Muslim leader: It's the woman's fault who is raped. She's "uncovered meat"

Originally posted by riley
My anger over this issue is because a man IMO is trying to incite rape against white women.

I think we should express our anger towards this man for his words if he indeed did incite rape against white women. However, his words do not incite anyone to rape women as I explained earlier. He was telling that women in hijab are less prone to rape than 'uncovered meat'. He used some bad examples to show the comparison which were taken literally as his words. Again, I urge everyone to read the original arabic speech and post it here. Maybe then we could get some arabic speaking person to translate it for us. In any case, the translation never implied that he incited muslim men to go and rape women.

When he said women, it meant all women, not just 'white women'. How did people come to assume that the mufti incited muslim men to go and rape uncovered white women. And he never even said that its the muslim men who rape uncovered women and spare the hijab covered women. He included all men in that. And we all know there have been numerous cases of this in the past, where the rapist tries to reverse the blame on the women. And guess what, the men were not just muslims.

So unless the mufti himself has raped a woman and then tried to justify it, no one should be claiming that he should be jailed, hanged, deported, etc.......We can just disagree with his views and move on. Isnt that the same advice given to all muslims when someone insults Islam.

Originally posted by riley
As a woman that is enough to be bloody angry over..

As a muslim, P and D words and cartoons were also enough to be bloody angry over....

Originally posted by riley
are the race rapes going to start up again? I don't know.. but this has the potential to inspire extreamists to 'prove his point' about white women.

Now you did exactly the same thing you accuse other of. When did anyone try to prove the mufti's views or opinions. Some people are trying to get a better understanding of his words and why he would say it and what maybe he was trying to say. This does not mean that someone is trying to prove his points. I already explained my version of his words. The same sentences can be interpreted in different ways. And his whole speech was in arabic.

Originally posted by riley
Hell.. some might try scaring women into converting like sep 11. Rape has been used as a weapon of war for centuries.. for those who believe in jihad and blowing people up they might see it has an alternative metohod of terrorism.

There you go, off topic. Scaring women into converting???......lol......OOOOOOO run from the scary muslim man with his penis hanging out. He will either rape you or convert u......OOOOOOOOOO!!!

Jihad and blowing people up? Its funny how you use that as synonymous. Shows again that you dont have the knowledge of Islam as you claim to.

Originally posted by riley
It scares me and the last spate of race rapes was almost milatary in the way it was organised. White women.. all women have ample reason to be afraid and pissed right off.
I would be just as irritated if the pope said something similar.. he's been offensive before but hasn't said that though.

Pope did say something similar. As I already explained. Mufti 'insulted' women. Pope 'insulted' muslims. Reagrdless of issues and views, you have to agree that millions were insulted in both cases. So who decides one is justified and the other is not?

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Riley does your anger over the rape of women........................................And by the way I'm a white middle class catholic.

MagicMushroom, you have said in a simple paragraph what I havent been able to say in lots of long posts. APPLAUSE!

I am voting you for way above award.

This is absolute proof that islam is a disgusting and backwards religion that should be banned. If anyone admits to following Islam, they should be killed. We will not tolerate Muslims any more!

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
Good point, here are some examples of Hindu treatment of women:

Link

Link

As far as the first link is concerned: There is domestic abuse in all societies. I just wonder whether the Hindus' religious texts, like Islam, support the subjugation of women.

As far as the second link is concerned: That article addresses violence againdt women world-wide; NOT Hindu violence. And if you read the footnotes, you'd see that the majority of worldwide violence against women is happening in Islamic countries. Thanks for supporting the truth about Islam.

[edit on 29-10-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Riley does your anger over the rape of women only extend to white women or all women.

All women.

Iraqi women who are being raped by US/UK forces they dont count do they as they are Muslims.

They 'don't count' in this instance because this thread is not about them.. my not mentioning them does not mean I don't care about them. It means I'm actually staying ON TOPIC.

Yet again you acuse me of supporting what this man said, i dont support what he said but in a democracy people have a right to speak,

Well if you don't support what he said.. why did you keep trying to say he was 'mistranslated? You were defending HIM and HIS WORDS.. not free speach. Hell.. you even had the audacity to call me racist because I condemn him.

if a person breaks any laws then the authorities have a right to deal with that person do they not.

AGAIN.. there are laws against hate speeched in my country.

obviously your a supporter of dictatorships and despots.

Please stop saying stupid, unfounded statements about me.

And I called you one of the emotional thought police not to shut you up but to show you that your interpretation of free speech is what you and like minded people think it is.

What? Free speach is saying something.. and having to hear other people voice their reactions. If he doesn't like being condemned.. he shouldn't preach hate and violence.

In other words people can say what you allow them to say, there is to much of this going on the high and mighty preaching to the rest of us what we can and cannot think as it may offend your delicate ears.

I have the right to exist without fear of being raped just because I am not muslim. To me it was a verbal threat to all non muslim women.. and to any muslim women who choose not to wear the habbibs.

Its alright for the UK/US to murder women in Iraq and Afganistan,

Where did I say it's alright? You're accusing again. Please refrain from doing this.. I've been talking about australian women.. this subject is NOT about women in Iraq and Aghanastan, but since you mentioned it.. the muslim friends I mentioned earlier come from there. They came to Austraila to get away from the taliban [it seems to have followed them ].

and Iran soon

Actually, when I was younger I had a very close friend that came from Iran.. her father and brother were murdered [which meant the goverment inherited the mansion] and they escaped to Australia. They taught me alot about their culture and struggles.
BTW.. since when are US and UK troops going to Iran? Have you seen top secret plans that confirms that they are or something? ..or are you just making stuff up again? Stick to facts please.. actually sticking to the actual topic at hand would be much appreciated.

that obviously dosent bother you

I've never mentioned this imaginary invasion of Iran.. and why ..when talking about Australian politics should problems of other countries suddenly take priority lest I get called racist? When I feel like talking about them.. I will visit one of the other threads.
I wonder if those threads are filled with "But what about poor Australia that has nothing to do with what we are talking about?"

but the rantings of one man do,

Not just one man.. another cleric [terror suspect] made similar comments on the radio.

talk about being hypocritical.

Where is the hypocricy? Because I wouldn't change the subject and talk about other countries? Thats not hypocricy.. it's called keeping within ATS guidelines.

But I dont blame you, your scared, you believe all the lies from Bush/Blair and Co

Er.. NEITHER of them are my president or my PM. We have our own polititians and believe it or not not everyone on the planet even cares about US/UK politics.. I don't take any of the bs they spout seriously. AGAIN do not make unfounded statements about me. You are just firing blind hoping you hit a nerve and only damaging your own credibility in the process.

of all them nasty Muslims wanting to take over the world, thats whats hidden in your double speak and people like you, pretending to be one thing but are something else.

I don't 'double speak'.. and I don't pretend. I pride myself in being honest as I see no point in being dishonest. It's counterproductive.

And by the way I'm a white middle class catholic.

So? Is this suppose to be like a 'sixth sense' moment..?
Perhaps you would prefer talking about the pope covering up the rapes of children instead? You'll have to do it in another thread though. Strange.. if you don't speak arabic.. why are you so adament he must have been misquoted?

Originally posted by half_minded

Here comes the double standard. When the pope, or the danish cartoonist express their opinion, then they are practicising freedom of speech. when the mufti says something, then he is a terrorist. Hypocricy at its highest.

When the pope or Danish cartoonist expressed their opinions, how much property was damaged and people murdered by angry riotous Muslims? How many people were murdered and property damaged by angry rioutous non-Muslims because of what this Mufti said? The important difference, half_minded, as that apparently, Muslims don't believe anyone has the freedom to criticize Islam or their prophet Mohammed (as evidenced by the riots and murders) yet this Mufti clearly has the freedom to say what he wants without the fear of being murdered. No one has to like what he says. Yep--you definitely highlighted Islam's double-standard!

Originally posted by half_minded
Arrest the pope for calling Islam violent and causing an outrage which led to riots. Afterall, it was his words that caused the riots to occur in the first place.

Arrest the danish cartoonist for drawing religiously insulting cartoons and causing an outrage which led to riots. Afterall, it was his words that caused the riots to occur in the first place.

So; by your logic half_minded, if you insult me and I kill you; you caused your own murder? Or are you just being toungue-in-cheek?

Originally posted by half_minded
Anyone who claims that mufti's words are an insult to all women and blah blah blah. What about the pope's words? They were an insult to all muslims which include women, men and children.

No one has the right to NOT be offended or insulted; including women in response to this Mufti, or Muslims in response to cartoons. That's really what this is about. The problem with the notion that you shouldn't offend is that it assumes that I, or anyone, can predict the sensibilites of another; that I can somehow know beforehand what you will be insulted by. This is impossible because everyone has a different threshold of sensibilities.

If I make the statement here: "Thats about as dumb as a red-headed step child" and you happened to be a red-headed step child, you'd likely be insulted by my statement. But does that mean you should kill me or damage my property? How am I supposed to know that you're a red-headed step child? What if I knew you were a red-headed step child? Who cares? In any case, you have the option to "ignore" me or not read my posts. The important difference is that it's not a crime for me to say this but it is a crime for you to damage my property or kill me. Many Muslims, it seems, don't realize this.

What is the point in arguing this? It seems as if there must be a solution niggling away in certain peoples minds? Hmmm a "Final solution" perhaps? This guy is an idiot, but you can't wage war on religion ffs! Yeah moan, gripe whatever, but we can't just latch on to what some idiot said like as if it's Islam personified. Muslims feel very (understandably) vulnerable right now, especially considering reactions like this.
What do you suggest we do? (appart from compalin) Hmmm? Is there an answer? Is it perhaps justification for the blatant "racist" (ahem *cough* oil *cough*) war which is being fought? Who stands to gain? Is the propoganda so strong that we make our own? If you just want an excuse to hate Muslims,, say it and stop pussy footing around.

X

[edit on 29-10-2006 by Xeros]

Muslims elected that man to be in such a position and to 'voice' their concerns and beliefs in the Islamic faith. To say that muslims are now a victim of this man would be complete non-sense. Infact to me it only sheds light on the 'true meaning of Islam."


[edit on 29-10-2006 by laiguana]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
When the pope or Danish cartoonist expressed their opinions, how much property was damaged and people murdered by angry riotous Muslims? How many people were murdered and property damaged by angry rioutous non-Muslims because of what this Mufti said? The important difference, half_minded, as that apparently, Muslims don't believe anyone has the freedom to criticize Islam or their prophet Mohammed (as evidenced by the riots and murders) yet this Mufti clearly has the freedom to say what he wants without the fear of being murdered. No one has to like what he says. Yep--you definitely highlighted Islam's double-standard!

So how many women were raped due to the mufti's words?

Many muslims do feel that people should not blatantly criticize Islam or the prophet. Why shudnt they?
If someone standing outside your house called ur wife a whore while it is being popularized in the neighbourhood that she is a whore. What would u do?

options: Ignore, get angry, politely ask the accuser to go away, exchange unpleasent words with the accuser, fist fight with him, etc.

Just like the muslims have various reactions to the the P and D's opinions.

I never supported either P and D or the mufti but I wanna show the clear hypocricy of the people. and I think its crystal clear.

Freedom of speech should either apply to everyone or no one. Choose one. There is no freedom of speech with conditions unless everyone agrees to follow them. Which ofcourse is not the case.

Not to forget that the media only highlights 'muslim' riots and blows it out of porportions and gives false views.

Example: When muslims were shown celebrating after 9/11. Turns out that was false. Muslims were celebrating something entirely different at a different time, yet the media portrayed them as celebrating attacks on America.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
So; by your logic half_minded, if you insult me and I kill you; you caused your own murder? Or are you just being toungue-in-cheek?

Nice try at twisting my words but I was obviously talking the opposite in context with earlier statement about hypocricy.

You forget one very important thing. Self Defense. If someone attacks you and if you kill them you can get away with self defense. You could show that my insults were 'threats' to me. And you can present witnesses to show that I attacked you first. In that case, you would have killed me but still escape punishment for murder.

Dont twist my words and try to prove ur point in an irrelevant manner.

I was talking to all the people that said that mufti should be arrested or deported or some action be taken against him.
These people should go and do the same to P and D. Only then its justified. Both pope and mufti are religious authorities and therefore everything they say should be held against them.
Pope insulted Islam, he should be jailed or deported. Mufti insulted womnen, he should be jailed or deported.
Either take actions against both or dont. See the double standards?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
No one has the right to NOT be offended or insulted; including women in response to this Mufti, or Muslims in response to cartoons. That's really what this is about. The problem with the notion that you shouldn't offend is that it assumes that I, or anyone, can predict the sensibilites of another; that I can somehow know beforehand what you will be insulted by. This is impossible because everyone has a different threshold of sensibilities.

So you are saying that the pope and the danish cartoonist didnt know they would offend millions of muslims worldwide with their comments or cartoons.

Thanx for proving my point. So you automatically are saying that the mufti did not know he was insulting women.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
If I make the statement here: "Thats about as dumb as a red-headed step child" and you happened to be a red-headed step child, you'd likely be insulted by my statement. But does that mean you should kill me or damage my property? How am I supposed to know that you're a red-headed step child? What if I knew you were a red-headed step child? Who cares? In any case, you have the option to "ignore" me or not read my posts. The important difference is that it's not a crime for me to say this but it is a crime for you to damage my property or kill me. Many Muslims, it seems, don't realize this.

You are contradicting yourself. Are you saying that the mufti was justified in saying that? You seem to be advocating free speech without consequences. Yet, earlier you were condemning the mufti for his words?

So free speech or not? which do u choose?

If you say yes to free speech then leave the mufti alone. Since he didnt 'know' women would be insulted just like the pope didnt 'know' muslims wont be offended.

If you say no to free speech then arrest both mufti and pope.

Originally posted by laiguana
Muslims elected that man to be in such a position and to 'voice' their concerns and beliefs in the Islamic faith. To say that muslims are now a victim of this man would be complete non-sense. Infact to me it only sheds light on the 'true meaning of Islam."


[edit on 29-10-2006 by laiguana]

hahaha thats funny. Muslims elected that man. Thats gotta be the worst generalization ever. Even if you were only referring to australian muslims, you would know that he is not some kind of president of Islam to be presenting the 'true meaning of Islam'. What a joke. People like you make me laugh and make me angry at the same time. Its wierd

Originally posted by half_minded
I think we should express our anger towards this man for his words if he indeed did incite rape against white women. However, his words do not incite anyone to rape women as I explained earlier.

How do you know? Text messdages were enough to 'get more in the action' with the gang rapes.

He was telling that women in hijab are less prone to rape than 'uncovered meat'.

No.. he was saying that 'uncovered meat' was more likely to be eaten [raped] my cats.

He used some bad examples to show the comparison which were taken literally as his words.

Weren't they? Are you perpared to back that up? He hasn't denied saying it.

Again, I urge everyone to read the original arabic speech and post it here. Maybe then we could get some arabic speaking person to translate it for us.

I've seen various translations and it has the same meaning. It translates to cats/meat. There are plenty of australian muslims that don't disagree with the translation.. including my friends. They haven't mentioned it being mistranslated and, as it's their 1st language I'm pretty sure they'd be reading the original speach through their own news sources.

In any case, the translation never implied that he incited muslim men to go and rape women.

No.. he put blame sqarely on victims.. which gives a moral out for would be rapists.

When he said women, it meant all women, not just 'white women'. How did people come to assume that the mufti incited muslim men to go and rape uncovered white women.

Probably because the rape victims he was reffering to are white.

And he never even said that its the muslim men who rape uncovered women and spare the hijab covered women. He included all men in that.

Yes he did.. but then again all men aren't devout followers accepting everything he says as a moral guidline thats not to say muslims do either, it's impressionable testosterone driven angry teenagers that worry me. If the rapes were to start up again.. so will the race riots as other impressionable testosterone driven angry teenagers will want revenge like they did last time.

And we all know there have been numerous cases of this in the past, where the rapist tries to reverse the blame on the women. And guess what, the men were not just muslims.

I'm pretty sure the gang rapists he made reference to are. Why are people ignoring the fact that he was making references to the gang rapists? He had an agenda.

So unless the mufti himself has raped a woman and then tried to justify it, no one should be claiming that he should be jailed,

Again.. we have hate speech laws..

hanged, deported, etc.......We can just disagree with his views and move on.

I personally prefer him to be deported.. mainly because he was going to be because of something in his history but I think he should either stand down or be dismissed.

Isnt that the same advice given to all muslims when someone insults Islam.

No.

Originally posted by riley
As a woman that is enough to be bloody angry over..

As a muslim, P and D words and cartoons were also enough to be bloody angry over....

Fair enough.. I'm sure the Jews got offended by cartoons about them too.. and I'd like them not to be created in the first place. It's a shame not everyone wants to act like grown-ups.. being civil to one another should be valued.
Please remember I am in Australia and have to confess that I don't know what P and D words are. U2U if you like.

Now you did exactly the same thing you accuse other of. When did anyone try to prove the mufti's views or opinions.

He ranted on about a rapists being sentenced for 65 years.
A muslim rapist got 65 years. It's not a hard connection to make.

Some people are trying to get a better understanding of his words and why he would say it and what maybe he was trying to say.

I don't see what wrong with thinking what he said was what he meant. Why should people have to re-interprit it into a not so obvious context to make him look better?

This does not mean that someone is trying to prove his points. I already explained my version of his words. The same sentences can be interpreted in different ways. And his whole speech was in arabic.

Why then do people who's first language is arabic agree that it's offensive?

There you go, off topic. Scaring women into converting???......lol......OOOOOOO run from the scary muslim man with his penis hanging out. He will either rape you or convert u......OOOOOOOOOO!!!

Yeah. Thats real nice. The man called rape victims UNCOVERED MEAT.. and sorry dear but there was a group of apx 14 musilm rapists [I think only six were found- I don;t want to get into how they 'know there were fourteen..] who would roam the streets, kidnap white women, bash them and pack rape them all the while calling them 'aussie pigs' and this cleric you are defending is defending the rapists. One of then got 65 years and thats what he found attrocious. Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that he's using specific rapes as examples in his sermon. I would like to know where these young men learnt such behaviour and hatred and would like to know why they still show no remourse and why they still claim to be true to Allah. Doesn't the Koran say that you're only alloud to hit/kill in defence and only the enemy.. not inncoent people and animals? They call themselves muslim but it's vastly different to what I'm familar with.. yet they all refer to the same doctrine. Something doesn't make sense. Like the habbibs.. I'm fine with women wearing them yet there's one group of people that wears them as a declaration of belief.. another who wears them to 'cover modesty' [the koran doesn't metion habbibs so they aren't 'compulsary' as far as I know] and another where the husbands decide how much to show. Would someone 'in the know' like to clarify this for me please? I know there is twon main groups of musilm but there seem to be sub groups as well.

Jihad and blowing people up? Its funny how you use that as synonymous. Shows again that you dont have the knowledge of Islam as you claim to.

I have knowledge of it.. terrorists call themselves muslims as do law obiding ones. They obviously base their beliefs on something and they take it to extremes.. like christians who blow up abortion clinics; they still fall under the 'christian' banner.

Pope did say something similar.

Several months ago now.. I remember him blaming feminism for all the woes in the world. That pissed me off too.

As I already explained. Mufti 'insulted' women. Pope 'insulted' muslims.

And I'd like both of them to resign.. thing is while the pope is in office he doesn't have to answer to child- rape cover up charges.

Reagrdless of issues and views, you have to agree that millions were insulted in both cases. So who decides one is justified and the other is not?

The followers. The catholic church is losing members every day. If someone doesn't agree with the actions of a leader.. they should stop following him and he will be replaced. Doesn't matter what religion people are IMO.. the ones that should stand together are the ones that want peace.

People seem to have come to light with the 'true meaning of Islam' and 'muslim mentality' from the worldwide propoganda news. Thats real funny.

I guess all the doctors became doctors watching movies and news on surgeries and medicines, etc.

I guess all engineers became engineers by watching movies of building and bridges, etc.

I guess all the Islam experts became experts since the media has started highliting handpicked muslims all over the world.

lol

I should be a gynacologist by profession in that case. hahahahahah.

Originally posted by riley
How do you know? Text messdages were enough to 'get more in the action' with the gang rapes.

How do you know that they do?

Originally posted by riley
No.. he was saying that 'uncovered meat' was more likely to be eaten [raped] my cats.

So when I say that: "There are more muslims in middle east than christians" and "There are less christians in middle-east than muslims". According to you, they mean the opposite. I can see what a clear understanding you have of words. lol.

Originally posted by riley
Weren't they? Are you perpared to back that up? He hasn't denied saying it.

Ya he didnt deny saying what he said. I was talking about the interpretation given to his words not his actual words. whats your point?

Originally posted by riley
I've seen various translations and it has the same meaning. It translates to cats/meat. There are plenty of australian muslims that don't disagree with the translation.. including my friends. They haven't mentioned it being mistranslated and, as it's their 1st language I'm pretty sure they'd be reading the original speach through their own news sources.

And everyone is supposed to belive everything u just said without any proof to back it up. After the fact that you dont even know what the word 'habib' means you claim to have arabic speaking friends. If you had any, you would know that in arabic 'habib' can be used for guy or girl by the both sexes. Infact, arabic guys call each other habibi all the time. Its a very common word.

Besides, my point was different. I didnt say that mufti did not say cats or meats.

Mufti probably was trying to say that women who wear revealing clothes and go out in public and sway their asses are more prone to rape than a woman in hijab. Which according to maybe where he grew up might have been true.....who knows. Its just an opinion. Ofcourse lot of women may feel offended by it. But I dont see the connection to all this to Islam and how the Quran advocates it. some have even gone far to say that all muslim men feel like that.

Mufti never admitted to saying that he was indirectly or directly inciting muslim men to go out and rape white women.

Originally posted by riley
No.. he put blame sqarely on victims.. which gives a moral out for would be rapists.

Rapists have no morals. No one would listen to the rapist if he claimed that.

I can say similarly that pope's speech gave a way out to the all the would be rioters out there. Doesnt make sense, does it?

[

Originally posted by riley
Probably because the rape victims he was reffering to are white.

Mufti referring to white is irrelevant because this applies to any women without hijab. He probably meant white women are in the majority who dont wear hijab. Again, the orginal speech in arabic would help.

Originally posted by riley
Yes he did.. but then again all men aren't devout followers accepting everything he says as a moral guidline thats not to say muslims do either, it's impressionable testosterone driven angry teenagers that worry me. If the rapes were to start up again.. so will the race riots as other impressionable testosterone driven angry teenagers will want revenge like they did last time.

If i said that Mr X is a menace to society and someone should kill him. And next day Mr Y goes and kills Mr. X. Police will arrest Mr. Y. And even if he tells the police that my words made him do it. They won't touch me.

I can see every rapist claiming to have been following mufti's words.

Regardless of what the mufti said, a rapist will commit the rape. Mufti's words will not deflect the crime. The only difference can be that once the rapist is caught he can blame his crime on the mufti's words. That does not mean he would have not commited the rape in the first place.

Originally posted by riley
I'm pretty sure the gang rapists he made reference to are. Why are people ignoring the fact that he was making references to the gang rapists? He had an agenda.

So, now you think he was supporting the rapists? According to the reports, he was claiming that the punishment of 65 years in jail for rape is too much since blah blah blah. I do not agree with him. But that does not mean he supports rape of white women. He is an islamic preacher. And just like any other preacher, he is trying to give out a solution. Solution of wearing a hijab. He is trying to show that wearing hijab by western women could reduce rapes of women.

Same article can be viewed in different ways. As far as I know, mufti did not say that muslim men should rape white uncovered women. Neither did he say that rape should occur. He was instead describing how to reduce rape. Its just a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by riley
Again.. we have hate speech laws..

I dont see how the mufti made a hate speech, unless he actually asked muslim men to rape white women. which he did not.

Originally posted by riley
I personally prefer him to be deported.. mainly because he was going to be because of something in his history but I think he should either stand down or be dismissed.

Two things.

1. Double. Get the pope deported or removed from his position.

2. Where do you deport an australian citizen from australia to?

Originally posted by riley
Fair enough.. I'm sure the Jews got offended by cartoons about them too.. and I'd like them not to be created in the first place. It's a shame not everyone wants to act like grown-ups.. being civil to one another should be valued.
Please remember I am in Australia and have to confess that I don't know what P and D words are. U2U if you like.

Thats what I have been trying to say but sadly these days the trend is to bash muslims. When you know that you are clearly offending someone and causing such an outrage worlwide at a time like this then why would you do such a thing in the first place unless you are mentally challenged or you have some other agenda.

Originally posted by riley
He ranted on about a rapists being sentenced for 65 years.
A muslim rapist got 65 years. It's not a hard connection to make.

Still you havent shown who tried to prove the mufti's points.

Originally posted by riley
I don't see what wrong with thinking what he said was what he meant. Why should people have to re-interprit it into a not so obvious context to make him look better?

Nothing wrong in it. But I showed that same thing can be viewed in a different way so how can anyone be sure of what he meant to say. How can people claim that he was inciting muslims to rape white women?

Originally posted by riley
Why then do people who's first language is arabic agree that it's offensive?

Lets see. Muslims have been getting accused of lot of things in general in the last few years. And this anti-islam attitude does not seem to be reducing.

Now we have some people who can either try to justify and give reasoning for the mufti, but they know that on one will isten to them anyway. Then we have people who openly agree that mufti was being offensive. You see there is no choice left. No one listens to reasoning anymore. People are quick to point fingers and place blames. If these muslims had not condemned the mufti openly then everyone would have assumed that these people agree with the mufti and they all have the same mentality.

Since they openly condemned the mufti, its like automatically accepting the blame. You see the lack of choice?

Originally posted by riley
Yeah. Thats real nice. The man called rape victims UNCOVERED MEAT..

He said the cats eat uncovered meat just like men rape uncovered women. Out of all the rape cases, how many women wore hijab and how many didnt? This is what the mufti was implying. That women in hijab would be less prone to rape.

As I said, he used a bad example of cat and meat to prove his point.

Originally posted by riley
and sorry dear but there was a group of apx 14 musilm rapists [I think only six were found- I don;t want to get into how they 'know there were fourteen..] who would roam the streets, kidnap white women, bash them and pack rape them all the while calling them 'aussie pigs' and this cleric you are defending is defending the rapists. One of then got 65 years and thats what he found attrocious.

Even I find that atrocious. Just like I found the danish cartoons atrocious and insulting. I usually dont care about religious humour because afterall its humour. But in that case, the cartoons were not funny and they were meant to cause an outrage among muslims. It was the cartoonist's intentions that enraged me and what i found atrocious, not the cartoon's themsleves. I was indifferent to the cartoons and didnt care abt them. This is what the rage in the muslim world was mostly about. The cartoons were representing the cartoonists intentions.

In this case, the rage should be about the mufti's intentions. Maybe he wants the muslim men out of jail? or their sentence reduced? maybe not.
That does not mean, muslim men are rapists. That does not mean Islam or the Quran advocates rape. This does not mean that everyone at mufti's sermon actually agrees with everything and follows everything he says.

Originally posted by riley
Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that he's using specific rapes as examples in his sermon. I would like to know where these young men learnt such behaviour and hatred and would like to know why they still show no remourse and why they still claim to be true to Allah. Doesn't the Koran say that you're only alloud to hit/kill in defence and only the enemy.. not inncoent people and animals? They call themselves muslim but it's vastly different to what I'm familar with.. yet they all refer to the same doctrine. Something doesn't make sense.

It makes sense. The muslim hate propoganda that has been started will obviously have effects. Seeing how the US (Israel also included in lebanon case) is attacking muslim countries based on lies (believed by muslims and others worldwide) and occupying them. And killing thousands of innocent civilians. The daily media portrayal of an 'evil' islam.

I dont blame some of the muslims for having a hatred towards the west. These whole lot of muslims are just like the whole lot of western people. Americans and others belive that Bush is justified in his wars and support him blindly. These majority of muslims are against US foreign policies and its occupation.

In Iraq, the people are fighting for their country. But they are labelled terrorists driven by Jihad.

Originally posted by riley
Like the habbibs.. I'm fine with women wearing them yet there's one group of people that wears them as a declaration of belief.. another who wears them to 'cover modesty' [the koran doesn't metion habbibs so they aren't 'compulsary' as far as I know] and another where the husbands decide how much to show. Would someone 'in the know' like to clarify this for me please? I know there is twon main groups of musilm but there seem to be sub groups as well.

Earlier you claimed to have an extensive knowledge of Islam. And without reading my posts you are again talking about 'habbibs'????

Seems to me you told a blatant lie about your knowledge of Islam or even arabic.

Originally posted by riley

Jihad and blowing people up? Its funny how you use that as synonymous. Shows again that you dont have the knowledge of Islam as you claim to.

I have knowledge of it..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH.

[edit on 29-10-2006 by half_minded]

Originally posted by half_minded

Originally posted by Long Lance
say what you want, but this guy should no longer enjoy the respect (and support) of his community and peers, otherwise i think we all know what it means.

How about u replace 'this guy' with 'pope' or 'danish cartoonist'. since its exactly the same thing. and then read ur sentence again

What makes you think i'd react differently if a Catholic Cleric said women (or minorities, or children as is usually the case with catholic priests, unfortunately ) are fair game because they don't follow an arbitrary and bigotted guideline? the catholics may be helping perverts, which is bad enough but when cought they don't try to talk their way out of it, putting the blame on the victims and implicitly condoning violence.

i don't see how a cartoon (noone ever got hurt by pictures) or the pope's Islam bashing can be in any way compared to somebody gloating over victims of (gang-)rape, but that's just me.


The closest christian example i know of is the 11y/o raped, impregnated girl from colombia (iirc) who was excommunicated by the Vatican over her abortion. people were outraged, and rightly so, but, they never said what happened was basically her own fault, which this Mufti obviously did.

PS: what's next? will women be considered fair game for talking to strangers or driving a car, too?

Originally posted by Long Lance
i don't see how a cartoon (noone ever got hurt by pictures) or the pope's Islam bashing can be in any way compared to somebody gloating over victims of (gang-)rape, but that's just me.

Exactly, you dont see the comparison. But lot of open minded people will see it and realize what I was trying to imply.

Originally posted by half_minded
People seem to have come to light with the 'true meaning of Islam' and 'muslim mentality' from the worldwide propoganda news. Thats real funny.

So are you saying that muslim terrorists are made up by the news? :shk:
Maybe you should consider the possibilty that there are indeed muslims who are violent 'in allahs name' and that it's not just in the collective imagination of non muslims [though I believe they are in the minority they do exist]. There are decent people who claim to have the 'true meaning of islam' and there are extreamists who say exactly the same thing. Instead of dispelling myths however.. you lay blame for the negative perceptions of islam squarely at the feet on the people extreamists wish to conquer or kill. How about trying to influence culture to get rid of people with biggoted views? If you were to send an email to this guy would you tell him you disaprove of his remarks, hopefully causing him to re-evaluate his views.. or would you support him because he's a 'persecuted muslim' and tell him you think he's in the right thus enforcing his views? I feel sorry for the muslims trying to protect peaceful beliefs [demanding he step down.. good for them ] as apparently there are people, such as yourself who would rather pretend the existence of violent extreamists doesn't matter or should seen as fictional..

"No! You are just misinterpriting his words because you're racist. In fact he meant rape victims deserved being raped in the nice, respectful way.."

..and is comparable to you being a gynacologist?! How very apt that you should denograte the discussion by introducing a sexist and crude joke about your delusions of looking into womens' vaginas. There's certainly more than one pig in the pen.

Rilely, Well well well, you finally show your true colours, the raped women of Iraq/Afganistan dont count, you are a women arent you, so how do you bring yourself to say that. With regard to mentioning Iran maybe you should spend some time on current affairs. Also if you have not noticed there is universal wholesale Muslim bashing taking place on a daily basis in the Western World. So when you say why do I bring these into the topic its because of people like you and your attitude thats why. The fact that you mention this person is Muslim and is brainwashing Muslim men to rape white women is bordering on the hysterical and is a total lie.

We as human beings are bombarded every day with the views and thoughts of others, the media, politics, etc. We use our brians to sift through the daily tripe to decide what is right and wrong, well some of us do. Its interesting that your concerned of the effect this peson may have on others but does the same apply to you, have you been so easily brainwashed by Bush and his lies into believing that people of the Muslim faith are a threat to you and your way of life.

I have been fortunate in my job to meet just about every race on this planet, from all walks of life from the poor to millionaires and its been an education, its the best part of my job, it gives me an insight to the lives and views of others. The most important thing it has tought me is to be tollerant and understanding of those from different races and religions, I've been doing that for the last 25 years. You should try it , you never know you might enjoy it.

Originally posted by riley
So are you saying that muslim terrorists are made up by the news? :shk:
Maybe you should consider the possibilty that there are indeed muslims who are violent 'in allahs name' and that it's not just in the collective imagination of non muslims [though I believe they are in the minority they do exist].

Maybe you should consider that these so called terrorists were created by the west themselves. And by todays standards, terrorist is a very broad word being used. People are quick to label muslims as terrorists. What makes you think that extremists are terrorists?

Violent in 'Allah's name'. That is exactly the misconception. Anything a muslim does these days is automatically taken as allah's will or islamic teaching. Bravo for ignorance.

Originally posted by riley
There are decent people who claim to have the 'true meaning of islam' and there are extreamists who say exactly the same thing.

Yet you belive only the extremists. Even the media only shows the extremists as the real leaders of islam with true understanding of the faith.

Originally posted by riley
Instead of dispelling myths however.. you lay blame for the negative perceptions of islam squarely at the feet on the people extreamists wish to conquer or kill.

From what i see, the only conquering and killing being done these days is by the US. How many muslim coutries have attacked US or any other western country?

Originally posted by riley
How about trying to influence culture to get rid of people with biggoted views?

If only people listened. Too bad no one does.

Originally posted by riley
If you were to send an email to this guy would you tell him you disaprove of his remarks, hopefully causing him to re-evaluate his views.. or would you support him because he's a 'persecuted muslim' and tell him you think he's in the right thus enforcing his views?

If you actually read my posts properly then you would know the answer to that.

Originally posted by riley
I feel sorry for the muslims trying to protect peaceful beliefs [demanding he step down.. good for them

] as apparently there are people, such as yourself who would rather pretend the existence of violent extreamists doesn't matter or should seen as fictional..

APPLAUSE for that assumption. Next you will be claiming that I am a terrorist since according to you its better to gulp in watever the media feeds you without trying to even understand what is being said. Please read my posts before you make assumptions about me.

violent extremists is the term created by the media. No one even looks to see why a certain group of people turn violent. Iraqi insurgents are considered the same, but no one stop to see that maybe they are fighting for the freedom of their country. Maybe they were happier with Saddam ruling them rather than having the US army there. Maybe they are just average joe's who are pissed off because their families were killed and their homes destroyed by the US soldiers.

But if you government and media tells you that they are terrorists, then they must be. Right?

Originally posted by riley
"No! You are just misinterpriting his words because you're racist. In fact he meant rape victims deserved being raped in the nice, respectful way.."

"Infact he meant". you should not be saying that as you have clearly shown that you have little knowledge of Arabic and again and again u keep calling Hijab as Habbib. On top of that, you lied about having a lot of knowledge of Islam.
So how does your interpretation have more weightage over mine? How can you explicitly claim im a racist?

I offered a different explanation to show how easy it is to manipulate news. So its all about opinion.

Originally posted by riley
..and is comparable to you being a gynacologist?! How very apt that you should denograte the discussion by introducing a sexist and crude joke about your delusions of looking into womens' vaginas.

There's certainly more than one pig in the pen.

Did u read the above statements before i made the gyn. joke? you obviously chose to ignore it and take my joke out of context.

And how was it sexist or crude? did u even understand the joke? I dont think u did.

I meant that since I watch porn, i should have extensive knowledge of a vagina. Ofcourse that was joke and not meant to be taken literally that I watch a lot of porn.

It was mere comparison to prove my point. And you did not even understand it. Infact, you did not even reply to my actual point and tried to use that obvious joke against me to discredit me. lol. nice try but better luck next time.
there was nothing sexist about that joke. Being a gyn. or watching porn is not sexist.

IMO this cleric is a prime example of a religious extremisit at his best. He may not have incited any rapes(or maybe he has, only God knows), but he is guilty of passing along a message of hatred and violence and should be held accountable for his words. All religions have their extremists. It is high time that we, the people of all nations, start holding all of them accountable for their words and actions in the name of God. It sounds as if the people of Australia are quite angry and outraged by this caveman's statements( justifiably so!). Is he still alive? If so I am surprised! Maybe he should be stoned in the town square just like countless poor young Muslim women are when they commit a sexual trangression!!!!