian “pump priming” economic theory which is best applied in times of national economic depression or recession. In an economy growing faster than the inflation rate - net positive growth - pump priming is neither required nor wise. Do not fatuously waste your assets.

3) Generational tax burden shifting. Whether intended or not, the long term effect of deficit spending and its consequential borrowing is to shift the tax burden to future generations. The side effect of debt incurred by this generation is the committing of future tax revenues to interest payments. For us to obligate future tax revenues to interest payments on debt limits future administration’s flexibility and imposes unforeseeable risks we have no right or need to do.

Discounting the entitlements, interest on debt is the second largest item in our Federal budget, after Defense. Republican pro-debt policy puts undeserved strains on a future Administration’s ability to borrow which is predictable in the upcoming Social Security shortfall as the “Baby Boomer” generation retires, in the 2010-2040 time frame. Demographics suggest the Social Security Trust Fund will be back in the black after 2040. This is not true of the Medicare Trust Fund which must be dealt with separately. (Medicaid is not an entitlement.)

Conclusion. We are being fiscally irresponsible by not imposing a War Tax to cover the extra costs involved in the responses this Administration has invoked post the Nine Eleven Event.


[edit on 12/29/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 07:52 AM
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You can't impose a War Tax unless Congress declares war.

So, who should we declare War on?



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 08:41 AM
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posted by crisko

You can't impose a War Tax unless Congress declares war. So, who should we declare War on? [Edited by Don W]



I urged a 75 cents a gallon War Tax on gasoline and diesel for the duration of the War on Terror. It would have had the salubrious effect of keeping deficits lower and giving citizens a feeling of participation at the same time! Which is good for home front morale.

Which you are now witnessing dissipate. Americans love wars when we win, we don’t give a dam for war when we lose. Bush43 has lost the support of the people for a war badly over-sold. As LBJ lied to the people, so B43 lied to the people. When caught, that cannot be undone. It is only a matter of time now before we leave Iraq. The ISG Report offered B43 “cover” and shared responsibility but he is determined to spoil his legacy with Iraq. Explain that.

Oh, “ . . declare war?” Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11. HST was unpopular in 1950. We operated under a UN Mandate and did not really need a Congressional declaration of war. What we were engaged in was not technically a war. So we fought in Korea 3 years without a declaration of war. Lost 45,000 men. Bad precedent.

Then we engaged in Indo China, again without a declaration of war. Lost 59,000 men that time. But LBJ was unpopular and could not have obtained a declaration of war from Congress. Reagan acted in Granada. Bush41 acted in Panama. And now, Bush43 first in Afghan and then in Iraq.

Congress is at fault, because it has the power of purse. B43 may be Commander in Chief, but without money, he commands nothing. So this argument amongst citizens is really a non sequitur. For a variety of reasons, the Congress prefers it this way. Credit when wining but no blame when losing. With both Afghan and Iraq “gone south” there will be no one to claim paternity of either. That’s leadership 2006 style.



[edit on 12/29/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 09:38 AM
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don,

While I find your aspirations noble - taxing gasoline as you suggest would bring our economy to a halt.

It would fail - in some areas that is $4.00 a gallon for gas - that is not feasable.

Increasing Tax on smokes and spirits may be a good start - but even then you could only go so far.

No - you need Congress as a whole to declare War - then you would see the American War Time Economy kick in.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by crisko]



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 10:22 AM
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This was about China. If you want to know....China will never take over the World. They will come close, though. I have sat with Ralph Cline and other Government people from China and Canada. I have had private meetings with Chinese Officials.

The greed, which is running rampant in the USA, will be what causes their Dollar to loose value. When the world looses faith in the USD, they will sell off in such large volumes that it will bankrupt the Country.

I am a US National, living in Canada. This is a warning to people. There is nothing that can be done to change what has already started.

My only hope for us is that something new will come allong. The world will not end, just the way things are run will be done differently.



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by crisko
I did read your post, but I am not going to get into "quote" wars with you.


Probably a good decision as not getting involved ensures that you may leave not having change your mind on anything.


Katrina cost the United States 400 billion if not more.


Based on? That was some math being done as to the economic impact and i am not sure it's either accurate or has much to do with the federal government.


AIDS / HIV assistance in Africa cost us 400 Billion


And if you believe a lie so vapid you will believe anything.


Tsunamis - this is harder to track as not only did we offer $350 million is money, we offered the logistics support of our Navy and Airforces.


The cost of invading a country is not cheap and what does sending the fleet have to do with aid? Why not send the hospital ships or actual help?


Hey - thats about a trillion right there.


If's one's imagine is active enough i suppose you can make up the 8 trillion dollars inside a few hours....


The World Trade Center is more than just buildings - mulit-billion dollar firms took their money and investment else where - that is a HUGE loss.


Why would they do that? I know of at least one company that lost basically it's entire means of income ( most of it's highly experienced and educated staff in America) and still managed to keep the company afloat? What is a few multi billion dollar firms when you waste hundreds of billions so you can ensure that the oil prices double in four years?


Then there were the Billions that we spent bailing out the Airline Industry, cost of cleanup, care for the victims, and rebuilding (which is just starting)


Why bail out the airline industry? These are not things that HAVE to be done but special interest that socialism for the rich is always in place. The airline industry were in trouble long before 2001 and it was a great year for them as suddenly they could blame it all on someone or something else.


On top of two wars,


Fought for reasons not in the America's interest.


and the rebuilding of an entire country.


What happened to it?


If you think the standard of living is better in the EU you are mistaken.


Well go disagree with the international agencies that actually determine that sorta thing!


Ever been to Rural Texas? Welcome to Spain. Thats just to start - while I was in the Air Force I spent significant time in Spain, Germany and England.


Great; you have realized and seen that most countries have it's poor. What is America's excuse for having any poor at all?

[quoteI won't debate the above with you

Wont or can't?


- as I have first hand experience, you don't and it's all a matter of opinion anyways.


It's not all a matter of opinion but if that's how you like your reality it's fine and i am not going to follow you around saying otherwise...


Oh yea - China's dollar debt is $300 Billion, which means the GDP of that country is about 1.5T. You don't think that is going to skyrocket as they expand their Navy and improve infrastructure and subsidize foriegn investment?


No i do not as they are almost the model country for the worlds investment bankers. If you go look at China's foreign currency reserve holdings you will notice that they could pay back their debt on any given day and that is so with a few countries i believe.


Also, in regards to China - they are about to start spending on the developement of a Public Health Care System, enforce Environmental Standards etc.
Yea - that's gonna hurt.


They started long ago and their health sector actually declined during the 80's and 90's after being developed and operated more efficiently in 70's... There is some great instances of the Chinese government making massive changes to affect environmental stability ( the logging industry was taken apart in mere years) where it impacted most on it's citizens and they are in many instances investing in environmentally friendly technologies where developed countries have chosen not to; it's a odd way to try catch up so they must be quite sure that they will be able to control the flow of investment in the future... Remember that the Chinese apparently have the power to keep the Yuan dollar exchange rate greatly in their favor thus undermining the American economy ever faster; how do they affect such coup's against supposed superpowers? Do you realize how much the American economy could benefit if just that situation were resolved in a fair manner?


And I go to Tokyo once a month on business - it's no different (better or worse) than NYC.


But how much of the USA is as developed as NY and how much of Japan has been? You would be well advised to assume i have done research and apparently first hand experience has not left you as informed as it could have.

Stellar


ape

posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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I disagree with those that say there is nothing the Us can do to stop china, like we will remain stagnant, well this is historically impossible and anyone who says different does not live in america, also america is one of the prime reasons if not the sole reason china has grown so much. america also donates more to charity and relief aid than every other country combinded stellar, i suggest doing more research because the US invests heavily in other nations to fight aids and hunger, even though you belueve the US is the sole cause for hunger world wide because 'we destroy the agruiculture of other nations' etc. i also suggest taking a look at the tax system in the EU, they have the VAt tax along with income taxes and a whole other load of arcane taxes, the socialist have taken over the EU more people rely on the government and social programs to take care of themselves in a fashion that puts the US to shame. take alook at the unemployment of certain countrys in the EU and the 'more developed' infrastructure does nothing to quell this because of the current system they work under hardly allows advancment, its almost as bad as the US. hah the french actually think they have a right to work less while getting paid the same as anyone who works a 40 hour week or more anywhere else, it's this type of mentality the socialist feed off of, the ' hey the government should be taking care of me' mentality.

we will take back that infrastructure along with investment and industry as soon as some adjustments are made.

the first step is the fair tax, with this enabled we would be taking back our industry and putting a halt to outsourcing, this is hurting us bad right now. we are a very wealthy nation and certain steps such as fair tax would give people more insight on how money is being spent and if it's being spent in our best interests, the 1st step to going back to checks and balances instead of borrowing and spending which out stupid politicans do now.

if anyone argues with this then i suggest debating with greenspan and other intellectuals, greenspan is referenced alot here by people who dislike or like america, any bias comments about our industry would be exactly that, the future belongs to americans not some biased foreign opinion and we alone control our destiny not the government.



[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
I have to concur with all you say above, SX,


Why thank you!


but I have one question about the supposed worth of one family.


Maybe i should have used the word 'group' instead as it's at best a very extended family related by blood but not always by just one or two generations...

www.prisonplanet.com...

www.prisonplanet.com...

And the most extensive resource for general investigation of 9-11...

www.prisonplanet.com...


In 2000, the WSJournal reported the total worth of the United States, if you bought everything, was $45 trillion. On that basis, and my assumption the US has about 20% of the world’s wealth, which would make the entire planet “worth” about $225 trillion.


I don't see how that could be accurate considering the relative few people living in the USA and the general cost of infrastructure no matter where you are living. I'm not going to search for sources ATM but based on what i recall reading the American slice of the pie is far smaller than western propaganda might lead one to believe...


Now you and I may have the problem about American trillions and English trillions. My trillion is 10 to the12th. Which is the same as an English billion, I believe. Although dubious, I could more easily accept $300 billion USD as the worth of a family.


Sorry but sadly the world is far stranger than that.
I don't enjoy the sharing of this knowledge btw and it would have been better if there was no such reality to be aware of.

Stellar


ape

posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 01:02 PM
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prison planet? that place is a joke man, it's almost soviet empire status. the majority of those claims have already been debunked showing misinformation and obvious manipulation of the facts on the part of prison planet.


i live in this country man, i invest pay my taxes and have fun in america( and believe me this pace is fun) its insulting to think people can pass this kind of crap on and expect peolpe to bite, I know there are alot of idiots in america who believe this, expecially on this site but it really is insulting.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]


ape

posted on Dec, 29 2006 @ 08:11 PM
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whqat is that russian woman on about claiming the NWO ? she needs to reg on this site and become a poster!!! I will die a hard glorious death in battle to prevent exactly that and so would many other americans despite people thinking we would just succumb like we are sheeple. that woman needs to get a clue.

nothing but opinions, slanted ones at that but thats what I have always enountered with prison planet, they cherry pick their information and articles and ignore and attack actual fact. prison planet has an agenda and it's not for informing me of the truth.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 04:26 AM
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Originally posted by ape
prison planet? that place is a joke man,


Then you are far more ingorant than i ever began to imagine and you should consider the credibility you had with me exhausted.


it's almost soviet empire status.


Alex Jones provides about as much factual data about the subject matters he touches on as you will find anywhere on the net as it's not simplistic matters he deals with. To compare it to something like Soviet empire is doing nothing but exposing your own ignorance on these matters.


the majority of those claims have already been debunked showing misinformation and obvious manipulation of the facts on the part of prison planet.


Where have they been debunked and since when are you know a expert on these matters? Feel free to show what was debunked as i am MOST interested in exposing your ignorance.


i live in this country man, i invest pay my taxes and have fun in america( and believe me this pace is fun) its insulting to think people can pass this kind of crap on and expect peolpe to bite,


That's too bad as it happened and Alex is just reporting on reality. Do you think he wants to believe those things and why can he always provide you with the sources that you probably wont dispute? What does how much you enjoy being a American have to do with anything?


I know there are alot of idiots in america who believe this, expecially on this site but it really is insulting.


I think the opposite is true and sadly i can show very little of the official story about 9-11 is true. The only thing that is in fact true, as far as i can tell, is that the world trade centers are no longer standing.


Originally posted by ape
whqat is that russian woman on about claiming the NWO ? she needs to reg on this site and become a poster!!!


Have you looked at her position in the Russian government and her predictions about 9-11? Why did her predictions turn out to be inaccurate by about twenty days and why was the attack of American financial institutions just as she said?


I will die a hard glorious death in battle to prevent exactly that and so would many other americans despite people thinking we would just succumb like we are sheeple. that woman needs to get a clue.


Your doing nothing to resist it by denying the reality of the attack upon America. You apparently believe that America's declining economy is just a coincidence and not a deliberate conspiracy against the American people and your blind faith in the system will not only be your undoing but America's.


nothing but opinions, slanted ones at that but thats what I have always enountered with prison planet,


Then you have not studied it or understand nothing of the subject matter that some investigation ( or my close scrutiny) will not fix in the long run.


they cherry pick their information and articles and ignore and attack actual fact. prison planet has an agenda and it's not for informing me of the truth.


I think it's fair to say that Alex Jones has only one agenda and that is saving America from it's current rulers ( and their NWO backers) by spreading awareness resulting in mass action that hopefully leads to government by the people for the people.

From now on forward every claim you make will suffer my close scrutiny ( i don't stalk but when i read a thread and your posting there don't expect any more of the patience i have so far displayed) and i can assure you that what you have so far said has little to do with reality.

Stellar


ape

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 10:48 AM
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and if you for once think that me and other americans would just allow our lives to go to complete and utter shambles then you have exaughsted what little credability you ever had with me, just because I agree with you on peak oil doesn't mean I agree with you on all things.

I live in this country what is some south african going to tell me about prison planet like its legit and whats going on in my country if you have zero experience in this country, I know prison planet and its a joke and sources like that and other is capitalism at it's finest infact because it feeds to the suspicion and mistrust for the government that already exists and gains profit, you are feeding on this and you're ignorant. if you refuse to look at any counter evidence that 9/11 was not an inside job which I think is very obvious because there is plenty of information out there you only choose to ignore it and cherry pick outrageous sites like prison planet, it may be reputable in south africa but here in america places like that are laughed at, and so are the people who back them. dont tell me my countrys economy is in trouble as i already know, take a good look at south africa before critisizing my country?? especially when adjustments are in place to bring america into a new age of economic prosperity which you choose to ignore. I for one am not going to do your research for you as I already have, I live in this country I pay taxes and invest and thrive in this country something you do not, hell you havent even been here despite your OPINION about it which really lacks substance.

have you ever been to america? have you even lived here? you can come to the conclusions you want from what you gather on google or wherever you choose to cherry pick your sources but it does not change the fact you have no clue what you're talking about because you have zero experience and only gtaher what suits your own biased opinion. for every insulting CLAIM on prison planet there is something to counter it with actual fact. posting crap from 2002 that has no base or has already been debunked really is irrelevant especially from some biased ignorant soviet doctor.

the fact you immediatly called me ignorant because I challenged your position tells me you dont have the mental fortitude to even engage in an intellectual debate without having to attack and insult people as u so constantly display, googling up bias sources and taking someone elses paragraphs and rewriting them without doing proper research and taking it as gospel is the epitomy of ignorance.

what in the hell gives u so much experience from south africa? dont insult me or my country from your little corner of the earth on that devestated continent unless you got something intellectual to post that has substance instead of biased opinion, especially prison planet. you basically call me and every other american an ignorant piece of garbage when you think we would just roll over and get conquered by our government, keep dreaming buddy.

i dont know how things are ran in south africa but in america we are not dominated and tossed around by our government, here in america it's a wonderfull place to live and if you think otherwise then you have no experience in my country and just completly misinformed, sure my country has some flaws, those flaws can be fixed by the american people.

and if you want to attempt to engage in debate with me then you will be wasting your time, im talking to someone who does not live and see the domestic situation in my country and who relys on bias internet sources so I would not expect you to be accurate at all as you have displayed here and on a few other threads. saying europe is a better place to live?? take a good look at france and germany then come again.


if you dont mind me asking what ethnicity are you? me im italian and english, I understand south africa has been subject to western interests and rape so im starting to see where the bias comes from.

could this also be another reason for the anger?

"Large income gaps and a dual economy designate South Africa as developing; South Africa has one of the highest rates of income inequality in the world. Consecutive growth rates in the last ten years are helping lower unemployment; however, daunting economic problems remain. Other problems are crime, corruption, and HIV/AIDS"

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

i suggest putting your energy into solving the current domestic issues your country faces rather then exaughsting all of your hatred on my country, focus it towards the better instead of the reverse, I dont think it was americans who settled there all those centuries ago and caused massive genocide on that continent and continued voilence.


en.wikipedia.org...

such a large crime rate for a small country.

it must be nice living in cape town.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]


ape

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 02:23 PM
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hmm, i find it funny how you resemble alex jones when you engage in debate when someone disagrees with you, you are constantly insulting americans on this website.

perrylogan.org...

read the bottom it pretty much sums everything up, alex jones is a crack head.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]


oh this guy does a good job on breaking down alex jones and the garbage misinformation he spews, heh you actually play to the jones hand? this is pretty shocking.

members.iinet.net.au...
members.iinet.net.au...

now even though this guy has a far out opinion he does a good job at making some good points about alex jones that are overlooked, or in your case ignored.


i think I have a better grip on my country than you seem to understand, once again you dont live here so I would not expect you to form an accurate opinion about domestic issues.

dont insult me by saying this man is saving my country etc, you have no clue whatsoever mang alex jones is an idiot and an insult.

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by ape

According to this source



"The Sabre's combat record in Korea was, by any standards, impressive. Of the 900 aerial victories claimed by USAF pilots during the war, 792 were MiG-15s shot down by Sabres. The MiGs in their turn managed to knock down only 78 Sabres. American fighter pilots thus established a ten-to-one kill/loss ration in their favor.


The main Mission of the Mig were to interdict ground attack aircraft and since more than 3000 allied aircraft were written off ( due to all causes) it's odd to credit the sabre's with ALL the Mig's that were shot down or damaged. The half a dozen other jet fighters and fighter/bombers the US/allies deployed scored no hits or non of the Mig-15's were lost due to ground fire or 'accidents' ( the allies had more than a thousand ' non combat' losses so to be fair...) Why are the Soviet pilots claims of a thousand or more air victories so easily dismissed while everyone believes the outrageous claims made by the USAF ( remember how they shot down tens of thousands of German fighters?) despite the allies at least having enough aircraft in theater for such claims to be possible?


Documented postwar research indicates there were actually only about 379 US victories. The Soviets claimed to have shot down more than 650 Sabres, while USAF records show 224 F-86s lost to all causes, including non-combat."

www.rt66.com...


They could have easily shot down 650 jet fighters or figther bombers.

Allies losses to all causes in jet aircraft...

[rc]The F-84 flew a total of 86,408 missions and dropped 111,171,000 pounds (50,427 tons) of bombs and 12,258,000 pounds (5,560 tons) of napalm. The USAF claimed that the F-84s were responsible for 60 percent of all ground targets destroyed in the war. Notable F-84 operations included the 1952 attack on the Sui-ho Dam. The F-84 pilots were credited with 8 MiG-15 kills at a loss of 64 aircraft in air combat. The total losses were 335 F-84D, E, and G models. During the war, the F-84 became the first USAF fighter to utilize aerial refueling in combat.

en.wikipedia.org...

That's 64 confirmed kills with an additional 250 'possibiles' ( battle damage or whatever you want to call it to make yourself feel better) against the F-84.

www.korean-war.com...


F9F-2s, F9F-3s and F9F-5s served with distinction in the Korean War, downing six Mikoyan MiG-15s with one F9F loss. The first MiG-15 downed was on 9 November 1950 by U.S. Navy Lieutenant Commander William (Bill) Amen of VF-111 "Sundownders" Squadron flying an F9F-2B. Three more were downed in November 1951, and the other two were downed on the 18 November 1952. The type was the primary Navy jet fighter and ground-attack plane in the Korean conflict.

en.wikipedia.org...


Then a 163 Panthers lost to all causes and according to the source below with wikipedia creditin migs with one kill for eight losses . I guess the allies pilots were good at fighting and shooting down migs but absolutely sucked at landing in one piece?

www.korean-war.com...


Of the 277 F-80s lost in operations (approximately 30% of the existing inventory), 113 were destroyed by ground fire and 14 shot down by enemy aircraft.[1] Major Charles J. Loring, Jr. was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions while flying with the 80th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 8th Fighter-Bomber Wing on November 22, 1952.

en.wikipedia.org...


Losses of 277 due to bad landings or non specified 'battle damage' since less than half were actually lost due to enemy action?


By the end of the conflict, the squadron had flown 4,836 missions, destroying six MiG-15s, over 3,500 structures and some 1,500 vehicles. About 30 Meteors were lost to enemy action in Korea — the vast majority of these were shot down by anti-aircraft fire while serving in a ground attack capacity

en.wikipedia.org...


Another 40 losses attributed to bad landings and enemy air defenses yet they did have time to shoot down Mig's while dodging anti aircraft guns i suppose.


Review of archived and previously classified documents released after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 disputes the numbers of claims by U.S. pilots, stating that the VVS lost only 345 MiGs. In turn the Soviets claimed to have shot down more than 1,300 U.N. aircraft including more than 650 Sabres. However, USAF records revealed that there were only about 660 Sabres deployed to the Korean theater in the entire war. This fact makes the Soviet claims highly dubious. USAF records also show 224 F-86s lost to all causes, including non-combat. Many air engagements are corroborated by both sides, but with conflicting claims of kills.

en.wikipedia.org...


So According to the earlier source 290 or so Sabre's were lost to all causes but supposedly the only figther in theather that could reliable take on Mig-15's were being sent to get blown to bits by air defenses or just to land on the nearest and worse airfield to ensure prompt right off.

So the US forces lost more than 650 jets and it's up to us to just believe that the Mig-15's had so little to do with that. Just bad weather and muddy airfields i suppose...


m just talkingg mig vs sabre here, I understand all the sources vary but most of the ones I have enountered have said the sabre have a superior kill ratio against the mig no matter if the mig had certain superior features and sabre still had some advantages of its own which they pilots utalized, obviously the better trained won.


I have no problem believing that the Sabre managed more kills as the war was long and the best soviet pilots did not stay very long. Ten to one is based entirely on the notion that no other allied aircraft managed any success.


now i will end my post with this, we should both agree with chuck yager when we are discussing weaponry of different nations in that it's not the technoloy it's the pilots and the man in the cockpit =)


Which is obvious but we should not forget the doctrine as in the case of Korea. MiG's had to get past the fighter screens and attack the allied bombers punishing Chinese and North Korean troops so obviously there is a immediate loss of initiative that got even generally proficient ( even when the Germans were losing pilots at those rates they still managed surprising proficiency with few flight hours)German pilots killed at alarming rates. They faced a similar situation to Germany in late 1943 to early 1944 imo and if the losses were not edited to hide the nature of allied losses we might get a far better picture of how able and efficient Mig-15's were in combat despite the relative inexperience compared to who they had to go up against.

Stellar

[edit on 30-12-2006 by StellarX]


ape

posted on Dec, 30 2006 @ 05:29 PM
link   
considering my original post referenced the engagment in mig alley and mig alley alone, not the entire war, the migs got dominated in mig alley. once again the russian numbers have proven to be manipulated, soviet documents found they claimed to destroy more sabres then what was actually deployed, bunch of liars.



posted by stellarX
Russian technology that took apart the German army with American and British technology barely making progress on their small stretch of the European front lines?


another example of ignorance, first of all soviet industry got decimated and if it wasn't for the US lend lease providing all of the raw materials and metals and ammuniton the soviets wouldm not have been able to push back at stalingrad, it was the US who enabled them to roll out those tanks and equip those troops to run over the germans, please stop ignoring history and creating your own version of it. you can thank the US for preventing the total collapse of it's future cold war rival, what a bunch of ungreatfull commies.

en.wikipedia.org...


US deliveries to USSR
The list 1 below is the amount of war matériel shipped to the Soviet Union through the Lend-Lease program from its beginning until 30 September 1945.

Aircraft 14,795
Tanks 7,056
Jeeps 51,503
Trucks 375,883
Motorcycles 35,170
Tractors 8,071
Guns 8,218
Machine guns 131,633
Explosives 345,735 tons
Building equipment valued $10,910,000
Railroad freight cars 11,155
Locomotives 1,981
Cargo ships 90
Submarine hunters 105
Torpedo boats 197
Ship engines 7,784
Food supplies 4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment $1,078,965,000
Non-ferrous metals 802,000 tons
Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
Chemicals 842,000 tons
Cotton 106,893,000 tons
Leather 49,860 tons
Tires 3,786,000
Army boots 15,417,001 pairs

enough said?


here's some more info basically debunking your boy alex jones

southerncrossreview.org...

www.popularmechanics.com...

www.freerepublic.com...


[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 30-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 31 2006 @ 05:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by ape
hmm, i find it funny how you resemble alex jones when you engage in debate when someone disagrees with you, you are constantly insulting americans on this website.


If you consider the truth about the American foreign policy to be so insulting try change it as i am just reporting on what is in fact happening. If i insult you odd are you more than deserve it and in your case i am being as civil as any understand of general civility allows for. I have my own disagreements with what Alex says on occasion but the type of people he generally insults should not be called 'Americans' as what they have done to America's interest is quite beyond excuse or anything that could result from mere mismanagement or accident. They are deliberately attempting to destroy the American constitution that is the last thing that might help American citizens to recover from the economic situation that has been imposed on them.



perrylogan.org...
read the bottom it pretty much sums everything up, alex jones is a crack head.


Since when is being insulting and abbrasive make you wrong? Is calling some people such names not justified ( if Alex calls you names odds are you deserve much of it) and what does his bad manners have to do with the accuracy of his reporting? Personally i don't call people names ( ignorant means your ignorant, uninformed means your uninformed; not insult at all) but i have some sympathy with those who occasionally resort to name calling when they are talking to sadistic mass murdering types of people.

Thinking that Alex is the problem is a conspiracy theory far more complex than any of those he has managed to help expose ( Bohemian grove and the basic "Satanic' - not that i believe in Satan but it does not seem in accurate either- nature of those who direct so much of what takes place in the world. If you want to attack his credibility i will defend it as his one of the better things America currently has going for itself.


oh this guy does a good job on breaking down alex jones and the garbage misinformation he spews, heh you actually play to the jones hand? this is pretty shocking.

members.iinet.net.au...
members.iinet.net.au...


You can find all the source material Alex jones uses ( it's all from the major media or defense/intelligence papers) and to deny the accuracy or the validity of the general picture he forms is insanity and denial on a scale that i find hard to comprehend. To deny what really is such overwhelming data in favor of believing in a American government that sends tens of thousands of it's citizens to get maimed and killed based on whole lies is odd; to put it in the kindest terms possible. What you should do is actually go to his web sites and study the material before simply digging up trashy hit pieces that tries to undermine one claim he made in a effort to discredit all the rest of the good work he has clearly done.

Should i take those articles to mean that you do not believe the official us story as to what happened on 9-11 as it is the site of a 9-11 investigator making quite specific statements as to where one of the reporters on Prison planet were wrong? Just interested as i have read much about the 9-11 issue and this guy is in no way backing the original story either. Is this just some kind of vapid attack on Alex using the first two links you could find that bothered to attack his credibility? I just read some information related to the site you specificied and he seems to deny that there were any planes involved in the destruction of the WTC's or the Pentagon. Do you believe that to be so as my research still indicates that there were in fact planes involved if not in the actual controlled demolitions later on?


i think I have a better grip on my country than you seem to understand,


Actually your a disgrace to your nation and apparently a nationalistic chest pounding type who denies all the problems that would indicate that his government is deliberately acting against his best interest even thought that is the historic standard of most if not all empires.


once again you dont live here so I would not expect you to form an accurate opinion about domestic issues.


I can tell that i probably have a better grasp of the overall American domestic situation than you do despite the inherent problems resulting from no first hand experience. You clearly see what you want and deny everything else and this is no way to investigate any aspect of reality.


dont insult me by saying this man is saving my country etc,


He is and sadly your the type of person that will be the last to notice how much he has already done.


you have no clue whatsoever mang alex jones is an idiot and an insult.


I don't have to have a clue( in theory at least) as the evidence presented by so many authors and different investigative reporters and groups are overwhelming independent of what Alex Jones has to say on any issue. If you want to discuss specific issues Alex Jones has brought up then lets start as the general slander of his person is not the type of thing i like to get involved in doing or defending against.

Stellar

[edit on 31-12-2006 by StellarX]



posted on Dec, 31 2006 @ 09:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by ape
and if you for once think that me and other americans would just allow our lives to go to complete and utter shambles then you have exaughsted what little credability you ever had with me,


I don't care what credibility i have with a ignorant uninformed insulting person who does not dispute information provided with anything but disdain, known propaganda, or claims based entirely on unsupported but media reinforced perception; that's if he even acknowledges the presence of information contrary to what his almost religious like convictions dictates. Americans like you have already watched while your economy and strategic forces are systematically undermined so excuse me if i try point you in a direction that might actually aid you in forming a understanding of the real dangers and problems you face.


just because I agree with you on peak oil doesn't mean I agree with you on all things.


Clearly not and i suppose you think peak oil is a deliberate scam by the communist or socialist to insult Americans and take away their tank like utility vehicles?


I live in this country what is some south african


The fact that a South-African like myself is required to help inform you as to your current position must be quite embarrassing and i understand some hostility must result from having so many obvious truth shoved in your face by someone who has no business being anything else than black, stupid and generally unable to use these complicated means of communication. I am sorry to disappoint and upset your carefully constructed delusions about the rest of the world but in the rest of the world it is sometimes more important to understand what is happening in the USA than in your own country and the world's economic policies are in great part enforced by means of American sponsored violence and general state terrorism.


going to tell me about prison planet like its legit


Alex Jones is in my opinion legit and doing a good job of informing people even if he goes overboard too many times when in the presence of known scum. It's the first time i used that word on ATS but Alex has on many occasions had the guts to actually talk to people who are absolutely and unequivocally deserving of that description.


and whats going on in my country if you have zero experience in this country,


I know more about your countries actions on the world stage than you do as my country has been one of those to suffer due to it. I am not sure what you think you know but from previous experience with you i am starting to think that it is not much and not often related to reality as could be discovered from reading your own defense, intelligence and government documents. I hardly have to be American to learn to read books or use the Internet so there is no way a sane, logical or remotely reasonable argument could be made for my exclusion from discussing American affairs political, economical or whatever else.


I know prison planet and its a joke and sources


You do not know prison planet as going there and reading could only lead a sane well informed person to consider it credible and not related to 'jokes' in any way. By attacking the general accuracy or credibility of such sites are you disqualifying yourself from being taken very seriously on a site where we attempt to deal with what is real and not what is commonly believed.


like that and other is capitalism at it's finest infact because it feeds to the suspicion and mistrust for the government that already exists and gains profit,


Does it matter as we should be suspicious of all forms of government? The whole notion of patriotism is a inherent mistrust of those who can and does wield power as they might be inclined to use it against whoever is closest. Alex Jones do sell books and video's ( according to him that's just to cover the costs of investigations) but they are not expensive considering the quality ( i have watched a few short segments and a lot of work went into the production) his request that you make copies ( His copyright conditions allows for that) to distribute to friends are not in my opinion a sign of a money hungry capitalist.


you are feeding on this and you're ignorant.


I am not paying Alex for anything and i think i have shown that whatever ignorance my state of ignorance may be it does not begin to rival the depth of yours.


if you refuse to look at any counter evidence that 9/11 was not an inside job which I think is very obvious because there is plenty of information out there you only choose to ignore it and cherry pick outrageous sites like prison planet,


You are employing a site below that claims there were no planes involved in brining the towers down so you will have to decide if you hate Alex Jones more or want to defend the 9-11 official lies. I have not ignored the evidence as any investigation of counter claims , to the original government one's, require a careful study of the original claim ( there is no other way to proceed ; you can't attack claims you are not aware of) thus my being very much better informed about the official claims than anyone who actually supports them. Supporting the official claims does not require a understanding of them as there is no questioning hence no investigation. You are making quite the mockery of what investigation of reality require of a person. If you want to have a more specific discussion on the issues pertaining to 9-11 go to the forums related to such as you will quickly find yourself in trouble. If you insist i know a few things that destroys the official story but there are specialist on ATS ( i have seen some but forget the names) that could alleviate you of some of that ignorance.


it may be reputable in south africa but here in america places like that are laughed at,


Then you don't know what America is about or how much credibility Alex has established over the years even in relatively main stream reporting. Why bring where i live into this? When last did South Africa terrorize anyone but it's own citizens without the direct aid of the US and European governments?




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