Dad Convicted for Circumcision on Daughter

PieMan, it is also called "female castration" in some places. In females, the clitoris is made of the same tissue and responds just like, a male penis. It means she cannot enjoy sex at all, ever, and while she's sewn shut she certainly cannot have children or even have sex.

And, especially, if her genitals have become infected by such a procedure, often the woman will not be able to have children.

You can't really compare a clitoris to castration. A woman can still procreate with or without a clitoris wheras a man would no longer be able to procreate if his scrotum was severed.

Yoinks pie man I never would have expected you to make that argument.

FOr me at least it's not about procreation it's about taking away the woman's pleasure of sex under the guise of religious practice.

This is only done so that the woman enjoys the act as little as possible which ties back into the whole purity thing. ANd in my opinion to keep a male dominated society dominant, it's not like the man will enjoy it less...which is really just selfish among other things.

Not that I'm a big believer in the all mighty but if God didn't want us to enjoy sex he/she/it/they would not have made it feel so good.

And if we are gods creatures then those lovely sensations were put there by god and if anything the pleasures of sex (from a godly viewpoint) must have been intended to be enjoyed by the woman more than the man, hence multiple orgasms.

Why would god do this? Why would god want women to enjoy sex so much, well it's simple.

It's the all mighty's way of saying "sorry but in about nine months you're going to have to push a watermelon out of that thing, we've looked at the blueprints and there's just no other way around it so you should really enjoy this because believe me sister you're gonna pay for it later...our apoligies, the management"

To take away the joy of sex under the cover of faith in the end is a crime against god.

If we are god's creatures then all the bits of us, including the naughty ones are there for a reason our eyes work a certain way for a reason etc.

Religion can't give god credit for the good stuff and blame the devil for the bad.

But again I'm not religious, for me it's about not giving the person a choice and again just because it's an accepted part of the culture in south africa doesn't mean it should be accepted in the states.

Beating your wife for cheating on you even killing her is accepted in some cultures still to do this day, and I don't think any of us thinks that's a good idea.

So for me it's not procreation that's the point but the control issues and again just the thought of mucking around with somebodies "hi there pally" without their consent is just wrong, plain wrong and uber cringe wrothy.

IMO or course,

Spiderj

This is all about religion and traditions this has nothing to do with a womans enjoyment of sex. I would probably bet that these people are not up on the pleasures of sex like we are here in the USA and other civilized nations. I was speaking in their POV that this idea of circumcision is not the same as castration. Their concern is about the womans integrity to the point of when they are married and that their virginity is kept intact. Like I said I don't agree with it, as I appreciate a woman that responds during sex. Im not attracted to cold fishies which is basiclly what you would have without a clitoris.

Your points are good (as usual) pie man but I would argue that this is what they say. they say it is simply about religion, but it is not.

There are other ways to protect somebodies chastity and purity that don't involve mutilating your daughters privates.

A man doesn't have to know how to please his partner in order to know that sex feels good.

The man knows that if the woman enjoys sex she may actually want to have it and may in fact find a man who satisfies her more than her husband or mate, this of course would bring shame on the married male and could have dire consequences on his status within the society.

Also a woman who enjoys sex and is allowed to enjoy sex may begin to assert herself in other aspects of society like wanting a say in government or heaven forbid stating her own opinion.

The removal of the clitoris is societal control couched in religous pr.

IMO of course, but I really don't think it's simply religious.

Spiderj

Men who are lessening this crime against humanity: picture the head of your penis being snipped off with shears. You've still got the shaft of the penis for sexual relations and so forth. What's the big deal?

It is a comment on their religion and on them, that they allow this. Where's their version of Martin Luther to nail a schism to the door of the Mosque and end this horror? I guess they're all gutless punks.

Oh My God!! What is wrong with people. I think I have a perminent cringe on my face, and yes....I'm feeling a bit ill now. Stories like this really put a dark spot in my day.... All my warm fuzzie feelings are gone

Originally posted by jensouth31
Oh My God!! What is wrong with people... All my warm fuzzie feelings are gone

Yep Jen, it's all levels of creepy. I prescribe two shots of tequila and then (if you have it in your collection) pop in a copy of The Princess Bride, that'll bring the warm fuzzies back.

However do not watch the Serpent and The rainbow, there's a scene in there garunteed to take em away again.

Spiderj

Originally posted by Spiderj

Originally posted by jensouth31
Oh My God!! What is wrong with people... All my warm fuzzie feelings are gone

Yep Jen, it's all levels of creepy. I prescribe two shots of tequila and then (if you have it in your collection) pop in a copy of The Princess Bride, that'll bring the warm fuzzies back.

Spiderj

Took 2 shotsof tequila .....cough, cough, choke.....there..my warm fuzzies are coming back.
Thanks for the solution to my problem Spiderj

I'm a happy, go lucky girl..and I don't like it when bad stuff rains on my parade

Thanks for the solution to my problem Spiderj

No problemo, I am a trained proffesional after all.

Heck, I'm gonna have a few tonight and I wouldn't prescribe it for you if I didn't take it myself.

Dr. Spider

People seam to be forgetting (or simply don't know) that this is common practice in a LOT of African countries, the girls parents very likely never saw anything wrong with it.

Doesn't make it right though.

You can read a bit more about it on the wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org...

Removing any part of a human is barbaric and inhumane, how does the law in the US with regard to the circumsision of young Jewish boys, is this practice illegal?

ever notice many countries overseas still reguard women as " pets " or " Property " any place that still thinks this as its majority vote needs to be Leveled in many cases... yer not fit to be human if you cant reguard others as human......

Originally posted by Spiderj
You know not everything written in scripture is good.

Some judaic and christrian law is barbaric and not practiced any longer.

This isn't, btw, an islamic issue.

Female Genital Mutilation is practiced by Muslims and Christians, its not a religious thing, its cultural, its really only practiced in north-east africa. I don't even think its an arab cultural issue, its more of a native african practice.

Now a maori who comes of age getting their body tattoo, which by the way looks incredibly painful, I'm fine with that as it's purely by choice and holds great spiritual signifigance for the culture.

The women that this is done to, they almost allways support it. This is part of hte problem, they're not being forced to have it done, not in the usual sense. Its cultural brainwashing, really, just like the tatooing amoung the maori, or sub-incision amoung the aborigines of australia.

Also a woman who enjoys sex and is allowed to enjoy sex may begin to assert herself in other aspects of society like wanting a say in government or heaven forbid stating her own opinion.

?
Why?

This is a tradition amoung them, its a bizzare tradition that we find unacceptable.
Its a little odd, because, as digusting as it is, these people, they are 'normal' people over there, its just what you do as a member of that society. Here we have a guy, in one political border, he's thrown into jail, in another, he's a regular joe. And if a person that had done this in, say, the sudan, and then came here, we wouldn't say 'he's a sicko', and he'd be a regular member of our society.

BUt, again, I think that this is too sick to bear anyway, but its odd, because this is a guy who is, basically, doing what he's 'supposed to do', he's doing 'whats normal' for him, and now he's in jail. I agree, 100% that he should be there, and his wife, but they're got to be thought of as somewhat different from the other people in that jail.

chissler
Nygdan, your knowledge on cultures and rituals seems to be second to none on this site.

Lets be realistic, Byrd is probably the person with the most experience and knowledge on these topics, I am far behind.
Besides, I make this stuff up. Sub-Incision? Come on!

I'm interested if your familiar with an African culture that sew the vagina of young women?

I've only ever heard of it in associated with genital mutilation, or at least amoung the cultural groups that practice FGM.

When I read this article, that case study immediately came to mind.

It might be the same thing infact.

thepieman
He put his daughters life in jeopardy by doing this himself unless he's a doctor of some sort.

Its not done by doctors in the sudan. Similar to sub-incision, where a sharp stick is sufficient, broken glass can be used for female genital mutilation (of course, glass can be made extremely sharp, but its besides the point, we're not talking about surgical instruments). This practice is traditional, and its often carried out via traditional methods. Doctors, I am sure, do perform it, but I don't think thats even the norm.

You can't really compare a clitoris to castration. A woman can still procreate with or without a clitoris wheras a man would no longer be able to procreate if his scrotum was severed.

Its the same material, just the plumbing is different. If a guy had his penis cut off, he wouldn't be thinking 'gosh darnit, not I can't have kids', he'd be thinking about all the sensations he'd be missing out on. Besides, if a penis was cut off, you'd still be able to reproduce and urinate, the testes are still functional and the 'tubing' is still there.
If the testicals were removed, yes, that'd be different, it'd be like removing a woman's ovaries. BUt the labia, they are formed from the same primordium as the skin of the scrotum, so removing the labia is similar to flaying the scrotum, without removing it. The only way to have something similar to circumcision, is to 'excise the clitoral hood', which is analagous to the foreskin.

I would probably bet that these people are not up on the pleasures of sex like we are here in the USA

Damned Fools.

No, its pretty clear, they think sex, at least for the women, I don't see them doing anything to the men to stop them from having sex, is something that only exists for marriage.

Im not attracted to cold fishies which is basiclly what you would have without a clitoris

Well, you have a woman who is unresponsive to sex because her sex nerves have been ripped out and her genital mutilated.

smallpeeps
It is a comment on their religion and on them, that they allow this. Where's their version of Martin Luther to nail a schism to the door of the Mosque and end this horror?

Where does it say that the guy that did this is even a muslim?
This is not a religious practice, its a cultural practice. You can have every imam and mosque demand that it be stopped, and its still going to occur, because the christians from over there are going to be doing it.

magicmushroom
how does the law in the US with regard to the circumsision of young Jewish boys, is this practice illegal?

Muslims, Jews, and Christians all practice circumcision.
Female Genital Mutliation is not specifically illegal in the US, there is no federal law against it. Some states have laws against it. This guy was NOT charged with it, he was charged under existing laws, likesay, assault.

Removing any part of a human is barbaric and inhumane,

Circumcision is neither barbaric nor inhumane, neither is removing extra-digits from a hand, or puncturing women's earlobs. Heck, in the US, people are having cosmetic surgery, cosmetic, for appearances, they're being cut open and having parts of their body removed, ground down, replaced, enhanced, etc, because they like the way it looks. Is that 'barbaric'? I personally think its silly, but its not barbaric. Female Genital mutilation, yep, thats barbaric and shouldn't be allowed here.

Tranceopticalinclined
yer not fit to be human if you cant reguard others as human

People should be killed for not treating women fairly? Thats silly. Nations shouldn't be destroyed because they don't give women the vote, or because they have bizzare laws regarding inheritance.
I agree that these places that oppress women are backwards, but to say that people should die, because they aren't acting according to our standards, and then saying its in the name of fairness or something, thats, well, at the least, ironic.

People, its a wild whacky world out there. The aztec kings used to use flint stones to periodically cut their penises open to satisfy their gods. The romans used to bury alive Vestal Virgins who broke their vows, the Hindu widows for generations used to jump onto their husbands funeral fires and die in them, australians rip open the entire shaft of their penis, women in the US take needles and puncture their clitorises to attack metal rings to them because they think its 'cool'. Lets not loose sight of how crazy humans are in general, not just in sudan.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Removing any part of a human is barbaric and inhumane, how does the law in the US with regard to the circumsision of young Jewish boys, is this practice illegal?

No and nether is it illegal for it to be done to women as long as its there decision.

Male Circumcision is different to Female Circumcision in so many ways it's not a viable option to list all of them. However, I will note that male circumcision doesn't effect the sexual life of a male, it is often beneficial to the male and it has no long term defects. Female Circumcision is known to cause A LOT of problems in the long run, especially at child birth.

Female Genital Mutilation is practiced by Muslims and Christians, its not a religious thing, its cultural, its really only practiced in north-east africa. I don't even think its an arab cultural issue, its more of a native african practice.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Nygdan I was not aware it was strictly a cultural thing but I will say that it still falls under the category of a tradition whose time has passed.

The women that this is done to, they almost allways support it.

It's the "almost always" part that I have a problem with.

This is a tradition amoung them, its a bizzare tradition that we find unacceptable.

I understand that, but in my opinion there is a reason behind it other than the stated one of purity. It is a means of controling a certain segment of the population.

I may not be an expert on culture but I feel pretty confident in saying that where these ritual circumcisions occur it is not in what we would consider a liberal society.

It is a male dominated society. The fact that the man is allowed to enjoy sex and the woman is not speaks of control.

I mean isn't this the same culture that shuns women for being raped?

I think that the man who commited this act very well may be following his culture by rote, but there was a real reason this law was passed down and it certainly doesn't sound like it was done for the well being of the woman.

IMO of course.

A lot of bad things can be done in the name of care or tradition but sometimes things are just universally unacceptable.

And there is no way a two year old consented to this.

And just because something is accepted in other cultures doesn't make it right.

As i stated in a previous post it was until recently (though may still be depending on the country) very acceptable for a man to beat or kill his wife for cheating on him.

In some latin countries it was i believe referred to as the machismo defense.

Men would literally get off with a slap on the wrist.

Compeltely acceptable in the culture, but not right in the greater scheme of things.

Snipping off a young girls clitoris may be acceptable in north east africa but it doesn't make it right.

Ethnocentric, yeah okay I'll admit that, but I'm american it's what we do and very accepted in the U.S. culture.

For better or worse.

Spiderj

PS This is turning out to be a really good thread there chissler, good spirited debate on a very sensitive subject giving you two of these::

I agree, its a disgusting practice, the guy belongs in prison. BUT, at the same time, I don't think that its necessarily done to control women, I don't see how it fucntions all that well as an aspect of control, if anything, the first time that people tried to do it, I'd think that the women would be darned upset about it. I think that the concept that its recapitulating the rite of male circumcision is what started it, and that that itself is a recapitulation of the natural destruction of the female hymen.

The aboriginies in australia that practice sub-incision, we wouldn't say that the men are trying to 'control' the younger men, and how woul sub-incision induce control anyway? So I don't see a reason to treat this differently than sub-incision, at least in terms of the motivation.

BUT, its horribly different in terms of whats being done, this is the shearing off of organs, the people that started and continue the practice certainly are ignorant.

But, again, lets also keep in mind that humans in general do ignorant and horrible things like this, thats not an excuse, and it certainly doesn't make it any less repugnant.

Some doctor stole my foreskin, I want it back

I think anything that is not requested by the recipient of said modification is not right.
I lived my whole life never knowing the pleasure of owning a foreskin, sure, it still does the job (penis), the sensations (most of them?) are still there, but part of me is missing.
But, I can live with that i suppose.

I wonder how many of these cultures do this, because they know only too well how a horny man can get around, but they wouldn't want their wifes to do that, no freakin way!

Male chauvanism masquerading as tradition.

I think this story only goes to show that before certain cultures enter Western countries is should be mandatory that they understand and agree that certain cultural practices
that were allowed in their countries are no longer applicable once entering America, UK, Australia , wherever. If they dont agree then they dont come. Simple.

Its the lack of education that really is to blame.
If these people arent TOLD and made AWARE then they cant be blamed 100% for
their actions.
You would think it wouldnt be necessary to teach people the bleedin obvious but this
only proves that its absolutely necessary.

In some countries its okay to marry and have sex with 8 year olds which is equally abhorent to us and a jailable crime.

I think this story is totally abhorent and I am not saying that this man and his wife shouldnt be punished but I would think as well as passing laws to combat the practice that a large amount of funding is also given in the education of western values to these people before entering the country.

Male circumsision has its origins in Egypt although the jews have adopted the practice and made it a requirement, so even Christ was circumsised and some churches have celebrations of this. It is also a requirement in Islam. Oddly enough, circumsision use to be a mark of slavery or servitude. I believe in Liviticus,not sure where exactly, God requires all males in Israel to be circumcised on their 8th day after birth. This was discovered thousands of years later to be because that is the day when vitamin K is the highest in the infant (stops exceesive bleeding). It is no longer strictly a religous practice but a hygiene practice now.

female circumsion is unnecessary. It serves no real purpose, not even for hygiene.