Originally posted by Gazrok
Uhmm...that was more than half a century ago....

As for the "cobra", see Seekerof's comments....(and I have it on good authority that the modified F-22s being tested in GA can do things that the Su fighters wouldn't think possible in their wildest dreams...)

As for the guns comment, the whole idea is to make them debris before you even see the enemy... However, should it come to that, you'll find the US pilots of the most advanced fighters, compared to the soviets, will win out....not by much, but will win.

The biggest problem the Soviets face here, is their ability to maintainence and field such fighters (and a significant number) in a combat situation... As I mentioned, the majority of the air force is obselete....

So what if it's long ago? Are you saying they've gotten worse? Then it's safe to say U.S. pilots have gotten worse. Of course, they're U.S., so how can they ever get worse?

Again, I am not limiting this to the F/A-22. In fact, I am referring to our condition now, which is most relevant.

Also, what evidence are you using to say U.S. pilots will win in a gunfight? Or is it a feeling of loyalty towards our own air force? My evidence is in past wars. Take Korea for example. Like I said, Soviet pilots shot down a lot of our fighters, including the F-86 Sabre which, like today's F-15Cs, were superior to the MiG-15. The "fighters have changed" arguement is irrelevant, because the fact remains, the F-86 was a superior fighter to the MiG-15. While U.S. fighter training trains very well in usage of guns, Russian pilots are pushed on gunfighting more than any other nation. That makes them better.

I agree. Logistics is a problem. But again your "Air Force is obsolete" is irrelevant because advanced avionics and missiles have more limitations than capabilities. The radar in ACM is useless. Missiles must be used on a more restricted basis.

Do Russians even have a Air Force? The country is out of food, who cares about the Air Force?
Who is going to join the Air Force when they are all busy dying of starvation?

All philosophies and doctrines.....
And "no", I am implying that the F-22 will be the most advanced 5th Gen. Fighter in the world and will be so for 15-20 years to come.
The US has other aircraft that can handle virtually anything that the Russian's can currently field....and that includes maneuverability...
When many claim and say that the F-15, F-18, and F-16 are very highly maneuverable aircraft, what does that imply? That they are nothing when gauged against their Russian counter-parts? Bottom line....maneuverability, especially in this day and age of A2A missiles, is over-rated.....
Cobra maneuvers/Pugachev Cobra can sell aircraft and look damn cool at air-shows, but to talk what such a maneuver can do in A2A combat is subjective and theory...bascially, it looks swell on paper, but will end up being useless in combat 9 times out of 10. At the speeds needed to perform such maneuvers in the first place leaves the pilot in an almost no win situation other than to bail. All this said.....maneuverability will not overcome technology.

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
All philosophies and doctrines.....
And "no", I am implying that the F-22 will be the most advanced 5th Gen. Fighter in the world and will be so for 15-20 years to come.
The US has other aircraft that can handle virtually anything that the Russian's can currently field....and that includes maneuverability...
When many claim and say that the F-15, F-18, and F-16 are very highly maneuverable aircraft, what does that imply? That they are nothing when gauged against their Russian counter-parts? Bottom line....maneuverability, especially in this day and age of A2A missiles, is over-rated.....
Cobra maneuvers/Pugachev Cobra can sell aircraft and look damn cool at air-shows, but to talk what such a maneuver can do in A2A combat is subjective and theory...bascially, it looks swell on paper, but will end up being useless in combat 9 times out of 10. At the speeds needed to perform such maneuvers in the first place leaves the pilot in an almost no win situation other than to bail. All this said.....maneuverability will not overcome technology.

regards
seekerof

Seekerof, it doesn't take a genius to realize spending time using radar and getting a missile lock gets you killed in ACM.

And no, the F-15 F-14 and all else are not manueverable. At least not as much as Russian fighters.

And technology you refer to if effective only in BVR. A veteran U.S. combat pilot named Jeffery Ethell who has also flown Russian fighters even said himself, technology doesn't win wars. Training, tactics, and numbers do. There are a few oddballs, but otherwise this is a constant. If technology is what wins wars, then Germany would've won World War II. They were far better than us in terms of quality of forces and training. We won only because our morale as better. And I guess our numbers too.

Enough on superiority. Back to the original subject.

[Edited on 11-11-2003 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Q: Is the Russian Air Force still in the game?

A: Yes!



Now..

do i have make my point or would you be kind enough to just belive me?



Btw,

There are plenty of topics about similar subjects..

Or topics that have turned into this conversation by some mysterious way..



Recomended reading:

AirForces Monthly

Actually, FULCRUM, several sources by credited people all agree that if the Soviet Union doesn't exist, the U.S. DoD would have to create it.

In other words, the Russian Air Force is not only no longer a threat, it never existed. The moment the Soviet Air Force ceased to exist, it's massive amounts of aircraft fell victim to a non-existent economy, which in turn led to a military with nothing. The cutbacks were absolutely astronomical. The entire nation, for that matter, is nothing.

When a government/nation falls, there is also a bit of anarchy involved. That is why morale and discipline is so low. Everything is so disorganized to the point each military unit is like it's own country. There is insubordination, defection, just pure chaos within the ranks. I heard some pilots don't even train anymore. But why would they? They're not even paid, nor are they housed or fed. The most basic of things needed for a world-class military aren't there. Then they can't even arm, fuel, or maintain their fighters. Russian fighters were designed with simplicity, but there is a limit as to how far you can go. Fuel isn't there, and if there is, it's ridiculously expensive. Spare parts and support personnel are difficult to procure. For a country unable to store fresh produce in market, it's a dream to even procure their excellent advanced fighters and run an air force around them.

Russia itself is so bad, I shouldn't even explain. Highways are accidents waiting to happen. Buildings are poorly maintained (if ever maintained), and everything is of the lowest quality imaginable.

The only salvation I see is if somehow the C.I.S. can find a way to get back on it's feet. Even then, I think it would've changed too much to ever build a superior air force. Russia has changed too much and it will never return to it's old, glorious ways.

As a final note, this is how bad things are for the Russian Air Force. The personnel don't even have desks!

There is an old saying that goes something like this:

'An army travels on its stomach.'

In a sense it holds true for any branch of armed forces today.

The Russians are in a weak position to support any major undertaking IMHO.

Not suggesting that they cannot be and are not a threat but they can't be in there for the long haul from what I can see.

Russians are still in the game with weopons. They will always be in the game even if half of their people are starving to death. Russian are just people who are into weapons. For example I am Russian and I look all over the place just to find inforamtion about air planes, arms, etc. Russia also has some of the smartest people in their country about weapons. For example Kolashnikov.

if for next 10-20 year they have Putin or somebody like minded in control they will fully rise and gain their place once again as the supreme nation..

Fulcrum, good point you brought up.

As some people know(which are intersted about Russian politics and prospery)Putin just caught 100 officers that were corrupte in the Chechna war.(they held money to themselfs instead of spending it to train soldiers) Putin also just put more money into the military.

Will we start to see the russians selling these aircraft on the black market.

mcoy sorry but you got no point here. It is really hard to get away with selling a new plane. Maybe an old mig but not a new plane that is in limited quantities.

Never Underestamate our Russian Friends

They can improvise with the best of us

when pushed......

And they are Well Armed !

LOL straterx that is true if you mess with Russian people they will fight for their country and they dont give up. Look at WW2 or the Napleon war.(most Russian are really patroatic)(I am also very patrotic about Russia even though I live in USA)(it doesnt mean I hate USA but it does mean if their is war between USA and Russia I will join the Russian side) And Russia is still well armed. It might not have as large an army as during commmisum but they do still upgrade their weopons.

And the US doesn't have highly manueverable aircraft as the Russian's do?

One must understand that both nations have very different philosophies concerning aircraft usage and such....

Good point Seekerof US does have manueverable planes.
Also Russian and USA do have very different philosophies. For example right now Russian is try to make volenter army so they can have smaller army but better trained. During the Iraq war Russians saw that it is better to have better trained soldier then more less trained soldiers. Also Russia doesnt go for more tech advanced aircrafts(in computers), they go for the more manueverable. Most of the time Russia depends on power and USA on technology. Me myself as a Russian also would like more power cause technology could sometimes fail.






[Edited on 11-11-2003 by Russian]

Nro1:

R-73 and R-77 AA missiles..



These are superior to the best western designs which are AIM-120 and PYTHON 4/5..



Nro2:

Like already mentioned all the basic Russian fighter are super agile.. and these are being modified with up to date system as we speak..

These systems being somewhere in the middle of F-15E and F-22..



Nro3:

Guards units..

Even thought some of the Russian units dont have all the training and the money they want/need..

The Guard units.. the backbone of the FA have all the training and money they need..

Guards units being the elite units of the Russian airforce.. like the Spetznaz is for the army..

And as we know the Russian Special units are better equipet and especially trained than any other units in whole world..



And the whole Russian armed forces are being converted to a professional force of +1 million people..

And are to have only the best and latest weapons available..



And this goes for all.. Army, Navy, AirForce and ICBM forces..



No more ill-equiped and trained conscripts..



And i truly belive that this will make a big difference.. as core of Russian Officers and instructors have always been 'in top of the food chain'..

They are getting rid of the weak links and making their forces all professional..

Like the UK has..

And belive when they are done US Armed forces will look like childrens play yard after that.. when compared to Russians..
(Russian military is not going to have 'recruits' as US has..)

In 1992 RUSSIAN forces numbered some 2,5-2,7 million personel..

That was all Russian..

As USSR was already long gone..

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by ghost
Yes! It is a fact that they don't apply themselves the way they did in the cold war and their forces aren't quite as daunting. You need to also rememberr the US isn't the same military power it was back then either. Bottom Line: The Russians are still a force to be recekned with.

Tim

Good point about our military. It is nowhere near what we had back then. As disappointing as it is, I think the U.S. has done a great job reconstructing a military to be appropriate for the the New World Order.

Anyway, why do you think the Russian Air Force can still hack it? I'd just like to know what exactly they have. Forgive, me, but they've never really put out much information on the inner-workings of the Soviet or the Russian Air Force.

If you look at the stats on some of their weapons, you will quickly see that they still pose a very credibal threat. For example look at the SU-37 (an upgraded model of the SU-27). An Air Force report published on A volume of Avation Week and Space Technology states that: it posses some areas of sureriority when conpared to the F-15C. Consider that the SU-37 is an improvment so it improves on the SU-27's capibilities. At one point the USAF considered building an F-15 upgrade informally known as the F-15xx to provide an interm fighter untill the F-22 was ready. The fact that the Air Force looked at an interm air superiority fight suggest that the Su-37 constutes a creadibal theat in the eyes of US Intelligence

Second the Russian Air Force still has nuclear weapons and the capibilty to deliver those weapons against military targets. Remember: the Nuclear threat was on of the counerstones of the cold war. As I've said before their forces aren't what they once were, But remember that we cut back on our nuclear forces quite a bit since the end of the cold war, so their's still a delicate balance there.

Very cool pics SectorGaza

After reading everything in this post not one person bothered to mention Canada.

Oh yeah, laugh it up. But the fact is Canada has very highly trained troops, top notch as a matter of fact.

You can lookup the top gun comps and you'll notice Canada does VERY well.

cheers.

-l

i have it on my harddrive, try searching in k-lite or google.