Katrina (rebuilding the South), 9-11, War, The Tsuami, Aids erm Aid.

Yea - there are lots of reasons why we have our debt if you take of the blinders and look.

The U.S. National debt is 64% of GDP.

Canada has the lowest debt of any G-8 nation of 38%, Japan as a debt of 170% GPD.

China has a national debt of 21.6% GDP.

The EU:

Belgium: 103%
Germany: 67.9%
France: 66.6%
Italy: 106.6%
Greece: 107.7%
Spain: 43.3%
Ireland: 27.4%
Nederland: 52.7%
Austria: 63.4%
Finland: 41.3%
Portugal: 60%
Luxembourg: 6%
U.K.: 42.4%
Sweden: 50.4%

Average EU Debt: 67%

U.S. Debt: 64%

Yea, I see everyone flocking to the EU right now.


[edit on 29-12-2006 by crisko]

Originally posted by crisko
Katrina (rebuilding the South),

The South is not really being rebuilt and the parts that are is from good old fashioned insurance money not some kind of huge government bailout. If they wanted to save money they would not have ensured the destruction of the levees or the Hurricanes existence at that strength.

9-11,

Does seven buildings and a couple of planes really cost 4 trillion dollars? The whole of Europe were rebuilt for less money than that after World War two...

War,

Based on lies and government complicity? They wanted this war and they got their war.

The Tsuami,

So how much money has in fact been given? Find me the figure....

Aids erm Aid.

Aid is nonsense as it's just a small fraction of the money being stolen from the third world that is given back for very good PR value. If you steal 100 USD worth of goods and give back 1 USD does that make you charitable?

Yea - there are lots of reasons why we have our debt if you take of the blinders and look.

The countries you named all have relatively far higher infrastructure investment policies and generally higher living standards. The money the US government has WASTED in such sums were rarely spent on social welfare or anything worth a damn.

The U.S. National debt is 64% of GDP.

Which is far far too much for a country with the natural wealth of the USA.

Canada has the lowest debt of any G-8 nation of 38%,

Considering the standards of living and infrastructure that is not bad but not great either so it's probably part of the infectious destructive policies of their next door neighbor...

Japan as a debt of 170% GPD.

Highways, airports, extensive public transportation networks and the almost overdeveloped infrastructure wont disappear in a puff of smoke when the financial markets crashes. When you spend money you don't have ( presumably other people's money) on things that you can prevent others from taking away your playing it smart and should be congratulated.

China has a national debt of 21.6% GDP.

Very little thus for a economy that will only get stronger...

The EU:

Average EU Debt: 67%

Once again go look where that money were spent and you will understand why the troubles the US faces will not be resolved any day soon and why the Euro is getting stronger during a time when the value of the dollar has declined by more than half.

U.S. Debt: 64%

Yea, I see everyone flocking to the EU right now.

Ignorance really is bliss as one simply refuses to acknowledge the tracks one stands on or the oncoming train.

Stellar

I did read your post, but I am not going to get into "quote" wars with you.

Katrina cost the United States 400 billion if not more.

AIDS / HIV assistance in Africa cost us 400 Billion

Tsunamis - this is harder to track as not only did we offer $350 million is money, we offered the logistics support of our Navy and Airforces.

Hey - thats about a trillion right there.

The World Trade Center is more than just buildings - mulit-billion dollar firms took their money and investment else where - that is a HUGE loss.

Then there were the Billions that we spent bailing out the Airline Industry, cost of cleanup, care for the victims, and rebuilding (which is just starting)

On top of two wars, and the rebuilding of an entire country.

If you think the standard of living is better in the EU you are mistaken. Ever been to Rural Texas? Welcome to Spain. Thats just to start - while I was in the Air Force I spent significant time in Spain, Germany and England.

I won't debate the above with you - as I have first hand experience, you don't and it's all a matter of opinion anyways.

Oh yea - China's dollar debt is $300 Billion, which means the GDP of that country is about 1.5T. You don't think that is going to skyrocket as they expand their Navy and improve infrastructure and subsidize foriegn investment?

Also, in regards to China - they are about to start spending on the developement of a Public Health Care System, enforce Environmental Standards etc.

Yea - that's gonna hurt.

And I go to Tokyo once a month on business - it's no different (better or worse) than NYC.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by crisko]

I offer three reasons why I oppose deficit spending which is the purposeful policy of the current Republican Administration, itself due to expire January 20, 2009.

1) The American economy is strong enough to be on a “pay as you go” basis which would have the serendipitous side effect of keeping the body politic acutely conscious of what the Administration is doing in its name.

2) It contradicts the beneficial Keynesian “pump priming” economic theory which is best applied in times of national economic depression or recession. In an economy growing faster than the inflation rate - net positive growth - pump priming is neither required nor wise. Do not fatuously waste your assets.

3) Generational tax burden shifting. Whether intended or not, the long term effect of deficit spending and its consequential borrowing is to shift the tax burden to future generations. The side effect of debt incurred by this generation is the committing of future tax revenues to interest payments. For us to obligate future tax revenues to interest payments on debt limits future administration’s flexibility and imposes unforeseeable risks we have no right or need to do.

Discounting the entitlements, interest on debt is the second largest item in our Federal budget, after Defense. Republican pro-debt policy puts undeserved strains on a future Administration’s ability to borrow which is predictable in the upcoming Social Security shortfall as the “Baby Boomer” generation retires, in the 2010-2040 time frame. Demographics suggest the Social Security Trust Fund will be back in the black after 2040. This is not true of the Medicare Trust Fund which must be dealt with separately. (Medicaid is not an entitlement.)

Conclusion. We are being fiscally irresponsible by not imposing a War Tax to cover the extra costs involved in the responses this Administration has invoked post the Nine Eleven Event.


[edit on 12/29/2006 by donwhite]

You can't impose a War Tax unless Congress declares war.

So, who should we declare War on?

posted by crisko

You can't impose a War Tax unless Congress declares war. So, who should we declare War on? [Edited by Don W]

I urged a 75 cents a gallon War Tax on gasoline and diesel for the duration of the War on Terror. It would have had the salubrious effect of keeping deficits lower and giving citizens a feeling of participation at the same time! Which is good for home front morale.

Which you are now witnessing dissipate. Americans love wars when we win, we don’t give a dam for war when we lose. Bush43 has lost the support of the people for a war badly over-sold. As LBJ lied to the people, so B43 lied to the people. When caught, that cannot be undone. It is only a matter of time now before we leave Iraq. The ISG Report offered B43 “cover” and shared responsibility but he is determined to spoil his legacy with Iraq. Explain that.

Oh, “ . . declare war?” Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11. HST was unpopular in 1950. We operated under a UN Mandate and did not really need a Congressional declaration of war. What we were engaged in was not technically a war. So we fought in Korea 3 years without a declaration of war. Lost 45,000 men. Bad precedent.

Then we engaged in Indo China, again without a declaration of war. Lost 59,000 men that time. But LBJ was unpopular and could not have obtained a declaration of war from Congress. Reagan acted in Granada. Bush41 acted in Panama. And now, Bush43 first in Afghan and then in Iraq.

Congress is at fault, because it has the power of purse. B43 may be Commander in Chief, but without money, he commands nothing. So this argument amongst citizens is really a non sequitur. For a variety of reasons, the Congress prefers it this way. Credit when wining but no blame when losing. With both Afghan and Iraq “gone south” there will be no one to claim paternity of either. That’s leadership 2006 style.



[edit on 12/29/2006 by donwhite]

don,

While I find your aspirations noble - taxing gasoline as you suggest would bring our economy to a halt.

It would fail - in some areas that is $4.00 a gallon for gas - that is not feasable.

Increasing Tax on smokes and spirits may be a good start - but even then you could only go so far.

No - you need Congress as a whole to declare War - then you would see the American War Time Economy kick in.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by crisko]

This was about China. If you want to know....China will never take over the World. They will come close, though. I have sat with Ralph Cline and other Government people from China and Canada. I have had private meetings with Chinese Officials.

The greed, which is running rampant in the USA, will be what causes their Dollar to loose value. When the world looses faith in the USD, they will sell off in such large volumes that it will bankrupt the Country.

I am a US National, living in Canada. This is a warning to people. There is nothing that can be done to change what has already started.

My only hope for us is that something new will come allong. The world will not end, just the way things are run will be done differently.

Originally posted by crisko
I did read your post, but I am not going to get into "quote" wars with you.

Probably a good decision as not getting involved ensures that you may leave not having change your mind on anything.

Katrina cost the United States 400 billion if not more.

Based on? That was some math being done as to the economic impact and i am not sure it's either accurate or has much to do with the federal government.

AIDS / HIV assistance in Africa cost us 400 Billion

And if you believe a lie so vapid you will believe anything.

Tsunamis - this is harder to track as not only did we offer $350 million is money, we offered the logistics support of our Navy and Airforces.

The cost of invading a country is not cheap and what does sending the fleet have to do with aid? Why not send the hospital ships or actual help?

Hey - thats about a trillion right there.

If's one's imagine is active enough i suppose you can make up the 8 trillion dollars inside a few hours....

The World Trade Center is more than just buildings - mulit-billion dollar firms took their money and investment else where - that is a HUGE loss.

Why would they do that? I know of at least one company that lost basically it's entire means of income ( most of it's highly experienced and educated staff in America) and still managed to keep the company afloat? What is a few multi billion dollar firms when you waste hundreds of billions so you can ensure that the oil prices double in four years?

Then there were the Billions that we spent bailing out the Airline Industry, cost of cleanup, care for the victims, and rebuilding (which is just starting)

Why bail out the airline industry? These are not things that HAVE to be done but special interest that socialism for the rich is always in place. The airline industry were in trouble long before 2001 and it was a great year for them as suddenly they could blame it all on someone or something else.

On top of two wars,

Fought for reasons not in the America's interest.

and the rebuilding of an entire country.

What happened to it?

If you think the standard of living is better in the EU you are mistaken.

Well go disagree with the international agencies that actually determine that sorta thing!

Ever been to Rural Texas? Welcome to Spain. Thats just to start - while I was in the Air Force I spent significant time in Spain, Germany and England.

Great; you have realized and seen that most countries have it's poor. What is America's excuse for having any poor at all?

[quoteI won't debate the above with you

Wont or can't?

- as I have first hand experience, you don't and it's all a matter of opinion anyways.

It's not all a matter of opinion but if that's how you like your reality it's fine and i am not going to follow you around saying otherwise...

Oh yea - China's dollar debt is $300 Billion, which means the GDP of that country is about 1.5T. You don't think that is going to skyrocket as they expand their Navy and improve infrastructure and subsidize foriegn investment?

No i do not as they are almost the model country for the worlds investment bankers. If you go look at China's foreign currency reserve holdings you will notice that they could pay back their debt on any given day and that is so with a few countries i believe.

Also, in regards to China - they are about to start spending on the developement of a Public Health Care System, enforce Environmental Standards etc.
Yea - that's gonna hurt.

They started long ago and their health sector actually declined during the 80's and 90's after being developed and operated more efficiently in 70's... There is some great instances of the Chinese government making massive changes to affect environmental stability ( the logging industry was taken apart in mere years) where it impacted most on it's citizens and they are in many instances investing in environmentally friendly technologies where developed countries have chosen not to; it's a odd way to try catch up so they must be quite sure that they will be able to control the flow of investment in the future... Remember that the Chinese apparently have the power to keep the Yuan dollar exchange rate greatly in their favor thus undermining the American economy ever faster; how do they affect such coup's against supposed superpowers? Do you realize how much the American economy could benefit if just that situation were resolved in a fair manner?

And I go to Tokyo once a month on business - it's no different (better or worse) than NYC.

But how much of the USA is as developed as NY and how much of Japan has been? You would be well advised to assume i have done research and apparently first hand experience has not left you as informed as it could have.

Stellar

I disagree with those that say there is nothing the Us can do to stop china, like we will remain stagnant, well this is historically impossible and anyone who says different does not live in america, also america is one of the prime reasons if not the sole reason china has grown so much. america also donates more to charity and relief aid than every other country combinded stellar, i suggest doing more research because the US invests heavily in other nations to fight aids and hunger, even though you belueve the US is the sole cause for hunger world wide because 'we destroy the agruiculture of other nations' etc. i also suggest taking a look at the tax system in the EU, they have the VAt tax along with income taxes and a whole other load of arcane taxes, the socialist have taken over the EU more people rely on the government and social programs to take care of themselves in a fashion that puts the US to shame. take alook at the unemployment of certain countrys in the EU and the 'more developed' infrastructure does nothing to quell this because of the current system they work under hardly allows advancment, its almost as bad as the US. hah the french actually think they have a right to work less while getting paid the same as anyone who works a 40 hour week or more anywhere else, it's this type of mentality the socialist feed off of, the ' hey the government should be taking care of me' mentality.

we will take back that infrastructure along with investment and industry as soon as some adjustments are made.

the first step is the fair tax, with this enabled we would be taking back our industry and putting a halt to outsourcing, this is hurting us bad right now. we are a very wealthy nation and certain steps such as fair tax would give people more insight on how money is being spent and if it's being spent in our best interests, the 1st step to going back to checks and balances instead of borrowing and spending which out stupid politicans do now.

if anyone argues with this then i suggest debating with greenspan and other intellectuals, greenspan is referenced alot here by people who dislike or like america, any bias comments about our industry would be exactly that, the future belongs to americans not some biased foreign opinion and we alone control our destiny not the government.



[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]

prison planet? that place is a joke man, it's almost soviet empire status. the majority of those claims have already been debunked showing misinformation and obvious manipulation of the facts on the part of prison planet.


i live in this country man, i invest pay my taxes and have fun in america( and believe me this pace is fun) its insulting to think people can pass this kind of crap on and expect peolpe to bite, I know there are alot of idiots in america who believe this, expecially on this site but it really is insulting.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]

whqat is that russian woman on about claiming the NWO ? she needs to reg on this site and become a poster!!! I will die a hard glorious death in battle to prevent exactly that and so would many other americans despite people thinking we would just succumb like we are sheeple. that woman needs to get a clue.

nothing but opinions, slanted ones at that but thats what I have always enountered with prison planet, they cherry pick their information and articles and ignore and attack actual fact. prison planet has an agenda and it's not for informing me of the truth.

[edit on 29-12-2006 by ape]

Originally posted by ape
prison planet? that place is a joke man,

Then you are far more ingorant than i ever began to imagine and you should consider the credibility you had with me exhausted.

it's almost soviet empire status.

Alex Jones provides about as much factual data about the subject matters he touches on as you will find anywhere on the net as it's not simplistic matters he deals with. To compare it to something like Soviet empire is doing nothing but exposing your own ignorance on these matters.

the majority of those claims have already been debunked showing misinformation and obvious manipulation of the facts on the part of prison planet.

Where have they been debunked and since when are you know a expert on these matters? Feel free to show what was debunked as i am MOST interested in exposing your ignorance.

i live in this country man, i invest pay my taxes and have fun in america( and believe me this pace is fun) its insulting to think people can pass this kind of crap on and expect peolpe to bite,

That's too bad as it happened and Alex is just reporting on reality. Do you think he wants to believe those things and why can he always provide you with the sources that you probably wont dispute? What does how much you enjoy being a American have to do with anything?

I know there are alot of idiots in america who believe this, expecially on this site but it really is insulting.

I think the opposite is true and sadly i can show very little of the official story about 9-11 is true. The only thing that is in fact true, as far as i can tell, is that the world trade centers are no longer standing.

Originally posted by ape
whqat is that russian woman on about claiming the NWO ? she needs to reg on this site and become a poster!!!

Have you looked at her position in the Russian government and her predictions about 9-11? Why did her predictions turn out to be inaccurate by about twenty days and why was the attack of American financial institutions just as she said?

I will die a hard glorious death in battle to prevent exactly that and so would many other americans despite people thinking we would just succumb like we are sheeple. that woman needs to get a clue.

Your doing nothing to resist it by denying the reality of the attack upon America. You apparently believe that America's declining economy is just a coincidence and not a deliberate conspiracy against the American people and your blind faith in the system will not only be your undoing but America's.

nothing but opinions, slanted ones at that but thats what I have always enountered with prison planet,

Then you have not studied it or understand nothing of the subject matter that some investigation ( or my close scrutiny) will not fix in the long run.

they cherry pick their information and articles and ignore and attack actual fact. prison planet has an agenda and it's not for informing me of the truth.

I think it's fair to say that Alex Jones has only one agenda and that is saving America from it's current rulers ( and their NWO backers) by spreading awareness resulting in mass action that hopefully leads to government by the people for the people.

From now on forward every claim you make will suffer my close scrutiny ( i don't stalk but when i read a thread and your posting there don't expect any more of the patience i have so far displayed) and i can assure you that what you have so far said has little to do with reality.

Stellar

Originally posted by ape
and if you for once think that me and other americans would just allow our lives to go to complete and utter shambles then you have exaughsted what little credability you ever had with me,

I don't care what credibility i have with a ignorant uninformed insulting person who does not dispute information provided with anything but disdain, known propaganda, or claims based entirely on unsupported but media reinforced perception; that's if he even acknowledges the presence of information contrary to what his almost religious like convictions dictates. Americans like you have already watched while your economy and strategic forces are systematically undermined so excuse me if i try point you in a direction that might actually aid you in forming a understanding of the real dangers and problems you face.

just because I agree with you on peak oil doesn't mean I agree with you on all things.

Clearly not and i suppose you think peak oil is a deliberate scam by the communist or socialist to insult Americans and take away their tank like utility vehicles?

I live in this country what is some south african

The fact that a South-African like myself is required to help inform you as to your current position must be quite embarrassing and i understand some hostility must result from having so many obvious truth shoved in your face by someone who has no business being anything else than black, stupid and generally unable to use these complicated means of communication. I am sorry to disappoint and upset your carefully constructed delusions about the rest of the world but in the rest of the world it is sometimes more important to understand what is happening in the USA than in your own country and the world's economic policies are in great part enforced by means of American sponsored violence and general state terrorism.

going to tell me about prison planet like its legit

Alex Jones is in my opinion legit and doing a good job of informing people even if he goes overboard too many times when in the presence of known scum. It's the first time i used that word on ATS but Alex has on many occasions had the guts to actually talk to people who are absolutely and unequivocally deserving of that description.

and whats going on in my country if you have zero experience in this country,

I know more about your countries actions on the world stage than you do as my country has been one of those to suffer due to it. I am not sure what you think you know but from previous experience with you i am starting to think that it is not much and not often related to reality as could be discovered from reading your own defense, intelligence and government documents. I hardly have to be American to learn to read books or use the Internet so there is no way a sane, logical or remotely reasonable argument could be made for my exclusion from discussing American affairs political, economical or whatever else.

I know prison planet and its a joke and sources

You do not know prison planet as going there and reading could only lead a sane well informed person to consider it credible and not related to 'jokes' in any way. By attacking the general accuracy or credibility of such sites are you disqualifying yourself from being taken very seriously on a site where we attempt to deal with what is real and not what is commonly believed.

like that and other is capitalism at it's finest infact because it feeds to the suspicion and mistrust for the government that already exists and gains profit,

Does it matter as we should be suspicious of all forms of government? The whole notion of patriotism is a inherent mistrust of those who can and does wield power as they might be inclined to use it against whoever is closest. Alex Jones do sell books and video's ( according to him that's just to cover the costs of investigations) but they are not expensive considering the quality ( i have watched a few short segments and a lot of work went into the production) his request that you make copies ( His copyright conditions allows for that) to distribute to friends are not in my opinion a sign of a money hungry capitalist.

you are feeding on this and you're ignorant.

I am not paying Alex for anything and i think i have shown that whatever ignorance my state of ignorance may be it does not begin to rival the depth of yours.

if you refuse to look at any counter evidence that 9/11 was not an inside job which I think is very obvious because there is plenty of information out there you only choose to ignore it and cherry pick outrageous sites like prison planet,

You are employing a site below that claims there were no planes involved in brining the towers down so you will have to decide if you hate Alex Jones more or want to defend the 9-11 official lies. I have not ignored the evidence as any investigation of counter claims , to the original government one's, require a careful study of the original claim ( there is no other way to proceed ; you can't attack claims you are not aware of) thus my being very much better informed about the official claims than anyone who actually supports them. Supporting the official claims does not require a understanding of them as there is no questioning hence no investigation. You are making quite the mockery of what investigation of reality require of a person. If you want to have a more specific discussion on the issues pertaining to 9-11 go to the forums related to such as you will quickly find yourself in trouble. If you insist i know a few things that destroys the official story but there are specialist on ATS ( i have seen some but forget the names) that could alleviate you of some of that ignorance.

it may be reputable in south africa but here in america places like that are laughed at,

Then you don't know what America is about or how much credibility Alex has established over the years even in relatively main stream reporting. Why bring where i live into this? When last did South Africa terrorize anyone but it's own citizens without the direct aid of the US and European governments?