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posted on Dec, 21 2006 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by ape
simple reforms can easily fix this, this for one would be a start

www.fairtax.org...

www.fairtax.org...

also fiscal responsibility, people are not just going to dump that dollar buddy, it would cause a global depression, to many countries have a stake in our market and the global market which reacts bad to these things, the US is already heading in a different direction in regards to leadership we just need to cut insane spending and make some adjustments, once again save the collapse speech for the ignorant, the US dollar has seen bumpy times in the past.

[edit on 21-12-2006 by ape]


Um... how would the fairtax pay back $9 trillion? Please, I would love to hear you explain... must I go through the numbers again: A family of four would have to pay $120,000... For crying out loud is that not enough for you to think twice about what you're saying?

And wouldn't the Fairtax hurt the economy if it taxes what we choose to spend? It, with no doubt, greatly reduce consumer spending...

And secondly, must I say again, we have never been $9 trillion in debt... this isn't another "bumpy time," it's a serious matter that our elected officials have to take seriously.



[edit on 21-12-2006 by k4rupt]



ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 04:14 AM
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i suggest reading the faq's and the basics before making ignorant uneducated comments, 9 trillion would easily be absorbed because the US would enter an age of unprecendented economic growth and expanison due to less limitations.

fairtax.org...

"With the penalty for working harder and producing more removed, Americans are free to keep every dollar they earn, and a new era of economic growth and job creation is unleashed. Hidden taxes are history, Americans are able to save more, and businesses invest more. Capital formation, the real source of job creation and innovation, is facilitated. Gross domestic product (GDP) increases by an estimated 10.5 percent in the first year alone. The FairTax as proposed raises the economy’s capital stock by 42 percent, its labor supply by four percent, its output by 12 percent, and its real wage rate by eight percent.

As U.S. companies and individuals repatriate, on a tax-free basis, income generated overseas, huge amounts of new capital flood into the United States. With such a huge capital supply, real interest rates remain low. Additionally, other international investors will seek to invest here to avoid taxes on income in their own countries, thereby further spurring the growth of our own economy."


america needs to make some adjustments and replacements to compete in this century, our current system is failing, americans are in control of our own destiny and I dont know if you're american but I dont need some foreigner telling me doomsday and collapse is coming to my country, not if my vote counts =(.





[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 11:58 AM
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I think it is YOU who haven't researched Fairtax enough...

Critics have stated that it WOULD NOT even give the gov't enouugh resources and would, in no doubt, ADD to our deficit... not "absorb it" as you say. So let me ask you again, HOW do you expect to pay off the $9 trillion?

It's sad really, you can put it off now, but it's going to bite us in the ass sooner or later and YOU KNOW IT.

Oh, and btw, you would have to repeal the 16th amendment for Fairtax to go through... which takes 2/3 of Congress to approve. Doesn't look like Fairtax is going to be something serious to look at anytime soon.




america needs to make some adjustments and replacements to compete in this century, our current system is failing, americans are in control of our own destiny and I dont know if you're american but I dont need some foreigner telling me doomsday and collapse is coming to my country, not if my vote counts =(.


Oh really, not if your vote counts? What are you going to do? Vote democratic, Republican? What does that matter, both parties add to our deficit... just in different ways.

And no, I'm not a foreigner telling you about a doomsday... I'm an American telling you about serious situations and problems that we have and are going to have...

Our children are going to be the ones paying off that $9 trillion deficit... how? I have no idea and neither do you... The difference between me and you is that I WANT TO DO something about that... you on the other hand, find ways to comfort yourself that America is invincible.


Common sense goes a long way... I suggest you think it through before commenting on how otheres make "ignorant comments."





[edit on 22-12-2006 by k4rupt]


ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 02:13 PM
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whats funny is you have a minority who are against this when all research by the nations top 70 economist say otherwise, you're one ignorant human being taking the word of the minority when the benefits are clearly obvious. I think it's very obvious you have an agenda, are you a tax payer or just some punk college kid living off of his parents? because you sure do sound like one. I suggest you reevaluate your position.

" With the penalty for working harder and producing more removed, Americans are free to keep every dollar they earn, and a new era of economic growth and job creation is unleashed. Hidden taxes are history, Americans are able to save more, and businesses invest more. Capital formation, the real source of job creation and innovation, is facilitated. Gross domestic product (GDP) increases by an estimated 10.5 percent in the first year alone. The FairTax as proposed raises the economy’s capital stock by 42 percent, its labor supply by four percent, its output by 12 percent, and its real wage rate by eight percent. "

"As U.S. companies and individuals repatriate, on a tax-free basis, income generated overseas, huge amounts of new capital flood into the United States. With such a huge capital supply, real interest rates remain low. Additionally, other international investors will seek to invest here to avoid taxes on income in their own countries, thereby further spurring the growth of our own economy."

do u even comprehend what this means? 9 trillion dollars is a figure that can be slashed, a figure like that would be absorbed in less than a decade if not a little longer, the nations top 70 economist say this is the right path so continue regurgitating 9 trillion dollars and dismissing the majority for the minority if it makes you feel better. it's up to the people to press this issue because congress and the senate wont do it for us. basically if the people in power refuse to support this they wont be in office for the next election, if they want to pay that price so be it, someone who will support it will take their place.


honestly you cherry picking information that suits your opinion without doing the proper research tells me alot, you need a reality check.

[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 02:34 PM
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Haha, yes, personal insults make your argument MUCh, MUCH stronger...



I think it's very obvious you have an agenda


You're right, I do have an agenda: SOLVE the deficit crisis. I, unlike you, would like to do something about our insane deficit instead of IGNORING IT and using arguments that HAVE NOTHING to actually do with fixing our deficit for the sole purpose of making yourself feel better.

First of all, Fairtax has one crucial flaw - it doesn't generate enough revenue for gov't programs and spending. Everyone acknowledges THIS... even your so called "majority."

It would, in no doubt, ADD to our deficit. "Absorb $9 trillion" YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDIN ME RIGHT? Seriously, I don't think you have the slightest idea... so for the third time I will bring up the numbers again: Every single person in the United States would have to pay up $30,000 to pay back our deficit... it would be $120,000 for a family of four. How can this just be "absorbed."

Fairtax doesn't even generate enough revenue to sustain current gov't programs and spending... how can it possibly ABSORB the damn deficit?



Please thoroughly GO THROUGH your research before making ignorant comments that in no way SOLVES the problem that I proposed... so again, must I ask, HOW are we giong to pay back $9 trillion?



honestly you cherry picking information that suits your opinion without doing the proper research tells me alot, you need a reality check.


ME CHERRY PICKING?
YOUR KIDDIN ME RIGHT? You're the one who blatantly IGNORED the problem with fairtax: inability to sustain gov't spending... let alone start paying the deficit... and you dare say I cherry pick?


YOU BASICALLY IGNORED MY WHOLE ARGUMENT!





[edit on 22-12-2006 by k4rupt]



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by ape
well why dont you look up classic tank battles of the middle east and the air wars that have been fought, the dominance of US fighter planes against the migs on the asian scene.


Dominance of doctrine, training and numerous other things... Remember that the USSR rarely sold what it could not employ itself...


did israel not dominate its wars with american technology? is israel not the most powerfull country in that region? with an american tech airforce.


Israeli also dominated the earlier wars when it fought with rag tag armaments put together from various nations and still managed to beat forces with generally superior equipment... The Israeli's have long since proved what they are capable with in spite of all their equipment problems.


I know what you're going to say, you're going to say that doesn't prove which tech is superior because it's all about who operates it, well russian pilots got owned in mig alley which is the only engagment the US had with russian pilots.

take a look at history before having me back all of this known information up.


I have ape! If you go look at the Mig alley the Russians were ahead in kill ratio's even in pure fighter losses for a long time. At the end it can be argued that the US lost fewer pure fighters but considering that the Russians were going after the strike aircraft as first priority this should be expected imo.


and k4rupt, the dollar has taken hits before and we have dealt with defecits before, I agree we need to check our spending but we are hardly bankrupt, the US economy is the largest in the world and puts everyone to shame, our GDP owns everyone.


GDP is a completely meaningless number that really means nothing these days! Without the industrial based of old the US can not recover ( and will not ) from the current crisis and the economic situation will just get worse and worse. What you should look at is federal revenue as that is in the end all that matters...


we have massive influence in world trade and are a beacon of light for investors.


beacon of light for investors? How does one explain the rise of the Asian tigers, Japan, Thailand, South Korea, Taiwan, China and now even Eastern European and South American economies? The Us is not getting investment where it matters.


if the US economy collapses MANY LARGE countries such as china would be halted in progression.


Evidence? The Us is more dependent on China than China is on the USA.


you gonna give me the euro speech? please take a look at the EU they cant even agree to a constitution along with all the history of europe and the world wars there are massive differences within that bloc, not to mention all of the capitals and political differences what makes you think this bloc will remain stable?


Because some very influential forces are driving those blocks together and trying to ensure relative stability... These same forces are actively working to undermine what is left of American strength.


can you read the future are you a gypsy??? the euro is new sauce to the world scene and has not proven jack crap, first of all if you want your currency to be dominate you have to back that currency with stability, something the EU cannot guarentee, the US has projected it's military might and influence all around the globe,


The US military can do nothing but intimidate third world nations and that is all it's been doing for many decades now. The Euro is a stronger and more stable currency and that will not change any time soon....


we have shown our allies we will protect them and their interests along with investment which is why so many invest in the US and the US dollar, because it's backed with the stability of the country which is united ( as americans, not demo or conserv ) something the EU is not.


The US economy has not been stable since the early 70's and the decline has been very nearly persistent.


save your US collapse speech for the idiots who dont know about economics. the US is not going anywhere along with the dollar, the dollar has proven it's worth along with the strongest military in the world to back that worth and to protect investment and economic progression for not only the US but its allies and the EU has not.


Sorry but everything i have read suggest a vast conspiracy to undermine what is left of American economic power and that what is left is simply useful for policing the world in the interest of powerful European powers. The US has not been indepedent in the true sense for a long time.


Is the eu going to mobilise its forces to quell aggressive actions taken against one of it's allies that could possibly disrupt the flow of oil, goods and econmic stability?


No, because it knows that the US is there to do all the dirty bleeding work for it. That seems to to be it's sole purpose these days.


im sorry the EU has yet to project that kind of power and even more has yet to project the will to use this power. remember europeans dont like war, so what makes you think they are all of a sudden geared up to protect not only it's interest but its allies interests?


What do you mean European leaders do not like war? European (caucasian)leaders are the original warmongers!


they are not, and it would be a political mess within the EU, infact I can see a major conflict breaking up the EU based on massive differences on how to react to it. now your telling me investors overlook all of this and just think short term? hmm im not even a professional investor yet I have the common sense to realise this.


The investors that invest in the US are mostly old European banking families ( one of them is supposedly worth 300 trillion USD ) so they pretty much invest in which countries are willing to help bring about the changes they want the fastest and most effectively. It seems to me that the US has become nothing but a mercenary nation that serves it's paymasters interest despite the best efforts of average Americans.

Stellar



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by ape
US tech owns russian tech and this has been proven on the battlefield both in the air and on the ground plus the US has the money.


Does that prove that the US will compromise more of their technology during arms sales or that American arms are generally superior in terms of resources employed? Why was it in the end Russian technology that took apart the German army with American and British technology barely making progress on their small stretch of the European front lines? I'm just not so sure what you considered proven has in fact been proven as the countries that employs American technology to win their wars have so far almost always been better trained, better led or simply deployed overwhelming strength in the form of the US army sometimes leading NATO forces. What i know about history shows to me at least that for the same resource expenditure you will probably get more initiative for your money by buying Russian weaponry...


IMO russia is not even a player anymore, their former satellite states resent them


Really? Based on? Their not a player yet retains the world's largest nuclear arsenal as well as the world best equipped conventional armed forces?


and their influence and are forming relationships with nato and the EU. you can only go so far when all you export is oil,gas,vodka,


Actually they have formed great alliances with the rising stars of the East as well as reaching a settlement with Japan and many South American nations to say nothing of their allies in North Africa and the ME. If you want to see a isolated nation look at the USA...


crappy weaponry and ZERO INFLUENCE, especially when you cant even get a grip on domestic issues.


I don't think much research was involved in any of these statements...


china has alot of internal issues they gotta deal with, semperfoo posted a great post that had alot of good information on it about china and how far they actually have to go which is a long ways, unfortunatly the moderator trashed the thread and semper would have to repost. doubtful they will gain on the US in the future, semper I hope you read this thread.


I can see how a moderator would trash anything Semperfoo has to say about China... China has long since surpassed the USA as they partnered with a nation, in the former USSR and then Russia, who's political institution is apparently interested in national survival, unlike some other 'superpowers' that have sold out their people for decades running.

Stellar



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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posted by StellarX

Israel dominated the earlier wars when it fought with rag tag armaments put together from various nations and still managed to beat forces with generally superior equipment . . [Edited by Don W]



I recall newsreels showing the various Israeli militias waging war on the Jordan’s Desert Legion, reputedly the best Arab force, in the 1948-49 War of Independence. After a close struggle, we know the Jewish forces gained the victory. Which I guess you could say is where it all began.
Coming out of World War Two victorious, the Western powers were feeling great remorse over the Holocaust and feeling they shared some of the blame or responsibly for that epic tragedy.

The British mandate from the League of Nations, Palestine, was best know for “growing” rocks. So, “Hey, lets give those Jewish survivors about half of that place.” And here we are, 2006, trying to understand why what we - the West - did then was wrong. And you know great powers are not inclined to admit mistakes. All the more so of leaders.



GDP is a completely meaningless number that means nothing these days! Without the industrial base of old, the US can not recover from the current crisis and the economic situation will just get worse and worse. The US economy has not been stable since the early 70's and the decline has been very nearly persistent.



I am a long time critic of the late 1970s Malaquella Plan along the US-Mexican border that is the starting point for globalization as far as the United States is concerned. A 100 miles wide zone in north of Mexico was planned to have American factories move there and the goods produced could enter the US in pre-approved trucks, going direct to their destinations all around the US. Presumably Mexican nationals would take jobs in the Zone and not cross over into the US. There were 3 million undocumented workers here in the 1970s, now there are more than 11 million, so I think it obvious that plan did not work. But what it did was to show American capital they could move out of the US, and enhance profits. Because the US has always advocated free trade - but rarely practiced it - the scene was set for the removal of 30,000,000 blue collar jobs out of the US and into Asia primarily. Globalization. Those good jobs were the foundation of the middle class. White collar workers pay had to be equal or nearly so, to the factory workers. No factory, no middle class. As I wrote elsewhere, union busting on a cosmic scale.



The investors that invest in the US are mostly old European banking families (one of them is supposedly worth 300 trillion USD) so they pretty much invest in which countries are willing to help bring about the changes they want the fastest and most effectively. It seems to me that the US has become nothing but a mercenary nation that serves it's paymasters interest despite the best efforts of average Americans. Stellar



I have to concur with all you say above, SX, but I have one question about the supposed worth of one family. In 2000, the WSJournal reported the total worth of the United States, if you bought everything, was $45 trillion. On that basis, and my assumption the US has about 20% of the world’s wealth, which would make the entire planet “worth” about $225 trillion. Now you and I may have the problem about American trillions and English trillions. My trillion is 10 to the12th. Which is the same as an English billion, I believe. Although dubious, I could more easily accept $300 billion USD as the worth of a family.


[edit on 12/22/2006 by donwhite]


ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 07:39 PM
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like i said save the decline speech, nobody has yet to oppose fair tax ASIDE FROM THE GLOBALIST, it is infact the one thing that would stop globalisation and bring competiton back to the US, this has been researched fro 10 years ku4upt by leaders in economics from harvard and other prestegious universities. 70 of this nations top economists suggest america replace our current tax code with fair tax. why would european investors pull out of american investment when they would be subject to higher interest rates back in europe? makes no sense, not only that china is the only one benefiting from trade with the US aside from the US corporations, if this were to stop you would see a halt in chinese progression, the EU wont let china undermine it's curreny like it's doing to the US. AMERICA is the sole reason why china is progressing so much, if they were to dump the dollar well then they would be screwed. www.washingtonpost.com...

the answer for the US is the fair tax policy,you dont need to increase federal funding that insane, that only halts economic progress by taking away from the people who contribute to the growth. the federal revenue will not increase or decrease while the economic base industrial etc would sky rocket, this would make america competitve once more and halt the globalist agenda. dont count on US senetors to get this passed it's up to the american people, if the current memebers of the house and senate wont go along with this then they will not get re elected, it is up the the AMERICAN people, I really dislike citizens form other countries ( even how cool they might be) telling me how my country is going to collapse and that there is no hope, there is hope and fair tax is a start for that hope.

I will take the advice of the nations top 70 economist who have sent a letter to the president advising him to consider this replacement, im sure he used it to wipe his ass but regardless this bill will pass. I will take the economists words anyday over the doom and gloomers. ;-)


also showcasing nuclear weapons hardly makes one a superpower stellar IMO, you need to be able to influence with a strong society and culture along with a government for the people.


I love how kurupt says it would not be able to sustaine current spending and government programs, well first of all that IS WHAT LEAD TO THE DEFECIT, part of my point about making adjustments was to cut wastefull spending which is indeed that, if you think every penny goes to something good for the community then you're ignorant and really out of touch, can you say gray davis?

consumption tax is more stable than income tax.




[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]


ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 08:03 PM
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What economic changes come at the retail level with the FairTax?

"Our baby boom generation has been trained to spend money before inflation eats it up or savings is taxed away. This group, for good or evil, will likely spend their initial pay raise. Others will recognize the advantages of savings and investment. There will be a whole new round of home refinancings. There will likely be a lot of interest in the actual cost of the federal government when consumers see their most recent contribution at the bottom of each retail receipt.

Since the FairTax plan is revenue neutral, the same amount of resources is extracted from the economy as is extracted under current law. These funds are, however, extracted in a less economically damaging way. Every known economic projection shows the economy doing better, often much better, under the FairTax.
Because the economy grows, is more efficient and more productive, that means investment, wages, and consumption are higher than they are under the income tax.

interest rates :

"First, interest rates drop quickly by approximately one-quarter. Interest rates include compensation to the lender for the tax that they must pay on interest you pay them. That is why taxable bonds bear a higher interest rate than tax-exempt bonds. When the tax on interest is removed, interest rates will drop toward today’s tax-exempt rate.

Second, under the current system, savings and investments are taxed. Under the FairTax, savings and investments are not taxed at all. As Americans save more money, the pool of funds in lending institutions grows. When you add to this the flood of capital currently trapped offshore, we realize a huge increase in the pool of capital, thereby causing the cost of borrowing funds to drop."

How does this affect U.S. competitiveness in foreign trade?

"Because the FairTax is automatically border adjustable, the 17 percent competitive advantage, on average, of foreign producers is eliminated, immediately boosting U.S. competitiveness overseas. American companies doing business internationally are able to sell their goods at lower prices but at similar margins, and this brings jobs to America.

In addition, U.S. companies with investments or plants abroad bring home overseas profits without the penalty of paying income taxes, thus resulting in more U.S. capital investment.

How does this affect U.S. competitiveness in foreign trade?

And at last, imports and domestic production are on a level playing field. Exported goods are not subject to the FairTax, since they are not consumed in the U.S.; but imported goods sold in the U.S. are subject to the FairTax because these products are consumed domestically. "

fairtax.org...

i think it's obvious people are not reading my links and kurupt I have come to the conclusion that you are apart of the globalist agenda, LABEL THIS MAN !.



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[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]


ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 09:29 PM
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stellar the f-86 sabre had a 7-1 kill ratio on the mig 15, im not sure what sources you're referencing.


Does the FairTax improve compliance and reduce evasion when compared to the current income tax?

"The old aphorism that nothing is certain except death and taxes should be modified to include tax evasion. Tax evasion is chronic under any system so complex as to be incomprehensible. As a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), tax evasion in 2001 is beyond 2.6 percent, compared to 1.6 percent in 1991. This represents over 16 percent of taxes due. Almost 40 percent of the public, according to the IRS, is out of compliance with the present tax system, mostly unintentionally due to the enormous complexity of the present system. These IRS figures do not include taxes lost on illegal sources of income with a criminal economy estimated at a trillion dollars. All this, despite a major enforcement effort and assessment of tens of millions of civil penalties on American taxpayers in an effort to force compliance with the tax system. Disrespect for the tax system and the law has reached dangerous levels and makes a system based on taxpayer self-assessment less and less viable.

The FairTax reduces rather than increases the problem of tax evasion. The increased fairness, transparency, and legitimacy of the system induces more compliance. The roughly 90-percent reduction in filers enables tax administrators more narrowly and effectively to address noncompliance and increases the likelihood of tax evasion discovery. The relative simplicity of the FairTax promotes compliance. Businesses need answer only one question to determine the tax due: How much was sold to consumers? Finally, because tax rates decrease, tax evasion is less profitable; and because of the dramatic reduction in the number of tax filers, tax evaders are more easily monitored and caught under the FairTax system."

What assumptions have been made about government spending?

"The FairTax plan is devised to be revenue neutral for the first year of operation. It raises the same amount of revenue as is raised by current law. After the first year, revenue is expected to rise because of the growth generated by this plan. At that time the American people, the Congress, and the president will have to decide whether to lower the tax rate or to spend the additional revenue. "

How does the FairTax affect government spending?

"The public must remain vigilant to ensure that the economic gains caused by the FairTax benefit the people and the causes they deem worthy. However, it is easier to determine if your elected representatives are acting in your best interest. Legislators can more easily be held accountable for their decisions. For the first time in decades, it is simple to see whether a politician is advocating an increase in taxes or a restraint on government spending as the economic pie gets bigger. This is not the case today. "





[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 09:58 PM
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You are hillarious...

So, instead of giving me crap info that has nothing to do with the question I asked, just gimme a decent response.

Even with all the POSSIBLE positive aspects that come with Fairtax, Fairtax CANNOT generate enough revenue to sustain all the various federal programs and spending - THAT is the MAJOR flaw of Fairtax... so HOW in God's name is it going to "absorb" $9 trillion of debt.

It may boost the economy or whatever, but it SOLVES NOTHING and has NOTHING to do with our insane deficit... if anything, it WILL ADD to our deficit.

Sigh... again you COMPLETELY ignore my argument...

I highly suggest you read more on Fairtax.. and no, please don't just use one source (fairtax.org)


Oh, and one more thing. You are basing our whole $9 trillion deficit problem on something that NOT ONLY obviously ADDS to our deficit, but something that PROBABLY would not even be implemented...


You're a joke right? Please tell me your yankin my tail.

[edit on 22-12-2006 by k4rupt]


ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 10:12 PM
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ok, you're a globalist with a serious reading comprehension problem. of course we need to check spending the fair tax would bring in a more stable revenue for the government without restricting econmic growth, as it starts generating more income the feds start getting more revenue unless it's adjusted to be lower, skys the limit. you are a complete moron.

"The FairTax plan is devised to be revenue neutral for the first year of operation. It raises the same amount of revenue as is raised by current law. After the first year, revenue is expected to rise because of the growth generated by this plan. At that time the American people, the Congress, and the president will have to decide whether to lower the tax rate or to spend the additional revenue. "


How does the income tax affect our economy?

How does dragging an anchor affect the speed of a ship? Our entire economy is not dependent on the income tax. Instead our economy is held back by the income tax. There was no income tax for the first 124 years of our history – that’s more than half the time we have existed as a nation. A study by the Government Accountability Office estimated that the federal tax system imposed efficiency costs on the U.S. economy of two to five percent of GDP. Under the FairTax, within ten years average Americans will be at least 10 percent and probably 15 percent better off than they would be under the current system. That translates to an increase of $3,000 to $4,500 per household, per year.




How does this plan affect compliance costs?

It is estimated that Americans spend at least $265 billion a year to comply with the tax code – nearly $900 for every man, woman, and child in America. That is three years' worth of spending on the Iraq war. Billions of dollars in compliance costs are wasted each year and we have nothing of value to show for this expenditure – not one single productive service or product is added to our nation’s wealth. It is estimated that the FairTax dramatically cuts such compliance costs, perhaps as much as 95 percent.

70 top economists advise we go this route, what do u suggest we raise taxes for pay for medicare and social security? do you realise how much of a problem this will drag us in? if you're suggesting we raise raxes then you are a complete fool whonis uneducated, our current system will not sustain itself and raising taxes and hampering what growth we do have right now is not the answer, I say take the leash off of the american worker and industry and let us dominate the markets paying off whatever debt the feds have accumulated seeing our economic growth would be unprecidented especially in this day and age with all of our technology and innovation, foreign investors would not only keep whatever stakes they have in this country they would bring in more and more and more due to lower interest rates. we need to check our spending and make some replacements and the US will be ok.

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posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 10:32 PM
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My God you are HILLARIOUS.

Everything you say about Fairtax is biased... where do you get all your information? Fairtax.org?
If it was so AWESOME, with no negative points, then Fairtax would be a much stronger proposal than it already is, am I right?

I suggest you wander from "researching" on only ONE source and actually read different opinions.

Fairtax: A trojan horse for America?


Secondly, again, you make me LAUGH HYSTERICALLY. You are basing our ENTIRE $9 trillion deficit situation argument on something that WILL NOT EVEN GET PAST CONGRESS.


Do you not see the fallacy in your argument? HAH!

I suggest you sit down and seriously examine HOW we can fix our problem, rather than dwell into something that is not yet even being seriously debated in Congress and something that probably wouldn't even get enough votes to amend the Constitution.

Any other tries ape? Or do you believe a flying spaghetti monster will save us from our debt?... But hey, whatever makes us feel better right?
Remember, America is invincible! Our economy will never collapse!


[edit on 22-12-2006 by k4rupt]


ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 10:38 PM
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this has been researched for 10 years and 70 of the countrys top economists have already informed the president so he is welll aware unless of course he flushed it down the toilet. I will take these peoples word over some ignorant ATS poster, how old are you? do you pay taxes? do invest in a 401k plan? are you investing in savings bonds? I am so this is my best interest buddy I dont need you lecturing me from your basement.

this will happen, take a look at the chart on the website, you will see who supports it and who doesn't in the house, the research has already been done dont call it bias as you're not educated enough to make a comment like that.

IT IS UP TO THE AMERICAN CITIZEN TO GET THIS PASSED, WE CONTROL OUR DESTINY AND THOSE WHO SERVE US ARE CIVILIANS, THE MORE THIS IS KNOWN THE MORE GOOD WILL COME, foolish globalist scum with your agenda.

H&R block has already approached this organization and said " dont make us out to be the bad guys we are ready to reform when this eventually goes through". so please you're misinformed buddy deny ignorance, god I love this website, pure gold.

[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 10:51 PM
link   
God you're pathetic. Enough with the personal attacks. It is COMPLETELY against the policies of this site, against good, nay: NORMAL behavior, and basically shows how little and small you are.

Secondly, great argument... all you do is read from ONE SOURCE and think that Fairtax is a completely perfect system.

Pathetic... any good "denyer of ignorance" would, in no doubt, read more than one source in any case. You, however, would rather dwell in your uninformed bubble of ignorance.

Here's the bottom line: Fairtax is not exactly what you picture it would be, it would not get the 2/3s required to amend the constitution anytime soon, if it all.

But hey, I'm not ARGUING against Fairtax. I find it ludicrous that you think Fairtax would just absorb $9trillion of debt.

Even if Fairtax were to somehow pass, and it turns out to be exactly what you believe, it still would never pay off $9 trillion.


You're wandering in circles, and adding personal attacks which are a great offense to not only this site, but to the whole point of denying ignorance. You sir, are awesome.




ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 10:54 PM
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"Is the 23% FairTax revenue-neutral rate higher or lower when compared to income and Social Security taxes people pay today?


"Most people are paying that much or more today – much of it is just hidden from view. The income tax bracket most people fall into is 15 percent, and all wage earners pay 7.65 percent in payroll taxes. That’s 23 percent right there, without taking into account the 7.65 percent employer matching! On top of that, you have to add in the business taxes and associated compliance costs passed on to consumers in higher prices.

Effective tax rates vs. stated tax rates
Because the 23-percent FairTax rate of $0.23 on every dollar spent is not imposed on necessities, an individual spending $30,000 pays an effective tax rate of only 15.5 percent, not 23 percent. That same individual will pay 17.3 percent of his or her income to federal taxes under current law.


this challenges your misinformation website that says food shouldnt be taxed and why websites like those are dismissed.

"Why not just exempt food and medicine from the tax? Wouldn’t that be fair and simple?

Exempting items by category is neither fair nor simple. Respected economists have shown that the wealthy spend much more on unprepared food, clothing, housing, and medical care than do the poor. Exempting these goods, as many state sales taxes do, actually gives the wealthy a disproportionate benefit. Also, today these purchases are not exempted from federal taxation. The purchase of food, clothing, and medical services is made from after-income-tax and after-payroll-tax dollars, while their purchase price hides the cost of corporate taxes and private sector compliance costs.

Finally, exempting one product or service, but not another, opens the door to the army of lobbyists and special interest groups that plague and distort our taxation system today. Those who have the money will send lobbyists to Washington to obtain special tax breaks in their own self-interest. This process causes unfair and inefficient distortions in our economy and must be stopped. "

owned your foolish website, try again buddy people like you posting misinformation is like meat being thrown out to the dogs to eat.

im sure the mods will understand why i responded to you as I have, you insult me and talk to me in a condescending manner so if you cant take it dont dish it. I also dont need to go digging for additonal sources as if you would actually read the website you will see all of the sources who support them. this has been thought out man, you have no ground for argument.

whats funny is i have asked twice if you pay taxes and are investing in this country, if you have a 401k pland and savings bond investments, all of which you are dodging, do you even work or are you some college kid lecturing me from his dorm room, dont start playing the victim you're talking to a working man here and I will not be lectured by someone who wont clarify his current position and what ground he has to stand on and what he contributes to this country, I am a tax payer I pay my dues and I work for a living and I invest in my country, fair tax is in my best interest and my countries as it would solve our solcial security and medicare problems and increase revenue to slash the defecit.

[edit on 22-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 10:58 PM
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bwahhahahhaha


"owned your foolish website."

And you question MY AGE?


Firstly, your basing your whole "solution" for our 9 trillion dollar deficit on SPECULATION. On a policy that WOULD NEVER get 2/3s approval in Congress it needs.

And even, somhow miraculously, does pass... it has no clear solution in paying off $9 TRILLION.

Try again buddy... Stop repeating about how "great" this is... because it is so far from reality.

Give me something that actually works.




im sure the mods will understand why i responded to you as I have, you insult me and talk to me in a condescending manner so if you cant take it dont dish it.


You are joking me right? If you go back, you'd see that YOU were the first to personally insult me. I refrained from doing so MANy, MANY times, whereas you continued to do so... pathetic.


[edit on 22-12-2006 by k4rupt]


ape

posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 11:04 PM
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dont lecture me if you refuse to clarify if you invest in this country and if you work and pay taxes, or if your some college dorm kid not contributing to jack crap complaining living off of his parents who would love to see fair tax? maybe help ease your college tuition payments as you obviously put them in debt, unless your insanly rich and dont even care or god forbid a highschool or middle school student.

you have zero clue what you're talking about.



posted on Dec, 22 2006 @ 11:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by ape
dont lecture me if you refuse to clarify if you invest in this country and if you work and pay taxes, or if your some college dorm kid not contributing to jack crap complaining living off of his parents who would love to see fair tax? maybe help ease your college tuition payments as you obviously put them in debt, unless your insanly rich and dont even care or god forbid a highschool or middle school student.

you have zero clue what you're talking about.


I am appalled at these kinds of responses from a so-called "denyer of ignorance."

Firstly, I don't have to clarify ANYTHING about my personal life to some raving lunatic online. My personal life has NOTIHNG to do with what I'm arguing about. I don't care if Fairtax passes or not, I care about our DEFICIT. I can't even believe you are asking this... this is a first here on ATS.

Fairtax, in no way, can HELP our deficit... nay our $9 trillion deficit.

The way you make it sound: "absorb $9 trillion" is completely IGNORANT and is a plainly uneducated remark.


Again, Fairtax even passing through Congress - LARGE SPECULATION. IT WILL NOT GET THE 2/3 REQUIRED TO PASS THROUGH CONGRESS.


Hit me with another one buddy, your attempts are getting more pathetic....

[edit on 22-12-2006 by k4rupt]





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