Chinese massacres Tibetan refugees

Originally posted by Himalayan

How, are you expecting Han chinese to respect tibetan if they always do things like boycotting Beijing Olympic? That will only harm the relationship, and bring more tragic.

- I know some Han Chinese do have respect for us Tibetans because i've met many in my life.
- What about all the violent demonstration against Japan? Your people fought for their and your freedom from The Japanese and still are figting because of what Japan is doing, Rewriting history by stating that their War crimes are exaturarted and not true. Now are you and others going to listen to Japans view on what happened in NANJING?
- Your people are still fighting, does that means anything to you?

WW2 has not being exaturated


there is a world of difference between what china vs japan and china vs tibet

1) politically speaking:

-Tibet is a part of china, therefore, any harm done to china will harm tibet (unless you want to free tibet from china, which is unrealistic)

-japan and china are not one country, putting up protests unite people, and actually helps the country's development. This is pretty much like saying the US is trying to contain china, which helps the US.

2) historically speaking:

-what happened in tibet is totally from what happen in WW2 japan vs china.

-what happened in tibet is more like what happened to native indian after the arrival of European.

-sino-japan war was more like german-jews holocaust.
20000000+ chinese ppl were killed during the sino-japanese war, and the Nanjing slaughtering alone resulted in 300000+ civilians killed in 3 days from the japanese army's human slaughtering contest game.
here are some photos taken back then

----------


The biggest point I want to point out is that when china make protest against japan, it actually helps china, where as tibetans' protest against china harms tibet.

Another comparison, when americans try to isolate china, it helps americans. But if the US-living-tibetans try to isolate china, they isolate their own homeland.

get the point now?

[edit on 10/31/2006 by warset]

some ppl like to make comparsons between Tibet genocide and 1989 Tianmen crisis with WW2 Nanjing massacres.

I can tell you they are nothing alike.

here i'll just post some pic from Nanjing massacre, DO NOT look if you don't want to get scared.

skulls of the dead
img.news.tom.com...

bodies piled up
cimg.163.com...

www.cnwangxin.com...

bodies dumped into the river
photo.sohu.com...

choping head contest
www.boxun.com...

a head on display
photo.sohu.com...

bodies dumped into a pound
www.boxun.com...

women rapped and stomach cut open
img.hnol.net...

bodies piled up and burned
pop.pcpop.com...

-----------

and saddest part of all is that some ppl today are dennying the existance of the incidence, and claiming it's the "evil communists" spreading brainwashing lies.

[edit on 10/31/2006 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
WW2 has not being exaturated

- I don't think you read what my post.
- I didn't say it was exaturated. I'm saying The Japanese are stating that their War crime in Nanjing and others are exaturated, the Japanese govt is saying that by rewriting the history of what the did....sugar coating it... You know what i'm talking about

there is a world of difference between what china vs japan and china vs tibet

No there is none ! Oppression is Opression, Killing is Killing.

1) politically speaking:
-Tibet is a part of china, therefore, any harm done to china will harm tibet (unless you want to free tibet from china, which is unrealistic)

-Tibet is now because of illegal invasion by the Chinese Communist Party.
- Under the circumstance, freeing Tibet is unlikely ! I said i agreed to that in earler post, you are really not reading my post and if you are then you are not understanding it because your judgement is clouded by hatred.

-japan and china are not one country, putting up protests unite people, and actually helps the country's development. This is pretty much like saying the US is trying to contain china, which helps the US.

- Japan and China are not one country, Who said it was.
- putting up protests, uniting people is what Tibetans and Human Right activists are doing and this will help Tibetan & Chinese people in China because they are voice is not heard because of the brutal oppression.

2) historically speaking:

Historically Speaking, yes lets do this...

-what happened in tibet is totally from what happen in WW2 japan vs china.

What? you are saying is "totally different", How so? killing Innocent people, torture, imprisonment, how is that different that what happened in China by Japenese

-what happened in tibet is more like what happened to native indian after the arrival of European.

- Yes, Exactly and Precisely. So what is your point? Us Tibetans should sit on our ass and let this happen? and not protest about this and accept it? Are you trully understanding the nature of the threat?

-sino-japan war was more like german-jews holocaust.
20000000+ chinese ppl were killed during the sino-japanese war, and the Nanjing slaughtering alone resulted in 300000+ civilians killed in 3 days from the japanese army's human slaughtering contest game.
here are some photos taken back then

- YES YES THAT IS WHAT I'M SAYING ! the atrocities that Japanese did to Chinese is what the Chinese are doing on My People.
- Killing innocent people is still Killing, oppresing them is still Oppressing them, Theres no JUSTIFCATION for those barbaric acts, eventhough it is not at the same level as during the brutal illegal invasion of Tibet, but nonetheless it exist, it is REAL and it is still happening.
----------

The biggest point I want to point out is that when china make protest against japan, it actually helps china, where as tibetans' protest against china harms tibet.

- Yes, When Tibetans and human rights group protest they are letting the voice of those Oppressed Tibetan HEARD to the world.

Another comparison, when americans try to isolate china, it helps americans. But if the US-living-tibetans try to isolate china, they isolate their own homeland.

NO! you are wrong. US-LIVING TIBETANS or any other country ? hah...we are nonetheless people with no country and our people are still being oppressed that is why we keep our struggle alive, the struggle for a true genuine autonomous Tibet where Human rights are protected.

get the point now?

- No because your views(beliefs) contradicts what you are stating or trying to state, You & k4rupt, chinawhite are hypocrite who's agenda is to SILENCE the predicament that my people are in and sugarcoat China's barbaric reputation...



[edit on 31-10-2006 by Himalayan]

no, when china protest japan, it doesn't create peace, it makes more violence

same goes to tibet, when they protest, they deepens the hatred, and results in more violence.

and when they try to prevent china from growing, they prevent tibet from growing too.

this concept is totally different from the US trying to prevent china from growing.

US grows when china is not growing; Tibet doesn't grow when china is not growing.

this is an very easy to understand concept, why can't you get it?



War against other people create peace among you own group, war against your own group brings more sadness.

I suggest you to read George Orwell's "1984", it's one of the best ever created political novel. you'll then understand the world much better.
"War is peace; freedom is slavery; ignorant is strength." truest statement ever created in human history. Unfortunatly most ppl don't get it.

[edit on 10/31/2006 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
no, when china protest japan, it doesn't create peace, it makes more violence
same goes to tibet, when they protest, they deepens the hatred, and results in more violence.

we do peaceful protest, that is the way we do it.

and when they try to prevent china from growing, they prevent tibet from growing too.

When China grows & Still commits Human Rights violation that is unacceptable.

this concept is totally different from the US trying to prevent china from growing.

US grows when china is not growing; Tibet doesn't grow when china is not growing.

this is an very easy to understand concept, why can't you get it?

When you say Tibet grows that only Benefits Han chinese in Tibet. The wealth is not trikling down to Tibetans like you are saying, your statement is incorrect.

War against other people create peace among you own group, war against your own group brings more sadness.

- What are you talking about? We are doing peacefull protest and letting the world know of Tibets situation so that theres more dialogue between Beijing, other countries and Tibetan govt in Exile..so we can solve this situation.
We are not commiting war against Chinese. your statement is Ridiculously misleading.

I suggest you to read George Orwell's "1984", it's one of the best ever created political novel. you'll then understand the world much better.
"War is peace; freedom is slavery; ignorant is strength." truest statement ever created in human history. Unfortunatly most ppl don't get it.

You see, ATS folks, this person mind set is in a very sad state. Claiming such a statement...

[edit on 31-10-2006 by Himalayan]

Originally posted by Himalayan

Originally posted by warset
no, when china protest japan, it doesn't create peace, it makes more violence
same goes to tibet, when they protest, they deepens the hatred, and results in more violence.

we do peaceful protest, that is the way we do it.

and when they try to prevent china from growing, they prevent tibet from growing too.

When China grows & Still commits Human Rights violation that is unacceptable.

this concept is totally different from the US trying to prevent china from growing.

US grows when china is not growing; Tibet doesn't grow when china is not growing.

this is an very easy to understand concept, why can't you get it?

When you say Tibet grows that only Benefits Han chinese in Tibet. The wealth is not trikling down to Tibetans like you are saying, your statement is incorrect.

the idea 1984 expresses is not sad at all, people just dont get the story, it's not just about evil dictators brain washes people.
the "animal farm" is all about soviet communism, but "1984" is actually not about communism.

wars war not nessissarily done in a physical way.

Let the idea of boycotting as an example, it's a war happens economically. people suffer when they don't have money.

tibet will benefit if china as a whole grows. it's just a matter of the rate of growth they receive. At the moment, Han chinese might get a lot of health, and tibetans only getting a little bit, but that little bit is still benefit! comparing that with china not growing, than tibetan is not getting anything at all. If china is going backward, guess what's gonna happen to tibet?

Tibet will improve after Han chinese themselves are saticified.

take Canada as an example, when the mainstream white ppl were not wealthy (1930's for example), who would care about native indian?

Natives would get improvement when the mainstream white ppl are satisfied first. Only when the mainstream is satisfied, the government can then focus more on its minority ethnic groups. But if even the mainstream is not yet satisfied, who would give a damn about minorities?

Same goes to china, who would consider minorities much when the mainstream haven't finished their own development?

but boycotting the mainstream's development will only make the process longer.

governing a country is like building a house, the mainstream is like the frame of the house, while minorities and other issues are like the house details. When the big frame is not yet done, will builders care much about the details? Of course the details of a house is also extremely important for the overall, but there is order/pattern in doing things: what comes first, what comes after... I am not saying that Hans should have the priority or something, but the government has to satisify the majority(90% of Han) first before they can move on to minorities.

[edit on 10/31/2006 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
The biggest point I want to point out is that when china make protest against japan, it actually helps china, where as tibetans' protest against china harms tibet.

Having tibetans gunned down by the chinese military while they are simpyl trying to run away hurts tibet a heckuva lot more.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor


I think that kind of means Himalayan proved someone wrong when they say "alright you won". You know...the bs about Tibetan people being happy and all.

lol, you're going to take him literally? Do you have any proof that there ARE lots of Tibetans living happily in the PRC? If not, why would the Dalai Lama state that Tibet needs China. If EVERY Tibetan were suffering, the Dalai Lama would not thank China ... I'd rather trust the Dalai Lama over your B.S. anyday.

Wow so open minded. You said that killing, torturing, and cultural imperialism is not great. Geez I wish I was as open minded as YOU K4rupt!

Hm... I coulda sworn you were talking about the United States. "Killing, torturing, cultural imperialism." Are you refrering to the United States and what it has done to the Native Americans or the United States and what it is doing to Iraq right now? Lol... *Hypocritical*

And why is Tibet part of China? Why are Tibetans a minority now in their own country?

Why is Hawaii part of the United States? Why is the mainland of America, the Native American's land part of the U.S.?

Even the dalai lama has stated that Tibet NEEDS China and should stay with China. Alright?

No we are bringing up what China has done and is still doing. You come on here and first try to air brush it, and now you say we are ignorant. Don't know how that works really...

By making up B.S.? Great job retinoid...

I am not "hypocritical" because I never stook up for what my country is doing or has done that is bad or imperialistic. I actually condemn my country when it is wrong, even if it is my country unlike you. Oh nevermind you said what your country did in Tibet isn't "great".

Exactly, and yet you seem to bash China without hestitation often making up B.S. along the way.... HOWEVER you fail to realize that your own damn country is doing the same thing RIGHT NOW. I believe, before you go making up lies and biased stories to attack another person's country, you should look at the TRUTHS about your own country.

I never wrote anything to smudge China's people, only China's government. Tata

That derived it's power FROM the people...

Where were you when foreign nations occupied China? Where were you when the Japs invaded and killed millions of innocent women and children? Where were you when there were signs on CHINESE SOIL that stated "No dogs and Chinese allowed?" Where WERE you when Britain attacked China so it could sell drugs and occupied HK? Where were you when Portugal occupied Macau? Where were you when Germany, Russia, the U.S. carved out territory in China for themselves? Where were you when the United States implemented it's Open-Door policy on China? Where were you when any of this shiet happened to my people? My people GOT SICK of the western imperialism B.S. so we did something - we brought up a gov't that RID us of that and set us on the path of becoming a GLOBAL SUPER POWER.

You, as a westerner, have NO RIGHT to shiet on my people's decision on our gov't, especially when you make up lies, half truths, and biased accounts....

Tata...



[edit on 31-10-2006 by k4rupt]

What choice in governement? Tibet was invaded by china, they don't permit the tibetans to speak publically about what kind of government they want, and they apparently are shooting people that are trying to leave. Thats absolutely reprehensible.

K4rupt what BS and ignorance are you talking about? You say that in every post yet never reference it. Is it the BS that China invaded Tibet, suppressed the people and culture and is now sending Han Chinese there [which now Tibetans are the minority in their own country]? What BS are you referencing?

And why are you bringing up the Native Americans? lol. Because Europe and America persecuted people hundreds of years ago, it is okay for China to, and the people who never supported their country's persecution cannot speak up for others being persecuted? I don't understand your logic

And I know, the Dalai Lama is saying Tibet needs China to be modernized (which I am sure Tibet could have done that eventually since Western corporations could have went there as well and they could have done what many other Asian countries are doing now). But he is in no way "thanking" China for sending him into exile! lol.

I understand China is your country, but that doesn't mean you need to defend the bad things it does.

Tata

China looks like a big bad bully in this one. I fail to see why China which is supposed to be swinging capitalist according to our MSM needs all these border buffer states any longer. So let these prisoners go and let them do what they need to do.

K4rupt: Even the dalai lama has stated that Tibet NEEDS China and should stay with China. Alright?

- Our Dalai Lama (we refer to him as Kundun or Gyalwa Rinpoche) stated that because China by using force made my Country depend on it.
- My people are now minority in our own Land.
- My people now have no choice but to learn Chinese and try to fit in.
- China has and is systematically making my peoples identity useless and thus by doing so will erase our Identity in few generation if not stopped.
- Therefore you see he is saying Tibet needs China, it is not by his choice.
- I didn't asked to be born in exile.
- My parents didn't asked to be driven to exile.
- My fathers father died in prison (no one knows for certain but our relatives that arrrived India afterwards said that he had committed suicide in prision. My dads mother died at an age of 35 after catching some viral disease in India, My grandparents from my mother side died when they were trying to flee to India.
- My grandparents didn't ask for this.
- My parents became orphan at a tender age of 7 or 8, they didn't ask for that.
- So you tell me, as an human being, did we ask for this.
- I never asked that i wanted to dream of Tibet.
- I never asked my teachers in India to teach us about Tibet by showing us drawings of Tibet.
- My people living in Tibet and in Exile never asked for none of these.
- There is simply no justification for the atrocities China has committed and still committing on my people.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- There is no doubt in my mind and others but just to show your My peoples solidarity, when India blamed Tibetan for having hand in buying/selling Indians Tiger for clothing (Chupa), During our holy Kalachakra (an important festival of Tibetan Buddhism) led by Our Dalai Lama, approximately 10,000 Tibetans came from Tibet to attend this. During that, our Dalai Lama immediately said this is terribly wrong and us Tibetans should stop this stupidity and that he was ashamed at this. Immediately, Tibetans through out Tibet but mostly in Eastern Tibet (KHAM & AMDO province) burned all their Tiger skin.
www.rfa.org...
www.tew.org...
www.ens-newswire.com...
www.toftiger.org...
uk.oneworld.net...
www.careforthewild.org...

[edit on 31-10-2006 by Himalayan]

Mr Himalayan,

Can you asnwer ALL my points, you have only answered roughly 1/3 of my past two post

-Tibet had serfs and master but as i stated earler

You did not state anything worth noting.

You did say some things about bandits but you were and still are missing my point about serfs being in the feudal system of governmetn which was the actual topic. You merely are trying to analyze wording which has nothing to do with the feudalism.

I'll explain this thoughly only this once to you
"Before the china re-took tibet, it was under a fedual system of government where there were masters and slaves, quite like the times of the serfs in Russia pre-1917."

This is used as a general reference to the governemnt type tibet had inplace during the reign of the dalai lama. And i cannot say this enough, i did not mean tibet only had two types of people. You need to stop thinking in a two dimensional view of wording and dont need to stress out on it.

Hah, we were living fine untill China came in.

I have already quoted the figures of the amount of serfs in tibet compared to the nobility in tibet. You did not live in those times and you WOULDN"T HAVE A CLUE, the only non-bias accounts of the living conditions are from the first western exploration parties and from chinese records pre-1951 and post-1951. The only tibetian records are the sort of things you wouldn't even bother to read since they have not been recorded when they happen and they are from second third and sometimes even fourth hand sources

Tibet wasn't fine before china came, the vast majority of its people were enslaved to one of the 200 most powerful familes while the conditions and education in tibet would be only compared to the lowest third world countries in africa. A bad harvest could mean death for a huge amount of the people in tibet and the majority of your population was enslaved to the nobility class which was entitled to your children as well. They could be traded beaten to death or raped and there was no legal responsibility for the aristocracy.

Dont make me get started into women rights or working conditions

So you are saying that 150,000 Tibetans living in Exile are Aristrocrats?

I'll give you a lesson in wit, when you try to attack a person, make you sure are not the one which will look like the fool. Your figure for tibetians in exile are for the CURRENT situation while i have stated 1959. I doubt any of the aristocracy would be in china in the 1956-7-8-9 onwards when china started its campaign againest landlords. Imagine an abusive lama going to be lyched by the hundreds if not thousands of former oppressed

And i never said all the tibetians in exile were Aristocrats. I think you dont understand the meanings of a hierarchy or how it works. Its not simple black and white where there are two simple groups. There are words you can use to describe them.

PS Aristrocrats = Aristocrats

Have you ever to Tibet, My people cherishes Buddhism and support our Monasterery, We love our lamas, that is what makes us.

Unless you live in tibet or lived there for more than 20+ years. Your word does not mean a thing on the internet because you cannot talk on behalf of someone else. You my find, are probaly living in a western country (America?) maybe under 20 or a little over and probaly been to tibet once or not even at all.

It is a pure common sense that you don't ask an oppressor about the oppressed, you ask those who are oppressed.

Mis quoting Mr Martin Luther King should be considered a offence. What about if the oppressed were oppressed by the former oppressed?. Hard to quote Mr Martin Luther King for everything

Read this from a netural source like wikipedia, and this time, i mean read it very carefully

In 1953, the greater part of the rural population---some 700,000 of an estimated total population of 1,250,000---were serfs. Tied to the land, they were allotted only a small parcel to grow their own food. Serfs and other peasants generally went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for the monasteries and individual high-ranking lamas, or for a secular aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 families. In effect, they were owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. A serf might easily be separated from his family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death.

- My people are now minority in our own Land.
- My people now have no choice but to learn Chinese and try to fit in.
- China has and is systematically making my peoples identity useless and thus by doing so will erase our Identity in few generation if not stopped.

Here is some information from the UCLA, it is an american government insitution about asian stuides. It was not paid by the chinese government, its not located in china. Its just focused on the study of asian society and is independent

I love this quote most of all
""The problems of Tibetans are typical of minorities in the era of large modern states.""

Status of the Tibetan Language

Sautman also sought to rebut charges by Tibetan exiles that the Tibetan language is devalued and being replaced by Chinese. "92-94% of ethnic Tibetans speak Tibetan. The only exception is places in Qinghai and Amdo where the Tibetan population is very small compared with the broader population. Instruction in primary school is pretty universally in Tibetan. Chinese is bilingual from secondary school onward. All middle schools in the TAR also teach Tibetan. In Lhasa there are about equal time given to Chinese, Tibetan, and English." In contrast, Soutman said, "Tibetan exile leaders in India used English as the sole language until 1994 and only became bilingual in 1994. Schools in Tibet promote the Tibetan language more than Indian schools do in ethnic Tibetan areas--in Ladakh, India, instruction is in Urdu, with a high dropout rate from Tibetans, but India is never accused of cultural genocide against Tibetans."

Chinese in tibet and tibetian cultral change

It is true, he said, that there have been significant inroads of Chinese culture into Tibet since the forcible takeover in 1959, but there has been an even greater influx of Western culture. "By not defining cultural genocide the Tibetan exiles can label any changes from 1959 as cultural genocide, although many of these changes could be expected to have occurred without the issue of cultural genocide arising."

The most common specific charges raised by Tibetan exiles, Sautman said, "point to Han immigration plus restrictive birth policies. In fact the state sponsored transfer to Tibet is on a small scale. From 1994 to 2001 the PRC organized only a few thousand people to go to Tibet as cadres. Most serve only 3 years and then return to China. Those who move on their own to the Tibet Autonomous Region usually return to China in a few years. They come for a while, find the cities of Tibet too expensive, and then return to China. Some of the 72,000 Chinese who maintain their hukou [household registration] in Tibet don't really live there. Pensions are higher if your household is registered in Tibet. These facts are supported by Australian and U.S. demographers. Claims of ethnic swamping in Tibet are misleading."

www.international.ucla.edu...

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
China looks like a big bad bully in this one.

China always looks like the big bad bully to you. I can reference other threads about your opinoin if you want

The same old Propaganda repeated over & over!
------------------------------------------------------------
- The best representative of a culture are its people. In a case of colonized and oppressed, the oppressor often rewrites history. This is very true in the predicament that my people are in.

- Your pathetic attempt to hinder my peoples struggle for freedom and human rights will never succeed, ever. So go ahead, post the same propaganda, over and over again. People know when they are faced with lies, it is the type of vibe in your post that reeks of lies that people can pick up without much difficulties.


[edit on 1-11-2006 by Himalayan]

repost..


[edit on 1-11-2006 by Himalayan]

Originally posted by chinawhite


China always looks like the big bad bully to you. I can reference other threads about your opinoin if you want

China isn't a bully when it comes to Tibet?

Shooting at refugees leaving the country to see their exiled religious leader is not being a bully?

Is only the Japanese bullies to you?

Guys, this thread isn't about your fellow ats posters, its about an incident in which the chinese military shot some tibets, trying to leave china. Lets stick strictly to the topic, and not one another.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Guys, this thread isn't about your fellow ats posters, its about an incident in which the chinese military shot some tibets, trying to leave china. Lets stick strictly to the topic, and not one another.

- let me summarize this thread

Yes, unfortunately this incident just happen to be caught on video. If these soldiers have the nerve to shoot and kill Tibetan refugees (who are trying to flee) in front of many foreigner and sherpa's climber then imagine what happens in Tibet.
The seriousness of oppression on Tibetans in Tibet is nothing different than this. Even when Tibetan know of the dangers that exist from attempting to flee, Tibetans are constantly fleeing, this proves that Tibetans are oppressed to a degree that they risk their lives by fleeing.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Himalayan]

Originally posted by k4rupt
At least China didn't invade a little oil-rich nation which led to the deaths of over 600,000 innocent Iraqis now did it? Oops, gave my little riddle away...

Now I'm not saying this did NOT happen, but
.....................

....First of all several countries went to Iraq...second of all 600,000 Iraqi people were not killed by the coalition...

The death toll is less than 100,000, and many of those people were killed by "the insurgents/terrorists".... nice try.... and this is not even part of the discussion...

As for the Chinese government doing this, if they can kill their own people for being "too democratic", for not paying taxes, for being part of certain religions etc, I don't think they would have much remorse shooting Tibetan people trying to escape the Communist regime.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Muaddib]