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NeoCon Arguements and Why They Should Be Warned

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posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 04:25 PM
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Ok, I was reading the rules/points on the Misinformation topic. The ones that stuck out were...

7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually them be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material fact.

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best for items qualifying for rule 10.

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

16. Vanishing evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can "argue" with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the "play dumb" rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.

And wouldn't you know the same people break those every time. Sometimes they have three or four in the same post! And they are always the same people! NeoCons! I'm sure my couple weeks on here I've missed many real conservatves or democrats breaking those up above but I may never find them since the NeoCons break them so often. The main one is #7, or Shoot the Messenger that NeoCons have done and I call them out every time I see it. They know who they are and anyone who has read my post know who I am talking about.

Now why post about this? I left MySpace Forums for here hoping for a change yet sadly I find the arguement is more STM then the message itself. Or SOmeone makes a topic that blasts Bush&Co with the truth and the NeoCons do a #25. If they do show up they pull a #19. Also in the Creation forum on ATS #19 is abused majorly by Creationinsts/IDers.




posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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You don't like neo-cons, do you? Can I ask why?



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
And wouldn't you know the same people break those every time. Sometimes they have three or four in the same post! And they are always the same people! NeoCons!


You sure haven't gotten around ATS much.


20 short days and you have come to your above posted conclusion? Yeah, right. I smell an agenda.
My advice - even if you don't want it - get out and see more of ATS. There are people of every political leaning that break rules or push the envelope. Here - you can start your ATS tour here -

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

... then go ahead and try to tell me it's always the neocons who are outta' control.



[edit on 10/28/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 01:48 PM
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NeoCons are Neither Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal, they are Bush Buddies. Bush has proven with his policies to be neither conservative or liberal just corrupt. NeoCons are the ones who believe questioning the government is helping terrorists, democrats are demons, and republicans who don't support Bush are traitors. NeoCons are the ones who think Welare is evil but Bush giving over 9 billion to oil companies after they recorded rcord profits as a good thing. They think OBL is evil yet forget who trained him and put him in power. They think SH had WMDs because Fox told them so. They watch Fox News for news and not entertainment. They are what is wrong with this country for they hijacked the republican party and ruined it. True conservaitves no longer have a party as the former party, republican party, has been corrupted by NeoCons.

Any questions?



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 02:46 PM
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Seriously Horrah .. you have only been here 20 days and yet you are slamming the mods and claiming they don't do their jobs; you are slamming a bunch of ATSers; and you are slamming the site in general.

So if it's so bad why the heck are you still here? Just go back to the MySpace forums where you claim to be from. Or better yet, since you obviously are a foaming at the mouth liberal and you can't stand listening to opinions that are different from your own, go to the echo chamber known as the Democraticunderground.com where any variation from the radical left party line is punished with immediate banishment. You'd probably be happier there.


edited for spelling



[edit on 10/28/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 04:34 PM
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When have I bashed the moderators? And have you not figured it out yet? Of course not, Pill Limbaugh didn't tell you, I am not a foaming at the mouth liberal, I am someone who wishes he had a party that wasn't corrupted by NeoCons. Who knows, maybe people like McCain and SPectre will leave the NeoCon, er, Republican party and make their own true conservative party. One that is conservative on all sides not just one or two subjects. Oh to have a party that doesn't spend trillions on Big Business, like CLinton who left a surplus. I mean, yes Reagan spent but he was fighting the Russians and won. He spent money to beat an enemy, how is giving trillions to oil companies, medical companies, Halliburton, Conservative? We need another Reagan not a NeoCon like Bush. Or get someone like CLinton who was COnservative when it came to spending and economy and a Republican controlled Congress to keep them in check.

Poor Neocons, they couldn't make their own party since a party line of "Giving trillions to billionaires while raping the poor." wouldn't get them elected they corrupted the Republican party. Come on true conservatives, make a new party, clean the Republican party, or join the Libertarians.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 05:15 PM
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I am not a foaming at the mouth liberal, I am someone who wishes he had a party that wasn't corrupted by NeoCons.

That was what you said in your last post.
This is what you said in the post before:


NeoCons are Neither Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal.

Hmm...
So if that's the case what party are you?
All I see is Conflict of Interest.

ATS and more specifically, PTS is about sharing political ideologies, whilst pointing out flaws.
All your doing here is throwing words about, then geting upset when someone doesn't agree with you.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
When have I bashed the moderators?


When you said this -

Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
And wouldn't you know the same people break those every time. Sometimes they have three or four in the same post! And they are always the same people! NeoCons!


You insinuated that the site isn't being run well and/or that the mods aren't doing their jobs. If the same people are abusing the site and breaking the rules over and over .. then they are getting away with it and therefore the mods aren't doing their jobs.


And have you not figured it out yet? Of course not, Pill Limbaugh didn't tell you,


I have absolutely no idea who Pill Limbaugh is and I have no idea what your statement could possibly mean. And now that I think about it .. I don't think that I really want to know ..


Poor Neocons, they couldn't make their own party since a party line of "Giving trillions to billionaires while raping the poor." ...


... and there are no rich democrats? Hollyweird movie stars ring a bell? Or John and Terry Kerry who used to have Ken Lay over for dinner at their Massachussets Mansion (one of 7 that they have). Or GEORGE SOROS who tried to buy the election? etc etc etc

BTW .. Terry Kerry owns a whole bunch of WAL-MART stock. Chew on that for a while.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 12:15 AM
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Being rich isn't a political party, but NeoCons, like Bush, have given billions to oil companies, over a 130 billion to pharmicuticals, and trillions have disappeared when the Pentagon/Halliburton touched it.

Also, again, NeoCons are not liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, they corrupted the Republican party because a party who promote "Trillions to rich while raping the poor" would never be voted in. Again, true conservatives need to either clean out the NeoCons, make a new party, or join the Libertarians.

Oh, a FF, you just broke #17 and #10.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
Also, again, NeoCons are not liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican,


By what I have read in your last post, (let alone your previos posts), this is what I gather, and feel free to correct me If I'm wrong.

You think that Neocons

Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
corrupted the Republican party... would never be voted in.

In other words, Republicans can never get voted in because of it's Neocons.
And:

Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
true conservatives need to either clean out the NeoCons, make a new party, or join the Libertarians.

So by those to quotes I can see where your coming from...
You think Republicans can't get voted in because of it's neocons, but Conservatives can as long as they get their act together. So why can't the Republican party "clean out the NeoCons, make a new party"?
For someone to claim to be so bias toward only neocons, you sure do show alot of political preference.
Either that, or yet another conflict of interest.


Now, I am aware I skipped a part in your first quote (and thus edited it). If the "edited" quote is not what you intended it to say, then I will take all of it into account.
"Unedited" this is what It would say:

Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
they corrupted the Republican party because a party who promote "Trillions to rich while raping the poor" would never be voted in.

Let me break down exactly what you said:
The Republicans support "Trillions to rich while raping the poor."
As a result, the Republicans will never be voted in.
Your saying that Neocons corrupted the Republicans because of this.

Now that doesn't make much sense, does it? First of all, why would 'neocons' corrupt a party for that reasoning, and knowing that they would not get voted in?
Secondly, you still seem to be showing bias against republicans even BEFORE the involvment of neocons.
Or another conflict of interest?


Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
Oh, a FF, you just broke #17 and #10.

If I were you I wouldn't worry about that. I'd drop the whole thing all together.
Not everyone lives by your rules.
They are not even rules set by ATS, as you claim they are. They are guidlines on how to spot disinformation tactics used in MEDIA. Not by members.


Even so, with that being said, For the sake of argument, let's say that they are rules.
I have watched you 'break' your own 'rules' over and over again.
Rule #4 and Rule #7.
You are constanly calling anyone who does not agree with you a Neocon, in an attempt to belittle them, and what they have to say.

Rule #5 and Rule #18.
Again, you are constanly calling anyone who does not agree with you a Neocon. You tell them that they don't know what they are talking about because they follow [insert political head here], when the member has not even stated his political preference.

Rule #6, Rule #9, Rule #13, Rule #15, Rule #19 and Rule #22.
We were talking in another thread about Parkinson's. I made a statment, which you replied with 'you don't know what your talking about'. When I asked you to present your side properly, I was ignored.

Rule #17 and Rule #23
The above mentioned thread was about MJ Fox & Limbaugh. You steered the argument toward the understanding and misunderstanding of Parkinson's.
(on a side note, the thread in question is now about stem cells)

Rule #10
You constantly refer to someone who you call as 'Pill Limbaugh.' Don't you mean Rush Limbaugh? You are assosiating him with a past charge.


With that in light there are now two options here for you to choose:
1: You demand people to live by your rules, yet you yourself do not live by them.
2: I cannot claim you have broken any of these rules, as they are subject to interpretation. Thus you yourself cannot claim that the rules have been broken by others, as that is your interpretation.


As I said above, these are not rules set by ATS. If they were, you would have been banned by now. They are guidlines on how to spot disinformation tactics used in MEDIA. Not by members.
If you weren't so bias, you would have read all of what Umbrax had to say on the matter, and posted it here as well. Please don't take thingsout of context for your own agenda. In the end you will just look foolish.

Originally posted by Umbrax
Keep in mind that just because someone doesn't agree with you it makes them a disinfo agent.


Originally posted by Umbrax
on ATS just about all information is challenged.




Finally, Apposed to your own 'rules,' somewhere in this post I have knowing broke an official ATS rule. If you are so high and mighty, and have read the real rules, you will be able to figure out which one I broke.


~Gear



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 08:43 AM
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HoorahUSMC

If you look at many of the post done already in references to your starting post, you can tell that what is happening to your thread is exactly what you just enumerated on the beginning.

Never point the errors to the guilty because they will eat you alive.


You just prove your point.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
FF, you just broke #17 and #10.


Wrong.

There is no straw man and I didn't change the subject. Frankly, accusing me of these things is changing the subject and just tells me that you've lost the discussion.

You'd be happier at the democraticunderground.com echo chamber. BTW - my telling you that isn't breaking any of your rules .. it's being nice and helping you find peace that you so obviously lack in your mind and soul.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
HoorahUSMC


Oh marg .. you'd just be happy with ANY thread that jumps on republicans and/or conservatives. No matter if they are right or not!


BTW .. you always have GREAT avatars ... don't forget to enter the halloween avatar contest - it's in BTS in the Chit Chat forum.

www.belowtopsecret.com...

edited to add link



[edit on 10/29/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by marg6043
HoorahUSMC


Oh marg .. you'd just be happy with ANY thread that jumps on republicans and/or conservatives. No matter if they are right or not!


[edit on 10/29/2006 by FlyersFan]


You know I am just joking right.


I love you all peolple.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 02:24 PM
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They're just going along with it to prove my point, I hope. If they really don't understand that NeoCons aren't republican or democrats then... They have problems.

Gear, NeoCons corrupted the Republian party under the guise of being conservative which they aren't, thus the name NeoCons. They aren't conservative or liberal, how many times do I need to explain this? They couldn't make their own party since no one would vote for what they support so they corrupted the conservative party under the guise of being conservative, again the name NeoCon. Republicans can get voted in easily, heck, John McCain will have no problem getting re-elected when his time comes and if he ran for President it would be a landslide since he is a true conservative, not a NeoCon. But people like Bush and his entire Administration... Nothing COnservative about them. They are more socialists and communists then the liberals are! They give billions of American tax dollars to big businesses, trillions more are "lost" to other companies. Isn't this socialism?



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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Well one of the problems with parties and supporters is that many in our nation still vote by affiliation it doesn’t matter if their candidate is rotten as long as is supported by their parties.

Is just like religion is faith what drives many voters.


And the illusion of what their parties were founded under. The parties of today are only held by name they are not longer what they stood for.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by HoorahUSMC
Gear, NeoCons corrupted the Republian party under the guise of being conservative which they aren't...

You just don't get it, do you?
I never thought I'd ever use the ignore function on ATS, but your just ridiculous.

U2U me once you get a clue.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 10:11 PM
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And Gear just did #25, vanish. Oh it is nice to be proven right. To easy, I need harder sparring partners, where's DJ and JSO? At least they use links and debate without name calling.



posted on Oct, 29 2006 @ 11:00 PM
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Your speaking truth. You will be targeted because of that.
Marg supports you, but is afraid to show too much support.
Others support you but remain silent, such is the way of the world.

Personally I believe the God has put great delusions on some people, that they may believe the lies fed to them. I call them blissfully ignorant.
No amount of facts or truth will shake this delusion. Do not waste your time trying to wake the dead. (for all you know they could be here to distract and derail you)Cast not ye pearls before swine.
I use ATS to refine my real world strategy in waking people up.
Follow some of the better posters and posts with the facts laid out nicely and sound arguements that silence even the most ardent neocons. Study how to win with logic and consice statements.
You will know you are getting somewhere when the neoconjobs start ending their questions with 'k?
So try not to upset them too much.....m'k?



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 01:01 AM
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Guess what I found? Two people who understand! politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Like finally, someone who isn't a NeoCon posting about how the republicans need to clean house! Finally, people who know that NeoCons aren't conservative but NeoCons.



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