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Police State? Maybe not

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posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 08:03 AM
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I've seen a lot of posts referring to the coming "police state" or "dictatorship" in the US.

While I cannot argue that some of the newer laws and the ways and means by which they are enforced give me pause to go "huh?", I just cannot see a full fledged police state/dictatorship coming to power in the US anytime soon.

Why?

Glad you asked. Most will agree that those in power like the power and would love to stay in power. Many will also agree that money=power. This theorem is proved very easily. Name me one really powerful homeless guy. That simple. Those with money want more, those with power have power because of the money they do have.

Now, those in power need their money and other people’s money to stay in power. Money comes from the economy. Everyone that has a job makes money which they spend and adds to the economy and a lot of that ends up in the hands of those in power. Now, a free people tend to work harder because they want more "stuff". Big screen TV’s, big SUV’s, "bling", etc. So they work to get the money to buy this stuff. They get paid; they pay taxes on what they make, and what they spend, and on what they have.

Do an oppressed people buy Hummers? 60" plasma TV’s? Go out and spend 200 bucks on a night out? Not usually, so an unhappy populace spends less therefore the people in power get less. Getting a big piece of a small pie isn’t nearly as good as getting the same ratio piece from a much bigger pie (would you prefer 30% of 100 dollars or 30% of 1000 dollars?)

Nextly (yes it’s a word, well, it is now. Shakespeare made up words so can I
)

Whether certain groups like it or not this is an armed nation. Yes, the govt can say so and so cannot own a gun because he hit his wife, but they are very unlikely to just ban them. And dealing with 100 million very angry guys with guns is not in the govts best interest. Well some would argue "yeah but the military blah blah blah". Excellent point. Except that many service members like their private firearms as well. Others just wouldn’t want to shoot at US citizens. And if the 4th infantry division suddenly wanted to disobey their orders...the revolution just got a lot more cool toys on its side and guys/gals that know how to use said toys. Cops are the same way. Think cops wouldn’t walk on their jobs? Ask the mayor of New Orleans.

So yes, there does seem to be some erosion of our rights...but I don't fear waking up and having to "heil bush" anytime soon.

(mods if you feel this is in the wrong forum, please feel free to move it. thank you)




posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by DamoclesSo yes, there does seem to be some erosion of our rights...but I don't fear waking up and having to "heil bush" anytime soon.


Patience, a lot of patience, and people slowly change the way they perceive and accept things.
People are sheep, even religions compare outright that "we are the sheep". People will be guided in mass in how to think.

Peace

Dalen



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 08:12 AM
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this may be true for the majority, but the minority of "free thinkers" out there still comprise a large number even if only a fraction of the population. it may be enough to tip the balance.

besides...there are those out there who do value our basic freedom enough to die for it. even if its a losing battle.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Damocles
So yes, there does seem to be some erosion of our rights...but I don't fear waking up and having to "heil bush" anytime soon.


The erosion of rights seems to me to be engineered in such a way that most people fail to notice.It has been called "the totalitarian tiptoe,"by some.Its not just going on in the USA either,it seems it is a global trend which all of the governments of the "free world" are participating in.

I agree no one will be having to "heil bush,"as this would be a little too obvious.
However,the undertones are definitely there-
Look at the systems of the "free world" that are being embraced by the powers that be in our time:

The torture of suspects.
The waging of aggresive wars[under false pretences].
The control of the mainstream media.
The installation of fear into the masses by psyops/media campaigns.
Religious manipulation for political gain.
Warrantless global wiretaps/credit checks.
Corporations entwined with the very fabric of governments and law making.
The demonisation of an entire group/race/religion.(islam)
The global bio metric ID system.
Eshelon.

Etc Etc...

Consider the words of Benito Mussolini:

"It is humiliating to remain with our hands folded while others write history. It matters little who wins. To make a people great it is necessary to send them to battle even if you have to kick them in the pants. That is what I shall do."

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

Benito Mussolini

Sound familiar?



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 08:40 AM
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OP thats what Germany said in 1933. What do you think surrendering freedom for security means.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 09:04 AM
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Dictatorships and police states have a new definition in modern days. Totalitarian governments of the past are the examples been played to us to show the differences and for us to make comparisons.

At the same time laws, regulations and bills are passed to provide the door for future governments to be more proficient in control of our nation and us the population.

You are right is all about money and as long as the people are fed that they have freedom and that we live in a perfect democracy that includes all our government do is for our own good and our safety we are actually losing our rights to make decisions against the powers that control every aspect of our lives.

No, we may never see a totalitarian rule in the US by the standards of the ones we have grown to find horrible when we hear names like Hitler and Stalin but look around and see how free we really are right now.

Are we really voting for the candidates we want? Just look at our government system and see how control elections and candidates really are.

Look at congress and see the same faces over and over through the years in control, do we really have choices?

See who really controls elections and the decision makings of our nation.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 09:05 AM
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but if we are veering towards "corporatism" then do you think that the corporations are going to be willing to oppress the citizens so badly?

"who'd have thought taht the biggest problem with communism was that there is no money in it" David Letterman


look at north korea, not exactly tearing up the global economy are they?



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 09:25 AM
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Originally posted by Damocles
but if we are veering towards "corporatism" then do you think that the corporations are going to be willing to oppress the citizens so badly?


No, because we are the venue to their life support. That is why I say that modern totalitarism will never be in the same cathegories as the ones we have seen through history.

Even in communist countries and totalitarian countries, The elite in power thrives while the rest of the nation live in squalor and hunger.



"who'd have thought taht the biggest problem with communism was that there is no money in it" David Letterman


It is money but that money is for the use of the few that control it.



look at north korea, not exactly tearing up the global economy are they?


No, they are not but Kim live in splendor while his people die of hunger.

See that is the totalitarian picture we get and when we compare to our democratic nation is not comparison.

We still get to spend our money anyway we want as long as we have it. But the intentions are different.

The modern totalitarism will ensure a happy nation while blinding the population to what is going on behind close doors.

Remember our men and women are fighting their wars in the name of patriotism and for the preservation of our freedoms.

But is that the reason? really the reason?





[edit on 26-10-2006 by marg6043]



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 09:28 AM
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OP: Your theory makes alot of sense. Unfortunately, however, the power-mad are so blinded by their addiction to power, that they don't care about what is rational. Look how many insane policies have already been passed. No, they dont care about what makes sense, they're like alcoholics, drunk on power.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 09:32 AM
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so far im having fun with this thread.

i like to put forth theories to get people to evaluate what they think and why. doesnt matter if i agree or not, i just like people thinking. personally i love conspiracies because it gets people asking questions and the more questions people ask the harder it becomes for a govt to lie about EVERYTHING.

but mostly, i dont care waht people think as long as they are thinking and doing so with an open mind. thanks to all the posters so far, you all raise great points.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Damocles
but if we are veering towards "corporatism" then do you think that the corporations are going to be willing to oppress the citizens so badly?

Hmm,well think of how corporations treat the third world now.
Testing of unlicenced drugs/vaccines on children.
The behaviour of certain oil companies,and their mercenaries.
Lobbying governments into oppresive policys through technology,ie ID cards,database,tracking.
Forcing through legislation due to their "political muscle"($$$).
Selling blood to forign countries,knowing it was contaminated with HIV,with the approval of the Gov.
So i don`t think they are averse to a bit of nastiness now,or even 20 years ago.As their power grows and they become evermore assimilated into political parties,do you think they will become more benevolent,more ethical,less cut throat?
Or less? I think less,im afraid.


originally posted by Damocles
like to put forth theories to get people to evaluate what they think and why. doesnt matter if i agree or not, i just like people thinking. personally i love conspiracies because it gets people asking questions and the more questions people ask the harder it becomes for a govt to lie about EVERYTHING.

but mostly, i dont care waht people think as long as they are thinking and doing so with an open mind. thanks to all the posters so far, you all raise great points


I like your attitude.



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 09:57 AM
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Police State? Maybe not


We're breathing air? Maybe not.


Seriously, we're moving to a fascist state, the fed is a scam, the IRS is a scam, the RFID ID card are coming, the human micro-chip is coming, the North American Union is coming, more patriot act are coming, 9/11 was an inside job, the elections are stagged, ect...

It's never too late for a revolution, but we should not wait until it's too late.

[edit on 26-10-2006 by Vitchilo]



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 10:53 AM
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your theory, has merit at first glance, but you have to see that money is the means to power not the power itself. What if those with the power and the money had a way to keep the power without having to bother with the middleman of money, they could do this by engineering the thought patterns of those they leech the money from. Back in 1930 I would have totally agreed with you but the techniques being employed now will cut money out of the power equation completely. By 2010 they want to add our funds to our Real IDS. You can just look at the culture now to see the effects already happening. Does anyone really spend MONEY anymore, I just swipe some card which supposedly has value on it. Even when some problem has arised with my funds the bank can just CREDIT me the money which they really create out of thin air. Look around you America is already becoming absent of money.

[edit on 26-10-2006 by TheStampede]



posted on Oct, 26 2006 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by Damocles
I've seen a lot of posts referring to the coming "police state" or "dictatorship" in the US.

While I cannot argue that some of the newer laws and the ways and means by which they are enforced give me pause to go "huh?", I just cannot see a full fledged police state/dictatorship coming to power in the US anytime soon.

Why?

Glad you asked. Most will agree that those in power like the power and would love to stay in power. Many will also agree that money=power. This theorem is proved very easily. Name me one really powerful homeless guy. That simple. Those with money want more, those with power have power because of the money they do have.

Now, those in power need their money and other people’s money to stay in power. Money comes from the economy. Everyone that has a job makes money which they spend and adds to the economy and a lot of that ends up in the hands of those in power. Now, a free people tend to work harder because they want more "stuff". Big screen TV’s, big SUV’s, "bling", etc. So they work to get the money to buy this stuff. They get paid; they pay taxes on what they make, and what they spend, and on what they have.

Do an oppressed people buy Hummers? 60" plasma TV’s? Go out and spend 200 bucks on a night out? Not usually, so an unhappy populace spends less therefore the people in power get less. Getting a big piece of a small pie isn’t nearly as good as getting the same ratio piece from a much bigger pie (would you prefer 30% of 100 dollars or 30% of 1000 dollars?)

Nextly (yes it’s a word, well, it is now. Shakespeare made up words so can I
)

Whether certain groups like it or not this is an armed nation. Yes, the govt can say so and so cannot own a gun because he hit his wife, but they are very unlikely to just ban them. And dealing with 100 million very angry guys with guns is not in the govts best interest. Well some would argue "yeah but the military blah blah blah". Excellent point. Except that many service members like their private firearms as well. Others just wouldn’t want to shoot at US citizens. And if the 4th infantry division suddenly wanted to disobey their orders...the revolution just got a lot more cool toys on its side and guys/gals that know how to use said toys. Cops are the same way. Think cops wouldn’t walk on their jobs? Ask the mayor of New Orleans.

So yes, there does seem to be some erosion of our rights...but I don't fear waking up and having to "heil bush" anytime soon.

(mods if you feel this is in the wrong forum, please feel free to move it. thank you)

Hear no evil, speak no evil,see no evil....Does not mean its not standing behind you. We go through our day without or with little thoughts that our government is trying to put the screws to us. If they put it on billboards and ran T.V. ads that showed us how they plan to sick it to us then it would cause revolt. The system works like a fine tuned machine right now. Why would they change it? Economic spikes are introduced to shift us in the direction the powers that be want us..(i.e.) the economy to go. If you started to yell and scream that the government was taking over and taking everyones rights out in public. We the public are being subjected to see a person acting that way as a "threat" a possible enemy of the state a "terrorist" anti-American and so forth and your first reaction would be to call the police. And when the police showed up baring how the person yelling acted he/she would be asked to dis-engage from the "public distubance" or be forced to stop by arrest and or imprisonment and fines upon a court decision. And the point being that even though you were NOT physically harming anyone you do NOT have that right "without being restained in some form of law binding way". And I know that it's a way out way to look at it but just try it and see for yourself?



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 05:13 AM
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yeah..

So, lets start with the gun thing.
Notice the startling rise in school shootings in the past months?
Imagine if we had 4-5 school shootings a month.
How long would it be before Americans were calling Congress men and demanding guns be out lawed in their area?
How long would it take for millions of ignorant house wifes to call in worried for their childrens safety?

Schools would be empty untill this gun ban was enacted and parents were assured of their childs safety.

Theres other scenarios that could fit. The out law of fire-arms could be put in place because a nation wide martial law, possibly after a large 'terrorist' attack.

In any account, we need to be disarmed if we are to be subject to these people. This is one of the last steps, this is when its do or die. After we have no guns, no form of conventional weapons, thats when we are officially sheep.



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 05:17 AM
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i cant say i disagree on any particular point anyones raised. great posts guys. like i said, i enjoy a real intellectual discussion.

i also particularly agree that money is the means to power but its also the means to KEEPING the power. back to the economy. again, would u want the taxes collected in north korea or in the US?

and please dont forget that the govt is painfully aware of the 2nd amendment. they will not outlaw guns in this o#ry and still have a country to rule. our forefathers were rebels and wanted to make sure we always had that option should the need arise. not even the us army wants to face off 100million armed and pissed off citizens. even without assault rifles, many many many people own sniper...errr deer rifles, and a shotgun in an urban fight is a really good choice. and we wont even go into how many of us former military out there would be rather displeased by a revocation of the 2nd and join with the revolutionaries, and many many of us know how to do things that would make the tanks/apc's a lot less effective.

now, does this mean i dont think really shady things are going on behind the scenes? naw, im an idealist not an idiot. i know whats going on as well as the rest. i stated before why i started this thread and NO i didnt post it in an attempt to start a fight or get my points up there, i have more points than i could spend in the ats stores. i see people talking about the path to a total police state and i posted MY OWN thoughts on why i dont think its likely to the degree many are thinking.

if i was to concede a point on the "police state" id say that if anything they want to keep us fat dumb and happy so maybe we dont realize the crap they are pulling or maybe to wehre we just dont care. totally take the "well it doesnt affect me so who gives a rats rear" approach to it which i think is and has been happening for a long time now.

but then every so often something comes along and changes it all up. we'll see.



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 08:12 AM
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and please dont forget that the govt is painfully aware of the 2nd amendment. they will not outlaw guns in this o#ry and still have a country to rule. our forefathers were rebels and wanted to make sure we always had that option should the need arise. not even the us army wants to face off 100million armed and pissed off citizens. even without assault rifles, many many many people own sniper...errr deer rifles, and a shotgun in an urban fight is a really good choice. and we wont even go into how many of us former military out there would be rather displeased by a revocation of the 2nd and join with the revolutionaries, and many many of us know how to do things that would make the tanks/apc's a lot less effective.


That's why here in Canada they want to ban all semi-automatic guns + pistols, RIGHT NOW!!! They are now in discussion to take everygun in Canada! And then when we merge with the USA, they'll push towards this also in the US, ban of all guns! Farking anti-guns lobbies!

[edit on 27-10-2006 by Vitchilo]



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 05:00 PM
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i guess i just believe that private firearms are wayyyy too engrained in our culture for them to be taken peacfully. too many in the "cold dead fingers" crowd



posted on May, 2 2007 @ 01:27 PM
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Good day friend, such a good thread I thought id give it a bump with my own views..



While I cannot argue that some of the newer laws and the ways and means by which they are enforced give me pause to go "huh?", I just cannot see a full fledged police state/dictatorship coming to power in the US anytime soon.


The ting is, ANY new law that will ever be created is going to impede upon your rights in some way or another, be it small or large..

If you have a status quo with the laws at the moment, your freedoms are neither more or less, and a new law is passed it will either increase your freedoms or cut back on your freedoms.. very, very few laws that are passed ever "help" you keep your freedoms, how ever it has happened, laws against corporations for instance are designed to HELP the citizens be healthy and safe.. working conditions are guided by laws, health conditions, laws that limit companies that prey on people such as pay-day-lending companies..

So there are laws that help you, and there will always be laws that "hurt you" but you will most likely never feel the direct effect.. that is rather rare, if anything it is hype, and hype is often generated for political gain.

The laws passed within the Patriot act are imo, mostly illegal, but not unexpected.. every president since Washington has worked to consolidate power and make the federal government bigger..



Now, those in power need their money and other people’s money to stay in power. Money comes from the economy. Everyone that has a job makes money which they spend and adds to the economy and a lot of that ends up in the hands of those in power. Now, a free people tend to work harder because they want more "stuff". Big screen TV’s, big SUV’s, "bling", etc. So they work to get the money to buy this stuff. They get paid; they pay taxes on what they make, and what they spend, and on what they have.


What your essentially describing is capitalism, except one problem with what your saying..

Power is the ability to control the people, to control production is not power.. you can stop producing sure, you'll loose money, not the people, and someone from the pool of citizenry will always be willing to make the product you won't make. Corporations have power in that they can buy our law makers, which they do, and that is not a NWO conspiracy, that is sadly just called corruption.

You mention the homeless man, he has no power, but that does not mean he cannot aquire it. Many world leaders have risen from the dust of society, from the shadows of alley ways and became the worlds greatest leaders.. Power is the ability to capture the the peoples inspiration, to take their hopes and dreams and make them possible, or at least promise to make them possible.. and once the will of the people is behind him, no corporate man will ever stand in his way.

Putin made a fine example of this.. he grew up poor, he rose to power in a rather short amount of time .. one thing he did was bring down Russia's oil companies and arrest the billionaire who owned them and made them state owned..

Corporate owners and controlers can do all kinds of things.. like get into country clubs.. never have to reserve a table at fancy restraunts, have very attractive mistresses
.. but other then that, they have no power..

I have personally sat with several BIG CEO's, I have eaten and drank with several and I can tell you they are for the most part down to earth good people.. completely normal guys with a lot of money.. they mingle with the political crowd because they look out for their own self interest, we all do, but they have no "power" .. people scurry around them bringing anything they require.. because the people that serve their interest are getting paid to do such.. they expect to gain by appeasing the big rich man. Someone like me who is not in their control (I don't work for a rich man) I could give a crap what they do, who they are and why they do it.. it makes for excellent conversation, I love to explain my economic theories with the rich and influential, and I love to hear how they came to be, many if not most come from poor families.



Do an oppressed people buy Hummers? 60" plasma TV’s? Go out and spend 200 bucks on a night out?


The people that claim the United States is a fascist state have
1. No knowledge of Fascism
2. Never been to a REAL tyrannical state..
3. Overly paranoid..

America is still the freest nation in the world.. that is an undeniable fact.

That does not mean it cannot become a dictatorship.. of course not.. it has been becoming one since it was founded
.. All democracies will end in Tyranny.



Nextly (yes it’s a word, well, it is now. Shakespeare made up words so can I


He made up I believe something like 35% of his words




Whether certain groups like it or not this is an armed nation. Yes, the govt can say so and so cannot own a gun because he hit his wife, but they are very unlikely to just ban them.


Ironically I fear the liberal left's motives, I find them socialistic in nature and very dangerous for the freedom we currently have. Meanwhile every one else fears "neo-cons"..
I cannot imagine why.


The day America implements gun-control is the day America is most vulnerable to fall.



with 100 million very angry guys with guns is not in the govts best interest.


Yes, a government take over would be entirely impossible with the amount of armed people.

Silicon:



The torture of suspects.


I cannot imagine how that effects my freedoms lol.. sad maybe, dangerous? No..



The waging of aggresive wars[under false pretences]


No, your mixing in your own political views with what a dictatorship really is..



The control of the mainstream media.


The media is corporate owned, they will do what ever is in the best intrest of them selves, not you.. that should be expected, but what would you prefer? State run? .. The media is actually very much so against the current administration, not "working with them" ..




The installation of fear into the masses by psyops/media campaigns.


The general population cannot name the vice president, we are a stupid, egotystical, self absorbed arrogant society. People like you may be affraid, I fear the massive ignorance in this country, but I understand that the government is actually far to incompetent to "take us over"



Religious manipulation for political gain.


I have seen not one shred of evidence of this happening, not one shred. Blatant lies for political gain.



Warrantless global wiretaps/credit checks.


Unethical for sure, illegal most defently.. I agree with you that this is a very dangerous path to start on..



Corporations entwined with the very fabric of governments and law making.


Corruption, not dictatorships.. if anything corporate influences actual stop the government from "taking over" because if the gov did, all the corporations would collapse. Self destruction? please.



The demonisation of an entire group/race/religion.(islam)


Puting conspiracies aside, if Muslims did in fact partake in 9/11 it is understandable people would fear the unknown.



The global bio metric ID system.


Does not exist currently in America.. it could, I hope it doesn't, I won't partake in it..



Eshelon.




outa time, more later.



posted on May, 2 2007 @ 10:56 PM
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We the 'average joe', will take a lot. I hope that at some point (soon?) we will stand and say"no more".

Take our guns? Well, they'll get some, but I doubt the Feds could find a tenth of what's out there.

Dictatorship? See that part above about one tenth.

I hope we are smart enough to get involved in the political process at the local level long before guns are needed. For those of you who have never seen old style combat, not today's video game version, but the real guts on the ground, a*s clenching thing, trust me when I say that voting is a hell of a lot easier.

Be a man-Vote!



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