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Chinese massacres Tibetan refugees

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posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by Himalayan

Originally posted by mobydog

Originally posted by Himalayan
I was born in India, lived there for 14 years.... the hardship that myself and my people have endured and still are, you can't just put them in some paragraphs...
You ask the oppressed about how they feel about their situation, NOT THE OPPRESSOR !
You mean ... India oppressed you ?? as you said.. you were borned in India and suffered for 14 years there and people there still suffering.. ??

What?, i'm saying hardship that comes when living in exile.
What's the difference.... you grew up in exile in India .. right ? That's what you said and that's what your original post implied..



I wonder, if the Chinese hasn't invaded, whether you would say the same thing - If you were to born in Tibet, and in Slave and serf family.. serving your master the Lama and family ?

Slave ? Serf ? my father side is farmer and my mother side is nomad, we live our own lives for our selves regardless of Monks and Lamas, we are not slave to anyone.
When we do something for monks, it is from our own Choice !
Your father was farming on whose land ? If it's not his... then a serf. If it's his then u really don't represent the slaves then.....which you said was your 'people'. Picky aren't we ??

How many times do i've to repeat, Slaves and Master is a very small part of the Tibet. Majority of Tibetans lives are not based on that. I'm not surprised to hear such things, as it is a repeated lies.
Nonetheless.. they exist. And I have the impression that thru centuries of acquisitions.. the Lamas and families would logically owns most of the lands. I admit I don't have the stats or answer. So why don't you tell me ... Why made you think the Slaves and masters are a very small part of old Tibet ??




On another note, as I understand it, one of the fundamental practice of Buddhism is to obstain from worldly desire... which include 'Power' and 'luxury' being the extreme... If that's the case, why are the Lamas running the country politically, and at the same time as a spirtual and religious leader? ... and owns slaves and lands ??? Conflict of interest ????


Theocratic govt is what Tibetan people are comfortable with and still are "BUT"in this day & age, such govt will be impossible to form & maintain, not to mention Tibetan ourselves would "NOT" be in favor for it.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Himalayan]
Very contradicting statement ... don't you think.. They are comfortable, but not in favour ? = reject, So I was, in part, right .. Thanks




posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by Himalayan
[ 1) Never have, I'm a Buddhist
2) Lets get back to the topic at hand....
i want to post replies to EVERYONE of yours and your comrades lies.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Himalayan]
If I'm part of who you're directing your post at... sorry kiddo... I'm pretty anti-ideological communist. Just that, I don't view orginary chinese as communist any more... and they are capitalistic as hell now.

Nowadays, I've woken up. I don't swallow everything that the main-stream western media dishes out as facts, immediately, too many times they had disguised propaganda as news.



posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 12:42 PM
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I was born in India, lived there for 14 years.... the hardship that myself and my people have endured and still are, you can't just put them in some paragraphs...
You ask the oppressed about how they feel about their situation, NOT THE OPPRESSOR !
You mean ... India oppressed you ?? as you said.. you were borned in India and suffered for 14 years there and people there still suffering.. ??
[quote
What?,I'm saying hardship that comes when living in exile.
What's the difference.... you grew up in exile in India..right ? That's what you said and that's what your original post implied..

- And why was i born in Exile? Thats where the difference is.We were driven to Exile because of the brutal invasion of Tibet, It was not by our choice to flee, we were forced.


I wonder, if the Chinese hasn't invaded, whether you would say the same thing - If you were to born in Tibet, and in Slave and serf family.. serving your master the Lama and family ?

Slave?Serf?my father side is farmer and my mother side is nomad, we live our own lives for our selves regardless of Monks and Lamas, we are not slave to anyone.
When we do something for monks, it is from our own Choice !
Your father was farming on whose land ? If it's not his... then a serf. If it's his then u really don't represent the slaves then.....which you said was your 'people'. Picky aren't we ??

How many times do i've to repeat, Slaves and Master is a very small part of the Tibet. Majority of Tibetans lives are not based on that. I'm not surprised to hear such things, as it is a repeated lies.

Nonetheless.. they exist. And I have the impression that thru centuries of acquisitions.. the Lamas and families would logically owns most of the lands. I admit I don't have the stats or answer. So why don't you tell me ... Why made you think the Slaves and masters are a very small part of old Tibet ??

- That is "ABSURD". What made me think you say? there are around 150,000 + Tibetans living in Exile. Are you claiming we are all descendent's of former Masters? What a ridiculous statement.
On top of that, Tibetans constantly flee, Our exile govt receive them in dharamsala. This is the truth. Why are they fleeing?Why are my people still fleeing since the invasion? and Shot down when they flee. Where is the Human right?





On another note, as I understand it, one of the fundamental practice of Buddhism is to obstain from worldly desire... which include 'Power' and 'luxury' being the extreme... If that's the case, why are the Lamas running the country politically, and at the same time as a spirtual and religious leader? ... and owns slaves and lands ??? Conflict of interest ????

Theocratic govt is what Tibetan people are comfortable with and still are "BUT"in this day & age, such govt will be impossible to form & maintain, not to mention Tibetan ourselves would "NOT" be in favor for it.
[edit on 3-11-2006 by Himalayan]
Very contradicting statement ... don't you think..They are comfortable, but not in favour ? = reject, So I was, in part, right.Thanks
- Contradicting statement?let me explain it to you because you are an outsider and obviously have no interest in the well beings of Tibetan.
1. This day an age, theocratic government simply will not work because the world has changed immensely.
2. Tibetans have changed.
3. We still cherish our spirituality but will not risk the potential predicament that we will face, if state and religion is mixed.
4. THE MOST IMPORTANTLY, We never ask for China intervention ! We are more than capable of improving our own country, theres simply no justification for China's act
5. Just look at the success of our govt in India. It is a democratic government, Tibetan children are educated in Science,Literature,philosophy,spirituality, & many more

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Himalayan]



posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by mobydog

Originally posted by Himalayan
[ 1) Never have, I'm a Buddhist
2) Lets get back to the topic at hand....
i want to post replies to EVERYONE of yours and your comrades lies.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by Himalayan]
If I'm part of who you're directing your post at... sorry kiddo... I'm pretty anti-ideological communist. Just that, I don't view orginary chinese as communist any more... and they are capitalistic as hell now.

Nowadays, I've woken up. I don't swallow everything that the main-stream western media dishes out as facts, immediately, too many times they had disguised propaganda as news.


that was directed to chinawhite, for some reason your sn got it there....
- I agree China has become a capitalist state, However it is still firmly grounded in communist ideology.
-This does not matter, as long as the people are suffering under the govt, that govt is at fault and people must take actions (peaceful activism) to change that, eventhough it may seem futile, every action has opposite and equal reaction, whethere it is good or bad... people just can't sit on their ass and wait for a more liberal state....

The complacent views that you guys hold will not improve China.....



posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 02:39 PM
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It's seemed rude, if I don't respond ... so...

Originally posted by Himalayan
- And why was i born in Exile? Thats where the difference is.We were driven to Exile because of the brutal invasion of Tibet, It was not by our choice to flee, we were forced.
The difference is that your parents probably suffered directly.. you not so much.. since you did indicate that Dharamsala is somewhat a paradise...

- That is "ABSURD". What made me think you say? there are around 150,000 + Tibetans living in Exile. Are you claiming we are all descendent's of former Masters? What a ridiculous statement.
Let's see.. before the communist invaded the tibet population was 1.2 million (as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong).... and under the ccp would be much higher (Just my guess).

The exile population now, as you said was 150,000++.. and this would include the third generation by now. and most of the first population would have died of old age by now (I consider 3/4) If I consider that a pair of exile were produced two child (Likely more). Therefore, by off-hand logical deduction.. the first generation of exile would be around 100,000, which is on the high side.

Now, I read somewhere that the elite population is 20% of the old Tibet 1.2 million population.. therefore I deduce that most of the exile are more likely from that class.

I know.. I know... all these is without scientific findings and based on deduction.. but still.. it's not without merits...


On top of that, Tibetans constantly flee, Our exile govt receive them in dharamsala. This is the truth. Why are they fleeing?Why are my people still fleeing since the invasion? and Shot down when they flee. Where is the Human right
Every country has immigrants.. pretty normal.. even Americans migrate. They does it for various reasons, indoctrinated, spoofed or religious reasons..

BTW, I am not defending the shooting.


- Contradicting statement?let me explain it to you because you are an outsider and obviously have no interest in the well beings of Tibetan.
1. This day an age, theocratic government simply will not work because the world has changed immensely.
2. Tibetans have changed.
3. We still cherish our spirituality but will not risk the potential predicament that we will face, if state and religion is mixed.
Compare this list with your other post about cultural invasion and destruction.. this is really a goner



4. THE MOST IMPORTANTLY, We never ask for China intervention ! We are more than capable of improving our own country, theres simply no justification for China's act
I read that there were treaties and historical facts that Tibet has always been a Chinese vassal state.. and was never independent.


5. Just look at the success of our govt in India. It is a democratic government, Tibetan children are educated in Science,Literature,philosophy,spirituality, & many more
Is the exile government democratic ? Please explain.

and is all tibetian children educated..? if so.. good for them.

Hey, the 'COMRADES'..
... Any idea how's the living condition at Dharamsala ???



posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 02:55 PM
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Himalayan, you haven't explain....


one of the fundamental practice of Buddhism is to obstain from worldly desire... which include 'Power' and 'luxury' being the extreme... If that's the case, why are the Lamas running the country politically, and at the same time as a spirtual and religious leader? ... and owns slaves and lands ??? Conflict of interest ????



posted on Nov, 3 2006 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by mobydog
Himalayan, you haven't explain....


one of the fundamental practice of Buddhism is to obstain from worldly desire... which include 'Power' and 'luxury' being the extreme... If that's the case, why are the Lamas running the country politically, and at the same time as a spirtual and religious leader? ... and owns slaves and lands ??? Conflict of interest ????



------------I want you to read this carefully----------------

1) We are "NOT" asking for Power ! We are "NOT" asking for Luxury !

2) As human beings we are asking for fundamental Human rights for all, Tibetan and Chinese ! How is this deviating from Buddhist practice ?

3) As human beings We are asking for equal opportunity for Tibetans in Tibet ! Also, how is this deviating from Buddhist practice ?

4) As human beings We are asking for preservation of our culture and unique identity! Again, how is this deviating from Buddhist practice ?

5) Lamas are not the only politicians, there are non-lama's who are politicians, Most politicians in our Exile govt are Non-Lamas.

6) Dalai Lama himself have announced many times that he does not wish to hold any political positions in a "Free Tibet" and that he only wishes to pursue his spirituality path. On top of that Dalai Lama have only spoke of compassion for each other, religious tolerance, universal harmony, human rights protected, and anything and everything that utilizes "peaceful dialogues" to solve conflicts
But since a "Free Tibet" is unlikely, he has announced many times that he considers himself as Semi-retired and that this struggle for retaining our Tibetan identity is not just his duty but also Tibetan people, therefore non-Lama politicians are welcomed and therefore are the majority and more commonly accepted (not that Tibetans view Lama politicians as negative & non-progressive path but because of mindset of todays Tibetan it just makes more sense for us to have non-lamas politicians)


[edit on 3-11-2006 by Himalayan]



posted on Nov, 4 2006 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by Himalayan
- No one has, but you are simply not wanting to look at the truth, look at the video and put aside your hatred and then judge it with your eyes and heart open


You dont watch the end of a movie and know what happen, do you?




Originally posted by Himalayan
i want to post replies to EVERYONE of yours and your comrades lies.


You can start with my previous posts
-------



-Tibet had serfs and master but as i stated earler


You did not state anything worth noting.

You did say some things about bandits but you were and still are missing my point about serfs being in the feudal system of governmetn which was the actual topic. You merely are trying to analyze wording which has nothing to do with the feudalism.

I'll explain this thoughly only this once to you
"Before the china re-took tibet, it was under a fedual system of government where there were masters and slaves, quite like the times of the serfs in Russia pre-1917."

This is used as a general reference to the governemnt type tibet had inplace during the reign of the dalai lama. And i cannot say this enough, i did not mean tibet only had two types of people. You need to stop thinking in a two dimensional view of wording and dont need to stress out on it.


Hah, we were living fine untill China came in.


I have already quoted the figures of the amount of serfs in tibet compared to the nobility in tibet. You did not live in those times and you WOULDN"T HAVE A CLUE, the only non-bias accounts of the living conditions are from the first western exploration parties and from chinese records pre-1951 and post-1951. The only tibetian records are the sort of things you wouldn't even bother to read since they have not been recorded when they happen and they are from second third and sometimes even fourth hand sources

Tibet wasn't fine before china came, the vast majority of its people were enslaved to one of the 200 most powerful familes while the conditions and education in tibet would be only compared to the lowest third world countries in africa. A bad harvest could mean death for a huge amount of the people in tibet and the majority of your population was enslaved to the nobility class which was entitled to your children as well. They could be traded beaten to death or raped and there was no legal responsibility for the aristocracy.

Dont make me get started into women rights or working conditions


So you are saying that 150,000 Tibetans living in Exile are Aristrocrats?


I'll give you a lesson in wit, when you try to attack a person, make you sure are not the one which will look like the fool. Your figure for tibetians in exile are for the CURRENT situation while i have stated 1959. I doubt any of the aristocracy would be in china in the 1956-7-8-9 onwards when china started its campaign againest landlords. Imagine an abusive lama going to be lyched by the hundreds if not thousands of former oppressed

And i never said all the tibetians in exile were Aristocrats. I think you dont understand the meanings of a hierarchy or how it works. Its not simple black and white where there are two simple groups. There are words you can use to describe them.

PS Aristrocrats = Aristocrats


Have you ever to Tibet, My people cherishes Buddhism and support our Monasterery, We love our lamas, that is what makes us.


Unless you live in tibet or lived there for more than 20+ years. Your word does not mean a thing on the internet because you cannot talk on behalf of someone else. You my find, are probaly living in a western country (America?) maybe under 20 or a little over and probaly been to tibet once or not even at all.


It is a pure common sense that you don't ask an oppressor about the oppressed, you ask those who are oppressed.


Mis quoting Mr Martin Luther King should be considered a offence. What about if the oppressed were oppressed by the former oppressed?. Hard to quote Mr Martin Luther King for everything

Read this from a netural source like wikipedia, and this time, i mean read it very carefully


In 1953, the greater part of the rural population---some 700,000 of an estimated total population of 1,250,000---were serfs. Tied to the land, they were allotted only a small parcel to grow their own food. Serfs and other peasants generally went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for the monasteries and individual high-ranking lamas, or for a secular aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 families. In effect, they were owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. A serf might easily be separated from his family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death.



- My people are now minority in our own Land.
- My people now have no choice but to learn Chinese and try to fit in.
- China has and is systematically making my peoples identity useless and thus by doing so will erase our Identity in few generation if not stopped.


Here is some information from the UCLA, it is an american government insitution about asian stuides. It was not paid by the chinese government, its not located in china. Its just focused on the study of asian society and is independent

I love this quote most of all
""The problems of Tibetans are typical of minorities in the era of large modern states.""


Status of the Tibetan Language

Sautman also sought to rebut charges by Tibetan exiles that the Tibetan language is devalued and being replaced by Chinese. "92-94% of ethnic Tibetans speak Tibetan. The only exception is places in Qinghai and Amdo where the Tibetan population is very small compared with the broader population. Instruction in primary school is pretty universally in Tibetan. Chinese is bilingual from secondary school onward. All middle schools in the TAR also teach Tibetan. In Lhasa there are about equal time given to Chinese, Tibetan, and English." In contrast, Soutman said, "Tibetan exile leaders in India used English as the sole language until 1994 and only became bilingual in 1994. Schools in Tibet promote the Tibetan language more than Indian schools do in ethnic Tibetan areas--in Ladakh, India, instruction is in Urdu, with a high dropout rate from Tibetans, but India is never accused of cultural genocide against Tibetans."



Chinese in tibet and tibetian cultral change

It is true, he said, that there have been significant inroads of Chinese culture into Tibet since the forcible takeover in 1959, but there has been an even greater influx of Western culture. "By not defining cultural genocide the Tibetan exiles can label any changes from 1959 as cultural genocide, although many of these changes could be expected to have occurred without the issue of cultural genocide arising."

The most common specific charges raised by Tibetan exiles, Sautman said, "point to Han immigration plus restrictive birth policies. In fact the state sponsored transfer to Tibet is on a small scale. From 1994 to 2001 the PRC organized only a few thousand people to go to Tibet as cadres. Most serve only 3 years and then return to China. Those who move on their own to the Tibet Autonomous Region usually return to China in a few years. They come for a while, find the cities of Tibet too expensive, and then return to China. Some of the 72,000 Chinese who maintain their hukou [household registration] in Tibet don't really live there. Pensions are higher if your household is registered in Tibet. These facts are supported by Australian and U.S. demographers. Claims of ethnic swamping in Tibet are misleading."


www.international.ucla.edu...



posted on Nov, 4 2006 @ 04:57 AM
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Shame on you, do you have shred of compassion?


Compassion?

I'm not going to believe reports from tibetian nationalist which have a bone to pick with the tibetian government. The reports you have read are completely exaggerated on the same lines as the tibetian eye-witness who mysteriously saw 15minutes of shooting while actual video showed only two shots being fired.

I think you are the one brain washed to completely believe the tibetian side. If you want to know why im not brain washed in comparison to you, i will tell you that my line is not the PRC line and have have made my own opinion based on the facts that i have seen presented by each side.

Notice how the tibetians only have "indiviual statements" instead of edvidence or proof like photos or physcial dead bodies of masscares. There were some tibetian sites stating that the chinese government was forcing tibetians to do all these strange acts which is un-charateristic of chinese culture, eg making people dance on a dead person grave (which is considered a grave offence to chinese). I wonder why i dont show compassion



How does that justify what China is doing? Did i ever said What America did was right?


Firstly do you have proof of anything?. As you should be aquiated, innocent until proven guilty

Secondly, you said america was a demoracy yet it has commited all these acts. SO the question whcih comes to my mind is where should the standard be set or who is the judge to these acts?. I know for a fact that tibetians are telling chinese soldiers to get out of china so they can become a independent country or whatever. Why should china do anything when a western country is doing the same thing while it is labeled to have morals


To this i will call you a Liar.


A liar is should who has not told the truth, yet you are the one which are making statements without any edvidence. You can call me a liar all you want, without any proof means you are just ranting to anyone who will listen



The 17 point agreement is forced by CCP


Which you signed so easily in a matter of days. Now i'll ask you a question which treaty is not forced?

Which treaties have been agreed on with the majority of the repective populations involving land claims?. You make it out as if treaties western or non-western are some type of "fair" agreement which guarantees a "live happily after" situation. Not the case, you "king" the dalai lama and his offical representatives signed off your country with offcial consent. More than enough for the international community.

Or if you want to break this treaty, there are a lot more treaties that would have been broken after this one


China pays some Western Scholars and so called Tibtologist to write an extemely biased report on Tibet and Tibetans and give talk shows in other countries


Im a liar, now i talk out of my mouth?. Sounds like someone has trouble hearing things he doesn't like. Instead of actually attacking the person, why dont you try to disprove anything i have said.

I resent you comments about china paying Scholars or your so called "Tibtologist", because its the tibetians who are doing the people relations campaign. Their websites about the so called "tibetian" lifestyle or about chinese brutality are all propaganda created by tibetians. This pales in comparision china has ever done



by walking infront? btw it was a nun


Walking in front?

The story goes that the tibetians assualted the small group of chinese soldiers. The video does not show 70 people, which suggest that some people waited behind and didn't take the trek yet. They got into a fight with the chinese border guard at a checkpoint before that crossing and then tried to run away. You act as if they were walking out and didn't do anything.

If wouldn't matter if it was the pope that got shot, the group commited a crime of assualt againest paid representatives of the PRC government. In american, they would have got shot as well. I can provide video of that if you want


By shooting at childrens, monks, and nun?


Notice you left out saying men, why was that?. You wanted to increase your story?. The fact is, the last person or the first person in a 20 person column just happened to be a nun,

They shot at a column and did not aim to shoot at children, monks and a nun. They just happened to be in the column. The complete details of the story and even now are so sketchy that their purpose was travelling in that direction was unknown. Even the number being shot at was not even rightly reported. 70 people got arrested not shot at. If they were crossing a check point in palestine or iraq with western controlled guards, they most likey would have been shot on approch.

If these tibetians were prosucted so much, why didn't they leave for another part of china, where they could find some work and live unprosocuted lives in the cities of china. Instead they sit there and do nothing, expecting the chinese government to give them money or make their children go to school.

Tibetians have the highest concentrations of monks person citizen comapred to any place in the work. It being 1:35 compared to otehr countries where the ratio is sometimes 1:1000. And these consider this contailing their religion?. Like i have said before, this is more to do with religion


Originally posted by Himalayan
My people have been and still are fleeing because we are oppressed under Chinese rule and they are getting shot at and killed because China wants to keep a lid on the Tibet issue, they don't want the world to know what they have done and still are doing in Tibet.


Why is the chinese promoting tourism in tibet if they are trying to keep a lid on their supposed crimes?

Why dont they pick up the phone and call green peace, instead of trying to assualt a border guard and cross the highest mountain range in the world?. Why dont they take a picture of this and then send it to Richard Gere?. Why dont they tell their stories to the western tourist who comes to the tibet regualry?



posted on Nov, 4 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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I find it a joke that when posters from countries that have something against their country are in total denial.....even with video proof.

I know my country does some bad things and I get disgusted at that.

But to deny and spin is a sad lacking of thinking, and diminshes future posts.

People were shot of the Tibetan border and china did try to cover it up.



posted on Nov, 4 2006 @ 02:05 PM
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chinawhite you want Proof beside from what Tibetans themselves have to say?

Internatinal Commissions of Jurist has something to say:
About them: The International Commission of Jurists is dedicated to the primacy, coherence and implementation of international law and principles that advance human rights.

What distinguishes the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) is its impartial, objective and authoritative legal approach to the protection and promotion of human rights through the rule of law.

The ICJ provides legal expertise at both the international and national levels to ensure that developments in international law adhere to human rights principles and that international standards are implemented at the national level.

The Commission was founded in Berlin in 1952 and its membership is composed of sixty eminent jurists who are representatives of the different legal systems of the world. Based in Geneva, the International Secretariat is responsible for the realisation of the aims and objectives of the Commission. In carrying out its work, the International Secretariat benefits from a network of autonomous national sections and affiliated organisations located in all continents.

Awards recognising the ICJ's contributions to the promotion and protection of human rights include the first European Human Rights Prize by the Council of Europe, the Wateler Peace Prize, the Erasmus Prize, and the United Nations Award for Human Rights.
----------------------------
The International Commission of Jurists has not yet commented on the situation in Tibet because it was anxious to make certain of the facts of the case. I was asked by the Commission to investigate the matter on the spot and especially the legal and human rights aspects of the case. It was with this mandate that I organized a team of experts to examine closely and objectively -- as lawyers -- the Tibetan situation. After two months of work, we have completed the preliminary part of the investigation. We have collected documents, interviewed people and reliable witnesses from Tibet and studied the events as reported by the press and radio -- including the Chinese press and radio. These materials have been turned over to the International Commission of Jurists. They have been examined and scrutinized. On the basis of this, the Commission has taken certain decisions and I have been asked by the Commission to convey those decisions to you

-----So go ahead read on www.icj.org...
----------------------------


----------------------------

According to Adama Dieng (Senegal), Secretary-General of the International Commission of Jurists, a leading Geneva-based human rights group, the UN report provides "strong evidence of a pattern of gross violations of the rights of the Tibetan people, particularly their rights to practice their religion and culture."

www.icj.org...

----------------------------

There is prima facie evidence that the Chinese Communists have by acts of genocide attempted to destroy the Tibetan nation and the Buddhist religion in Tibet, the International Commission of Jurists announced in a preliminary report "The Question of Tibet and The Rule of Law" published here today. There is evidence, the report states, that the Chinese have by killing Tibetans and by the forcible removal of Tibetan children committed acts contrary to the Genocide Convention of 1948. There is also evidence that these acts were intentionally directed towards the destruction of the Tibetan religion and the Tibetan nation. The 208-page report, which also considers the evidence on other violations of human rights and examines the international status of Tibet, has been sent to the United Nations and to all U. N. delegations.

www.icj.org...
----------------------------



posted on Nov, 4 2006 @ 03:59 PM
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Okay, 99% of people here have NO IDEA how TIbet was like before the PRC. Do you honestly think Tibetans were living in utter bliss and happiness?

Here are some accounts by TIBETANS who have lived while under the feudal society of Tibet before China.

Torture and Mutilation

In the Dalai Lama's Tibet, torture and mutilation---including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation--were favored punishments inflicted upon runaway serfs and thieves. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: "When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion."16 Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in the freezing night to die. "The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking," concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet.17

The Chinese Communists occupied Tibet in 1951, claiming suzerainty over that country. The 1951 treaty provided for ostensible self-government under the Dalai Lama's rule but gave China military control and exclusive right to conduct foreign relations. The Chinese were also granted a direct role in internal administration "to promote social reforms." At first, they moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion in an attempt to effect change. Among the earliest reforms they wrought was to reduce usurious interest rates, and build a few hospitals and roads. "Contrary to popular belief in the West," writes one observer, the Chinese "took care to show respect for Tibetan culture and religion." No aristocratic or monastic property was confiscated, and feudal lords continued to reign over their hereditarily bound peasants.21

Enter the Communists

Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese in Tibet, after 1959 they did abolish slavery and the serfdom system of unpaid labor, and put an end to floggings, mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal punishment. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular education, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in LhasaIn 1996, the Dalai Lama issued a statement that must have had an unsettling effect on the exile community. It reads in part as follows:

Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis and the equitable utilization of the means of production. It is also concerned with the fate of the working classes-that is the majority---as well as with the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and Marxism cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and it seems fair. . . I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist.

And more recently in 2001, while visiting California, he remarked that "Tibet, materially, is very, very backward. Spiritually it is quite rich. But spirituality can't fill our stomachs." Here is a message that should be heeded by the well-fed Buddhist proselytes in the West who wax nostalgic for Old Tibet.

www.michaelparenti.org...


Let's all be enlightened and NOT dwell on the WIDESPREAD Western misconception and B.S. Seriously though, you don't have to read anything; believe what you want, dwell in your bubble of ignorance ABOUT the PRC that so many of your fellow citizens haeve chosen to do...



[edit on 4-11-2006 by k4rupt]



posted on Nov, 4 2006 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by k4rupt
PERENTI
[edit on 4-11-2006 by k4rupt]


- Parenti is suppose to be protecting Tibetans, yet why are my peoples testimonies, statements are opposite of what he is stating?

- He is an outsider with no interest of learning my culture & livelyhood. His views are "Completely" incorrect with how My peoples view our society and life in pre 1950 are

- Parenti like others, they cannot properly judge my people condition of living during pre 1950s when they themselves have not lived with my people inside or outside Tibet to get real/honest view on how we view our daily lives.

- Do they speak Tibetan ? Do you Speak Tibetan ?

- The first step to understand anothers culture for anyone is to learn & speak the language to the native people on which they are supposedly writing books on !

- Parentis and alikes are nothing but pro-Chinese invasion of my country ! Their statements are not based on how we actually live our lives.



- If my people hated how they lived before 1950s, then why in the hell would we start building monastery in mid 1980s when China for little bit relaxed their policy in Tibet !

- If China Liberated Tibetan as Perenti Claims, then why are my people constantly fleeing to Nepal then to India ?
WHY WHY WHY ! You tell me this !


The answer is in my previous post.
- So go & read the reports by INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION OF JURISTS

[edit on 4-11-2006 by Himalayan]



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by Himalayan

Originally posted by mobydog
Himalayan, you haven't explain....


one of the fundamental practice of Buddhism is to obstain from worldly desire... which include 'Power' and 'luxury' being the extreme... If that's the case, why are the Lamas running the country politically, and at the same time as a spirtual and religious leader? ... and owns slaves and lands ??? Conflict of interest ????


You are not answering my query in the correct context....


------------I want you to read this carefully----------------

1) We are "NOT" asking for Power ! We are "NOT" asking for Luxury !
Are you a Lama ?? and Lamas are , in fact, monks practising Buddhism right ??


2) As human beings we are asking for fundamental Human rights for all, Tibetan and Chinese ! How is this deviating from Buddhist practice ?

3) As human beings We are asking for equal opportunity for Tibetans in Tibet ! Also, how is this deviating from Buddhist practice ?

4) As human beings We are asking for preservation of our culture and unique identity! Again, how is this deviating from Buddhist practice ?

5) Lamas are not the only politicians, there are non-lama's who are politicians, Most politicians in our Exile govt are Non-Lamas.
But there are Lama politicians right ??


6) Dalai Lama himself have announced many times that he does not wish to hold any political positions in a "Free Tibet" and that he only wishes to pursue his spirituality path. On top of that Dalai Lama have only spoke of compassion for each other, religious tolerance, universal harmony, human rights protected, and anything and everything that utilizes "peaceful dialogues" to solve conflicts
But since a "Free Tibet" is unlikely, he has announced many times that he considers himself as Semi-retired and that this struggle for retaining our Tibetan identity is not just his duty but also Tibetan people, therefore non-Lama politicians are welcomed and therefore are the majority and more commonly accepted (not that Tibetans view Lama politicians as negative & non-progressive path but because of mindset of todays Tibetan it just makes more sense for us to have non-lamas politicians)
[edit on 3-11-2006 by Himalayan]
Ok, so Dalai Lama says that he does not wish to holds any political position in the free tibet, but since that is not possible, he considered himself semi-retired... That's politician talk... saying and doing is two different things... his still a politician. As for compassion... it took them centuries for the Lamas to finally explore it.... never to late I guess.


- If my people hated how they lived before 1950s, then why in the hell would we start building monastery in mid 1980s when China for little bit relaxed their policy in Tibet !
Building temples for religion believes.. and believes of living under Slaves and Masters society are two different things.

One just can't say ' Hey, my fellow tibetians, I have changed my ways, sorry for the centuries of oppression, Trust me, let me return as a political and spiritual leader, I will ensure the Indians and C!A will finance our country.. they will built military bases for our defense. They will not, I repeat they will not, meddle and try to steer our internal policies. There will be no influx our indian and western cultures and influence, and most importantly, they will support our return to our old Tibet ways... '

Call it a prediction or fore-sight if you wish.... but it's not far from the likely reality.



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 02:42 AM
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Get to my posts and stop diverting this thread.


Originally posted by Himalayan
chinawhite you want Proof beside from what Tibetans themselves have to say?


And these same tibetians are not living in tibet, and these same tibetians have probaly not been to tibet in the last 20 years



What distinguishes the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) is its impartial, objective and authoritative legal approach to the protection and promotion of human rights through the rule of law.


Damn, you dont know how to play this game do you?

Ask yourself what is their agenda, they have even given you a introduction, they are basically another HR group which differs from normal ones bbecause they supposedly do it in a "legal way". And if you dont understand what this means i'll tell you if you want to know



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 03:02 AM
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Good god, never ending battle. Some of you wont even stop attacking me after I rant about my own government being worse then you'res in many ways on u2u. Himalayan has some good points, maybe a nice review of the thread is needed.

Thing is about Tibet, the Kingdom of Tibet mind you, was around sinec 600 CE, and majority were buddhist This is not the first time in history its had this happen to itself, example of which would be a British diplomatic mission led by Colonel Francis Younghusband killed 1300 tibetans in Gyam-Tse. Wouldnt be suprised what happens after that, but tibet was a very very unique place, nazi's went there in search for something, Something about tibet that is mysterous you know. Those video of the temples of the mountians and the dark clouds really give me a chill though.

Anyways I believe alot of the tibetians went to aksai chin and formed a haven there, since you know were kind of uhh not allowed to do the things they were taught to do from age week one. Oh the humanity.



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 03:05 AM
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FREE Tibet...

You will get no argument from me. My sympathy goes out to the Tibetan peoples'. I do not support the 2008 Olympics in China.
This is horrific to watch.

What an appalling, sad situation.



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Himalayan

Originally posted by k4rupt
PERENTI
[edit on 4-11-2006 by k4rupt]


- Parenti is suppose to be protecting Tibetans, yet why are my peoples testimonies, statements are opposite of what he is stating?

- He is an outsider with no interest of learning my culture & livelyhood. His views are "Completely" incorrect with how My peoples view our society and life in pre 1950 are

- Parenti like others, they cannot properly judge my people condition of living during pre 1950s when they themselves have not lived with my people inside or outside Tibet to get real/honest view on how we view our daily lives.

- Do they speak Tibetan ? Do you Speak Tibetan ?


- The first step to understand anothers culture for anyone is to learn & speak the language to the native people on which they are supposedly writing books on !

Do I have to speak Tibetan to understand bodily mutilation, feudal society, and poverty?


- Parentis and alikes are nothing but pro-Chinese invasion of my country ! Their statements are not based on how we actually live our lives.

haha, okay... right.


- If my people hated how they lived before 1950s, then why in the hell would we start building monastery in mid 1980s when China for little bit relaxed their policy in Tibet !

- If China Liberated Tibetan as Perenti Claims, then why are my people constantly fleeing to Nepal then to India ?
WHY WHY WHY ! You tell me this !




The answer is in my previous post.
- So go & read the reports by INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION OF JURISTS

[edit on 4-11-2006 by Himalayan]
.

Haha, okay. That's right, great way of denying ignorance - DON'T argue against any of the things I posted and instead attack Perenti. Just because he stated something YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR, doesn't mean hes evil Himalyan... Gosh, don't be so ignorant.

You see what I mean? I post the arguments and EVERYONE here IGNORES it and goes ranting about how Tibet should be free. Instead, READ WHAT I POST and get out of your ignorant anti-China bubble. It's very simple, just give it a read...

That IS the truth Himaylan... the Chinese got rid of the feudal society in which punishments included BODILY MUTILATION... people's eyes were gouged out for stealing food because they were so poor. The Chinese brought education, jobs, food, electricity... before people were living in times similar to the Dark Ages in Europe.

Don't be ignorant, DENY IGNORANCE. Himalayan, we both know you wuoldn't want your people to live in a situation pre-PRC.

Here's another great read from the WASHINGTON POST.


Many ordinary Tibetans want the Dalai Lama back in their country, but it appears that relatively few want a return to the social order he represented. A 1999 story in the Washington Post notes that he continues to be revered in Tibet, but

. . . few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of his advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in surrendering the land they gained during China's land reform to the clans. Tibet's former slaves say they, too, don't want their former masters to return to power.
"I've already lived that life once before," said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the Dalai Lama, but added, "I may not be free under Chinese communism, but I am better off than when I was a slave."


Now what are you gonna do Himaylayn? Accuse the Washington post of being "pro-China?" LOL!

[edit on 5-11-2006 by k4rupt]



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 01:04 PM
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Regardless of what you pro-Chinese invasion of Tibet say, My people will respect our native culture, and care more about our own history, culture, solidarity, and
identity than allegiance to Beijing -- this is 'the most" embarrassing thing for the Chinese communist party and everyone knows that.



-ATS folks can and will read this thread and decide for themselve whether China invasion of my country Tibet is justified or not


The world sees and knows that the best representative of a culture are its people, so whatever you guys blast at me will not do anything but furthur proofs my people are still suffering under Chinas rule

[edit on 5-11-2006 by Himalayan]



posted on Nov, 5 2006 @ 09:00 PM
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I never said you guys shouldn't have your own culture, but you CANT deny that Tibetans ARE living better under China than before under the aristocratic feudal system.

Just read it - if you don't believe Parenti (and bash him for being Pro-China) then I posted a source by the Washington Times. Lol, I don't think you can bash the Washington Times for being "pro-China" can you.

Face the facts, Tibet was # before China came along. China ended bodily mutilation, a corrupt feudal system, poverty; lack of education, fresh water, electricity,and food.

China invested BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars to make Tibet a liveable place - far from that similar to the Dark Ages in Europe BEFORE the PRC... Even the Dalai Lama has acknowledged this many times before and Tibetans throughout China are acknowledging as well.


If you missed it, according to the WASHINGTON TIMES:

. . . few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of his advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in surrendering the land they gained during China's land reform to the clans. Tibet's former slaves say they, too, don't want their former masters to return to power.
"I've already lived that life once before," said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the Dalai Lama, but added, "I may not be free under Chinese communism, but I am better off than when I was a slave."



[edit on 5-11-2006 by k4rupt]

[edit on 5-11-2006 by k4rupt]



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