Muslim leader: It's the woman's fault who is raped. She's "uncovered meat"

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Hello Angel, Resistancia said, quote; the Mufti should be charged with inciting rape, Riley said, quote; he is directly telling Muslim men to rape women.

Wow.
You edited my words! I find it difficult to believe that you accidently deleted the 'in' [and 'go around raping white]' from that quote. Please refrain from accusing me of saying things I haven't.. and do not try discredit me by altering the evidence.

Originally posted by Riley
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
To me he was indirectly telling muslim men to go around raping white women.

I found nothing in the Cleric's statement that said either.

Of course you didn't..

His words were archaic, ill chosen and ignorant but a long way off from telling Muslim men to commit rape.

Aside from the part where he uses it as a segway to defend the actions of pack rapists.. he's basically inferring that the victims were solely to blame so men have 'more leyway' to rape if they're so inclined. He justified rape.. when raping a woman is morally justified it suddenly goes from being a sociably unacceptable brutal violation to being understandable and just a quirk of male instinct. It stunns me that males here are attacking females and defending him when he is the one that has bascially called them animals.

One could argue that the way Western women dress has some merit from his religeous point of view in the Muslim world but a view that is totally at odds with the Western way of life.

If it is at odds with the society he lives in.. he should live in one thats does not conflict with his beliefs.

If one draws attention to a persons, colour, race etc. it can be construded as being racial in its intent. Example; a woman rang for an ambulance elicits nothing to the persons identity other than being female. If the statement was a black woman rang for an ambulance that implies a racial overtone.

Thats bs. I've been speaking of specific individuals.. why are you unable to make a distinction between yourself.. other muslims and an imam who sanctions rape? Seems you've got the race card at the ready. Despite having no grounds to call us racist.. I've noticed you've only used it against us self proffessed 'white women'.

Kind of ironic given the subject matter.

Of course we are talking about a Muslim cleric and a person that may have some influence on others but one cannot assume that he will influence others. There is a big difference between what a person says and the actions of others.

Yay! He finnally gets it!!

And to be perfectly honest although I am not an expert on these matters I would have thought that men who rape women would not need the encouragement of others to commit their crimes

No they don't.. I'm glad you realise that rape is not a crime based on sexual attraction.. but rather an act of violence and domination.

as they are all ready damaged goods if I may put it that way.

You should have quit while you're ahead. 'Damaged goods'? So you think the pack rape victims were damaged goods do you? because thats who he was talking about. Did you know a couple [if not all] were virgins?

No no.. that can't be right. They weren't wearing hajibs..

[edit on 1-11-2006 by riley]

an update
www.news.com.au...


There is a rally plannned at Lakemba Mosque on Saturday 4th November.

I sincerely hope that this is a peaceful event and that no more inflammatory statements are uttered. There will be a strong police presence.


In Pace Always
resi

Wellcome to the new Australian police state where there are those who say do as I say not as I do.The people police are flexing their muscles once again, freedom of speech is flushed down the pan by the voice of the righteous. You can speak but only if its what I want to hear, the place is going like America.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Wellcome to the new Australian police state where there are those who say do as I say not as I do.The people police are flexing their muscles once again, freedom of speech is flushed down the pan by the voice of the righteous. You can speak but only if its what I want to hear, the place is going like America.

Are you for real pal

It would be negligent and dangerous not to have a police presence at this rally.
People are allowed to protest and rally in Australia but there are some elements in our society (Aussies) who would seek to cause violence at this rally. The police presence is to protect the Muslims in Lakemba, not shut them up.

We do not want another epsiode like Cronulla

By the way, I will not be there with my man hatin' racist lynch mob girlfriends (sorry to disappoint you) because I sincerely feel that this rally is necessary.

You previously mentioned my impaired cranial capacity, well what's your excuse? You still have not remembered to show evidence whereby I singled you, magicmushroom, out as a (potential) rapist. That is because I never said that.

And I saw how you edited another members post to justify your view

That is really pathetic...Get real

[edit on 1-11-2006 by resistancia]

[edit on 1-11-2006 by resistancia]

Resi, on your 3rd post you said " we are all potential rape victims" such a statement used in this context implies that men all men have the potential to rape, this was part of zero tollerance campaign run in the UK a few years back and one that has been used in many countries. One of its statement was if your a, husband, father, son, brother, uncle, nethew your a potential rapist. In my place of work I took all the posters down becuase to me they were offensive and more to the point they would have no effect on the men who do commit rape. Some men commit the act of rape the majority dont, that is a statistical fact. Remember you want me to understand this issue from a women's perspective and I want you to understand it from a man's.

And you have disapointed me becuase I thought you would be at the rally as you have such a pationate view on this issue. (and I'm not being sarcastic)

You know what, the point is that there are two opposing parties in this issue, the ones that agree with the mufti and the ones that don't. The ones that are arguing with those retaliating against the mufti are the ones who agree, such as halfmind and magicmushroom.
I find it amusing that such individuals continue to accuse me and others of 'generalizing' when that's what they do themselves with the American public and western society. I don't even have to give examples since they are wherever you look. First of all let me make you all aware that generalizing is actually something normal that we do everyday. When you continue to see the same evidence presented to you over a particular matter, whatever it may be, you will begin to generalize your views on it. And that is why I can justify my views on the Islamic religion as being ruled mainly by extremists which I DO consider to be as equally dangerous as any terrorist. There's virtually no difference between the two since they both want to change everyone (by force if necessary) to fit their own narrow view of how things should be.
So this mufti should indeed be regarded as any member of the Taliban or Al Queda. Their hatred for western society is blatant and yet they choose to live in one. I wonder why that is?

magicmushroom

As I said in an earlier post this Mufti has a big influential mouth and the young Muslims that attend the Lakemba Mosque listen to him. The misogynistic, ill chosen words of the Mufti and the tendency for his brethren to listen and be instructed by him as their religious leader, does make women potential rape victims. If the Pope had said the same thing I would be outraged too (I did say similar when I mentioned many other religions in an earlier post but once again you choose to see only what suits) because men listen to the Pope too.

This man is preaching that women are responsible for violence perpetrated against them because all women are satanic beings sent to tempt men. Especially the women who show a little flesh. When archaic views like this are being sprouted by religious leaders, Presidents or PM's (anyone with the capacity to influence as a leader I SAID THIS BEFORE TOO) then YES I consider myself and other women on this planet, potential rape victims.

We had a race riot in Cronulla in retaliation of an physical assault on 2 local male lifesavers that came to the aid of a female lifesaver after she was verballed and called horrible names by a group of Muslim youths. Some Muslims who (I think innocently) went to the beach the next day were assaulted by some of the 100s of Aussies who had gathered and then it all got out of control. Carloads of Muslims came into the surrounding suburbs the next night (Cronulla was a no go zone) windows were smashed, cars destroyed and several women threatened with rape of themselves and their children. One young guy was stabbed leaving a club with two companions. I was disgusted by the actions of EVERYONE involved- race and religion being irrelevant.

Some of our Aussie youth are out of control. We had a case recently whereby a young intellectually impaired girl was sexually assulted, urinated on, her hair set alight. Yeah Aussie guys from various western religions guys did that. Aussie Muslim guys gang raped two girls a few years ago and were convicted.

The common denominator here is that they are MALES influenced by god only knows what or whom and they chose to commit an act of sexual violence that they knew was wrong.

When there are other factors that influence males to enact violence against women (and men) the last thing we need is for religious leaders to portray women as lesser beings under the influence of Satan and therefore to be treated like animals during sermons, speeches and in public places.

I did not single you out as a rapist. You seem fixated on this. I did not say "magicmushroom is a (potential) rapist". You interpreted my comments to justify calling me names and accuse me of being a racist, bigot and manhater because you do not agree with my opinion. I prefer to refrain from assuming things about people especially if I do not know them. You have also made accusations and assumptons about another member as well.

It is unfortunate that you had an issue with the rape posters in your workplace. I think the posters were put there to reinforce the message to women about the importance of reporting rape, even if it is a family member or someone they know. That would be harder to do than report a rape by someone you DO NOT know. So you took it upon yourself to remove the posters ? I think that is bizarre (Just reading betwen the lines here...that is ok isn't it?...yeah it must be...you do it all the time)

I do not seek your respect and do not presume that you can educate me

[edit on 1-11-2006 by resistancia]

How about everyone here realizing that this is the WRITTEN WORD?

Views and ideas can at times, be misunderstood greatly and even more so when the subject is something as serious as this one. Sometimes things people write here don't convey emotional intent properly.

Now, the staff here has had more complaints on this thread in 4 days then almost any thread in recent memory.

Please stop the personal challenges and simply discuss the topic. The alternative is that this thread will be closed for all by a few who want to force their ideas on others instead of listening to alternate points of view.

Originally posted by laiguana
When you continue to see the same evidence presented to you over a particular matter, whatever it may be, you will begin to generalize your views on it. And that is why I can justify my views on the Islamic religion as being ruled mainly by extremists which I DO consider to be as equally dangerous as any terrorist. There's virtually no difference between the two since they both want to change everyone (by force if necessary) to fit their own narrow view of how things should be.

Fine that you like making generalizations, but be aware of considering them thee absolute truth.

Justify however you like. In the end, it's your opinion, and I respect that. I disagree with it, but I respect it.

I'm learning to be consciously aware of my generalizations and snap judgements because they make me short-sighted -- I short the people by pinning them without further investigation, as well as not allowing them to change; and I short myself by not allowing my opinion to be changed, not allowing myself to be educated.

We cannot categorize people based on the actions of a few.

It is too easy. It is not right. Beyond that, and more importantly, it is illogical and immoral.


Likewise, to force anyone to change is, I think, outright terrorism... no matter what their message speaks of. But, somehow the legalist 'logic' is the only one that people seem to understand, or see as having any sort of result. Unfortunately, the result is short-term at best.

Originally posted by resistancia
The common denominator here is that they are MALES influenced by god only knows what or whom and they chose to commit an act of sexual violence that they knew was wrong.

I hate to question this.. and I honestly wish that this wouldn't even be a possibility to bring up..

Are we sure that these guys *knew* that their actions were wrong? I mean, outside of being told 'hey, don't do that!'...

I bring the point up because I just heard my neighbor yelling at her kid. I've no clue what the kid did, but all she kept yelling was 'no.. don't do that.. no.. no'. I cannot recall a single time of her giving him an explanation, an actual reason (outside of the threat of punishment) not to do this or that.

Point being -- if we are not explaining, giving logical reasons (and this is assuming that people have been taught to think critically), then we cannot be sure that they knew their actions were wrong.

Is it an excuse? No, not at all. Ignorance is not an excuse-able reason to do something.

It is an excuse-able reason to educate them.

so sad to wonder whether people are taught to actually think about their actions or not.. bums me right out...

[edit on 1-11-2006 by Diseria]

I have been trying to argue in a sensible manner but people seem to be having their own fight going on, on this thread.

So far, very few people replied to me in a sensible manner. Others are having their own verbal fight going on. And lot of those people are automatically pulling me in the fight by calling out my name again and again. But I wont fall for it. You guys can continue having ur discussion in the manner that u r having because it truly shows character.

I posted some very logical and strong points and no one had actually debated with me on those. Not that I want to debate forcefully, but I would appreciate it if you kept me out of your senseless fights. Please do not call me out, or group me up with magicmushroom and make assumptions about me. If you have something to say to me about the topic, then you can read my posts and try to argue my views. Drop the name-calling and accusations. And keep me out of your fights.

I realized where this thread would end up going just like any other thread muslim involved. Some people just cannot get enough of muslim-bashing or member bashing. I presented my views, where are yours?

Getting back to what the cleric said, I believe in free speech, anyone in a free society are at liberty to say what they like. But were now becoming a society where speech and thought control are being used to control same. The cleric said things that may be offensive to some but not all. He did not incite rape, he did not tell anyone to commit rape, and as far as we know his words will have no effect until proof, real proof says otherwise.

Would we rather this man say/preached what he likes behind closed doors in secret meetings or would we rather hear his views so we can challenge them, I would prefer the latter. There are those would would wish to stifle personal speech and thought but is that right, is that not the slippery slope. Who decides what can and cannot be said or thought and where do you draw the line. You can argue that if you make laws to control these kind of views it will stop them, well no it does not, laws are made to be broken, otherwise there would be no need to have them, there there to control people and their excess's.

Again there are those who assimilate freedom of speech with support of this mans words, well members of my family fought the Nazis so I and others could live in a society where one can speak out without fear of reprisal. There seems to be a view that some can say what they like but deny that right to others.

In the Western World at the moment there is wholesale Muslim bashing, not a day passes where their being accused of something. This hatred is being whipped up by the Media and backed by Goverments, Why, what is the reason behind all this. Here in the Uk we have race laws preventing racism yet Muslims are being targeted again why. Put yourself in their position, how would you feel if you were being attacked on a daily basis, well the norm is you fight back and that is what some Muslims are doing, they see a daily assult on their way of life, their religion etc. And in the ME Muslim men, women and children are being killed, tortured and raped.

One has to see these event from a Global point of view and not look at the individual events. Since 9/11 Bush and Blair have been pushing this agenda against the Muslim people. If any other group of people were targeted in this way what do you think would happen, well people fight back by using whatever means, I dont neccesarily agree with those actions but I agree people have a right to defend themselves. This cleric's words are not an isolated insident but part of the ongoing struggle between a clash of ideals and beliefs and is one in which the perpatrators have been engaged in for some time.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Resi, on your 3rd post you said " we are all potential rape victims" such a statement used in this context implies that men all men have the potential to rape,
..

a classic Non-Sequitur


if there was a serial killer on the loose ina city, everyone walking the streets would have a slight risk of being attacked and killed, that doesn't make everyone a killer.


get this through your head: a gang per town is enough to victimize hundreds of people over the years and everyone is at risk, period.

The Mufti will be taking extended leave and will not be "preaching" for a few months
while a decision is made about his future.
Thank god for that. A solution to the problem.
No riots, no property damage. Just by expressing outrage VOCALLY we get a result
in a peaceful way.

Originally posted by Diseria

Originally posted by resistancia
The common denominator here is that they are MALES influenced by god only knows what or whom and they chose to commit an act of sexual violence that they knew was wrong.

Are we sure that these guys *knew* that their actions were wrong? I mean, outside of being told 'hey, don't do that!'...

Point being -- if we are not explaining, giving logical reasons (and this is assuming that people have been taught to think critically), then we cannot be sure that they knew their actions were wrong

I am sure they are all old and smart enough to know that rape is a violent crime. To my knowledge, it has not been proved that any of these men is intellectually handicapped and did not understand. They are just thugs that snub their noses at the law and morals of society.


In Pace Always
resi

So the mufti is now the leader of a gang of rapists, fine, prove it, prove it in a court of law and I will believe you otherwise he is guilty of nothing other than being ignorant and stupid. Again those who critisice me are unwilling to discuss the bigger picture here. Do you really believe Australia will be a safer place because this man is not in the country. Do you think by him going removes his thoughts no it does not. You had a chance to challenge this person on his views and lost it. Now he will go somehere else and will spout those same views. This is not dealing with the problem but is a case of out of sight out of mind.

Failure to deal with these problems in a correct way only stores problems for the future and the future will prove me right.

Originally posted by resistancia

Originally posted by Diseria

Originally posted by resistancia
The common denominator here is that they are MALES influenced by god only knows what or whom and they chose to commit an act of sexual violence that they knew was wrong.

Are we sure that these guys *knew* that their actions were wrong? I mean, outside of being told 'hey, don't do that!'...

Point being -- if we are not explaining, giving logical reasons (and this is assuming that people have been taught to think critically), then we cannot be sure that they knew their actions were wrong

I am sure they are all old and smart enough to know that rape is a violent crime. To my knowledge, it has not been proved that any of these men is intellectually handicapped and did not understand. They are just thugs that snub their noses at the law and morals of society.

I hope that you are correct.

The only reason that I brought it up is because of a conversation that I had with my philosophy teacher.. We were talking about morals/ethics, and he said that it was common knowledge that to kill a person was wrong. My classmates automatically nodded, but I sat there perplexed. Sadly, the teacher thought I was joking when I brough it to his attention that no, I did not have a real true reason. The message 'thou shalt not murder' has been engrained in my head, but I have no real *reason* to back it up. I know the consequences (prison) and the reactions of family & friends... but no logical reason why. I understand why the sky is blue. I do not understand why one person should not kill another. Just people constantly telling me that it is wrong.

I do not mean this as me advocating for murder. I mean this as an example of the fact that reasons are not always explained when it comes to the do's and don'ts of social behavior. We're given consequences by authority figures, given fear of those punishments, rather than a solid reason that would keep us from every committing the act -- beyond the consequences.

I mean it as an example of a person who has all their faculties (*laughs* at least so far as I know.. if I lost some, I haven't realized it yet!), and yet could not truly explain with reasons, with virtuous logic, why one person should not kill another. I know that I could not physically do it, but that's neither here nor there in context of this particular issue.

Being told that something is wrong does not, cannot, hold up as a reason. And neither do the consequences of punishment if we act wrongly.

And the 'logic' of "because you just don't do it" is not adequate.

At best, maybe a 'risk verses reward' equation could work, but even that relies on the risk of punishment...

Humans are creatures of reason. Are we sure that people understand the reasons why this or that behavior is acceptable or not?

Originally posted by Flighty
The Mufti will be taking extended leave and will not be "preaching" for a few months
while a decision is made about his future.
Thank god for that. A solution to the problem.
No riots, no property damage. Just by expressing outrage VOCALLY we get a result
in a peaceful way.

I'm agreeing with MagicMushroom on this one..

Truly, it's a temporary solution.

And while the man's words were, to say the least, insensitive... I still do not view him as THEE problem.

THEE problem is his train of thought, which many people subscribe to in some form or fashion. THAT is the problem that needs to be corrected, educated... not a single advocate who's just going to move his message elsewhere. The 'logic' that created the message needs to be fixed.

Still, no one is willing to join me in reading the Qu'ran in order to glean any understanding of where this guy's coming from... THAT is how we shall fix the problem. Not by shuffling it off to a different country.

It's a temporary solution at best.

And this is not even considering the fact that anyone may remove the stone... the water will still ripple.

[edit on 2-11-2006 by Diseria]

magicmushroom,

You continue to twist everything I post. I am attempting to remain diplomatic and
express my opinion and occasionally post a link but you seem intent on being aggressive and argumentative towards me.

I am asking you to stop targetting me just because I do not agree with you.


Get over yourself

Disera,


Yeah I agree ...morals. People all have different moral standards and that opens up a whole other thread I think.

Huge topic


In Pace Always
resi

[edit on 2-11-2006 by resistancia]