US smokes Religous school in Pakistan using Predator Drone.

Originally posted by jaamaan
The best opium harvest ever for example ??

You said that not me..

The best thing that happened to that country ???
The UN calculates that the opium production increased by 3200% since the invasion of that country.

So you're saying the new govt in power condones opium production?Who is producing the opium?
And you also believe that Afghanistan was better off on the whole under the Taliban?
Are you basing solely on your opium figures or maybe you have other aspects you would like to share that have depreciated since the fall of the Taleban?

Have you been to Afghanistan yourself.
So we must both base our opinion on what information we can find about it.

No I haven't.. but I can wager that I'm pretty much closer to it than you are..
thats irrelevant though;
Whats relevant is the fact that I believe I have enough info to support my point that Afghanistan is better off than it was before..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
So you're saying the new govt in power condones opium production?Who is producing the opium?

Actually, yes.

The Taliban consider opium to be "unclean" and did a lot to destroy it's production.

I'm not going to say the people were better off under those zellots, but try to keep your facts straight. It IS the current (capitalist) government that encourages the farms of opium. Not because they condone it, but because they've set up the ecconomy to place it in demand and have not taken firm enough steps to control either the opium crops or the Warlords that are financing them.

JALALABAD, Afghanistan (February 15, 2001 8:19 p.m. EST

U.N. drug control officers said the Taliban religious militia has nearly wiped out opium production in Afghanistan -- once the world's largest producer -- since banning poppy cultivation last summer.

A 12-member team from the U.N. Drug Control Program spent two weeks searching most of the nation's largest opium-producing areas and found so few poppies that they do not expect any opium to come out of Afghanistan this year.

"We are not just guessing. We have seen the proof in the fields," said Bernard Frahi, regional director for the U.N. program in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He laid out photographs of vast tracts of land cultivated with wheat alongside pictures of the same fields taken a year earlier -- a sea of blood-red poppies.

Source

Early in the era of the Taliban, the radical Islamic regime that allowed the al-Qaida terror network to flourish in Afghanistan, opium cultivation was permitted. But in July 2000, more than a year before the United States knocked it out of power, the Taliban banned the crop and introduced the death penalty for opium crimes, leading to a sharp decline in production.

Now, the regions outside Kabul are under the control of warlords, many of whom benefit from the trade. Last year's production was nine times higher than during the final year of Taliban rule.

Source

[edit on 1-11-2006 by BitRaiser]

I do not like the title of the thread.

Pakistan killed people in its own population. The US did not bomb this site. Some will say the USA is responsible, just like the USA killed off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago because we are infidels.


If they were terrorists then good they are dead. If they were innocent civilians then that is pretty bad. I don't know from what I have read yet.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by jaamaan
And about killing children i can only quote

"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
-- Albert Einstein

[edit on 1-11-2006 by jaamaan]

You are quoting a pacifist. He does not like war, even if its against an enemy. Its ironic that Einstein was the one who prod America to develop the atomic bomb when he view it as a necessity. Unbelievable right?

Actually Einstien warned the U.S. in several letters about the potential problems resulting from the technology. He actually urged the U.S. to not develop the technology.


And for the record, murder is murder. Even if you kill a terrorist it is murder.

The question is not whether or not murder was commited, the question is was it justified.

Originally posted by Souljah
CONGRATULATIONS!

You just SMOKED 80 Teenagers, and Children among them!

Great Show!

And you know this how?

Where you there?

Did you see the bodies of 80 Teenagers? Nope yet you take the word of the Taliban :shk:

Originally posted by omega1


Actually Einstien warned the U.S. in several letters about the potential problems resulting from the technology. He actually urged the U.S. to not develop the technology.

No...he sent a letter prodding America to make the bomb, not the other way around.

And for the record, murder is murder. Even if you kill a terrorist it is murder.

The question is not whether or not murder was commited, the question is was it justified.

Wouldn't matter that it was murder. Murdering Osama Bin Laden would not make me roll over in my bed.

Maybe to people who sympathizes with Osama it be unjustified, but to those who are enemies of Al Qaeda, it sure was worth it. Same thing for the madrassa bombings.

I believe the US was involved in some capacity. I doubt we actually carried out the actual attack but we could have provided the intelligence and targeting information to the Pakistani government and to their forces. Politically the US attacking Pakistani soil (again) would have been too damaging, so we probably told or "encouraged" them to do it on their own.

People read into certain things to much. Jammamma or whatever your name is, you seem to want to believe this airstrike was conducted by the US, and you try to look at it in the worst way possible. Do we know for real that these were children? Were they terrorist? Is America the one who is solely responsible? To me it sounds like whatever goes wrong in the world you want to believe its america who had a hand in it Just so you can have an excuse to hate it...

Originally posted by BitRaiser

Actually, yes.

The Taliban consider opium to be "unclean" and did a lot to destroy it's production.

I'm not going to say the people were better off under those zellots, but try to keep your facts straight. It IS the current (capitalist) government that encourages the farms of opium. Not because they condone it, but because they've set up the ecconomy to place it in demand and have not taken firm enough steps to control either the opium crops or the Warlords that are financing them.

Well its really interesting that you answer my 'condone' question in an affirmative and then take a negative stance on the very same point latern on in your reply!
I sense a bit of inner turmoil here!

1)I never said that the opium growth was less now than it was in the times of the Taleban.
2)I never said that the Taleban condoned opium farming.

Thanks for the education lesson but these things are pretty much common knowledge, at least in the region in live.

The articles you sourced do NOT state or even imply that the Karzai govt. condones poppy growth.
Neither do they state or imply that the govt has NOT done everything in their current power to curb opium growth.
The second one implies that the govt is UNABLE to enforce the relevant laws due to lack of influence and military muscle in the areas of concern.

What we(me atleast) were trying to gauge was whether Afghanistan was better of w/o Taleban or not, and better off than the times of soviet occupation.
So my facts are pretty straight IMHO..

We have not even begun to look at the number of distress suicides that may have been committed by farmers during the reign of the Taleban due to various reasons: starvation, inability to provide for ones family, religious oppression etc. etc..
We have not even begun to consider what livelihood these farmers had when they were not allowed to grow opium. Was it most certainly something legal and honest(by international standards)? We haven't bothered to investigate that.

So I request all those who oppose the 'better off' clause to bring up sources that indicate otherwise; then we have a discussion on our hands.
Otherwise please stop this ridiculous and absolutely irrelevant nitpicking!

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I believe the US was involved in some capacity. I doubt we actually carried out the actual attack but we could have provided the intelligence and targeting information to the Pakistani government and to their forces. Politically the US attacking Pakistani soil (again) would have been too damaging, so we probably told or "encouraged" them to do it on their own.

My thoughts exactly.. Esp after that big tantrum few months back..
I wonder where the predator UAV reports are emerging from then!
The sheer number of them would suggest that this is not just a totally baseless extrapolation of the previous incident

EDIT: Double Post

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by factfinder38
Glad to see that they are all dead and I wish they had gotten many more. If some of you feel so strongly with your hate of the U.S. I would suggest that you go and become a target or marter for your cause. We have plenty of bombs for you.

This is the most dispicable thing I have ever read on ATS. Right now I don't even care if I'm banned. You Sir are SCUM. I am praying right now that you have a brain embilism.

Please die

Well despite what Pakistan may like to claim (publicly) the US probably flies UAV's into it's airspace frequently. Any Predators could have been present either before, during or after the attack. They could have been providing the US with a real time feed of what was happening. So that we could gather Intel from the target area, ensure that Pakistan hit the right target, provide battle damage assessment, gather recon for perhaps secondary strikes and or they provided some sort of targeting information to the Pakistani forces. They could have been present, but again, I doubt we did any actual firing.

Also, did this attack happen at night? Because even in daytime unless you know where to look you won't see a Predator much less hear one, never mind nighttime.

Originally posted by SkyWay
Doesn't surprise me that it was the U.S. who committed that atrocity. Whenever there are reports of such atrocities I always assume that the U.S. is the one that did it until it can be proven that it wasn't.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by SkyWay]

Do I detect a biasedness here? really? I thought we were here to deny ignorance?

yet everyone assumes its a "civilian" target. I think the US intelligence agencys know a little more than you think.

[edit on 2-11-2006 by XphilesPhan]

Okay, that's definitely enough.

Stop with the personal attacks and discuss the issue.

That goes for both sides.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Okay, that's definitely enough.

Stop with the personal attacks and discuss the issue.

That goes for both sides.

I didnt personally attack anyone. I am just saying that bvaseless claims based on prejudices shouldnt be considered valid debate points. that is all.

I dunno if any of these people here that condone this kind of killing are Americans but it is truly disgusting when you cheer the death of kids especially 5 year olds and 8 year olds. If you are from the USA, you are not representative of Americans thats for sure. Truly a disgusting attitude.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I dunno if any of these people here that condone this kind of killing are Americans but it is truly disgusting when you cheer the death of kids especially 5 year olds and 8 year olds. If you are from the USA, you are not representative of Americans thats for sure. Truly a disgusting attitude.

Where is the evidence of this, besides pakistanis sayiong its so? would they tell you otherwise? I dont think they are going to say "hey! you just destroyed our terrorist school and killed our heroes" do you?

xphiles, if I thought that something you said was worthy of a warn, you'd be wearing one.

My comment was made in the interest of steering the conversation in general away from personal attacks.

This pattern is repeated so many times, I feel like I'm stuck in Groundhog Day. Someone says something vile and indefensible, like 'all X should die', or '(insert racial/ethic/religious/partisan slur here)', and then two or three people jump out of the woodwork and start hurling insults.

It just detracts from meaningful discussion, and does nothing to deter the trolls.

Anyone who isn't here to learn should find the door before it's shown to them. That's all I'm sayin' on the subject.

ON TOPIC:
I think it's pretty interesting how much American forces have gotten away with in Pakistan. Forget the discussions on right and wrong for a moment, how freakin' amazing is it that Pakistan, powder keg that is, has kept itself together even when the West is conducting military operations inside the border.

Every week that goes by without a revolution in Pakistan is progressively more unbelievable to me.

I don't WANT them to have a revolution, I'm just astounded that they haven't...

I mean, the vast majority of the citizens of that country distrust and even hate the West, and yet they sit quietly while their own government plays footsie with us under the table. Then we go and do something like this, and amazingly, there aren't any massive riots. At least, we're not hearing about them...

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
xphiles, if I thought that something you said was worthy of a warn, you'd be wearing one.

you have always been fair to me man, I appreciate that