Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has gone from being the most powerful military force in the world to being marginally effective. Which means not so great. The Soviet Union overall just isn't that power it used to be, which is the main reason why they're in shambles. So let me ask you this. Is the Russian Air Force worthy? I mean, the pilots are the best-trained and they have superior aircraft, but they are decreasing in number as time goes by.

Just now they are beginning to produce highly advanced fighters. Imagine if the Soviet Union was still around and they had the Su-27, Su-35, and every advanced Russian fighter in development. That would be bad for the U.S. and the world. Very BAD.

But the country splitting at the seams, the prospect of having an air force with superb fighters looks like a long shot.

I guess one would have to wait and see...
What the intentions of the world will be!!!
helen.......

Despite their obsolete hardware and force reduction, Russia is still very much a world player although they don't commit themselves to peacekeeping missions and such. It could still thrash any single NATO country or combination of countries other than the US. And it still has nuclear weapons. Where it goes from here depends on how well its economy does...

Will we start to see the russians selling these aircraft on the black market.

I would have expected ATS Scholar, FULCRUM to be all over this thread... maybe he's asleep... LOL

Q: Is the Russian Air Force still in the game?

A: Yes!



Now..

do i have make my point or would you be kind enough to just belive me?



Btw,

There are plenty of topics about similar subjects..

Or topics that have turned into this conversation by some mysterious way..



Recomended reading:

AirForces Monthly

if for next 10-20 year they have Putin or somebody like minded in control they will fully rise and gain their place once again as the supreme nation..

like in 1943-198x..

Yes! It is a fact that they don't apply themselves the way they did in the cold war and their forces aren't quite as daunting. You need to also rememberr the US isn't the same military power it was back then either. Bottom Line: The Russians are still a force to be recekned with.

Tim

I mean, the pilots are the best-trained and they have superior aircraft, but they are decreasing in number as time goes by.

Though they are highly trained, I wouldn't say "best". I'd go with the US or Isreal on that one...

On superior aircraft, again, no...unless you take the US out of consideration. However, the backbone of their forces are using older, obsolete planes...

I will agree with Fulcrum however.... that Russia is definitely poised to make a MAJOR comeback in the next decade....and yes, they could pretty much wipe the floor with any other NATO nation (again, US not considered)....

U.S. being the best trained? Hnpf! I know some RAF types who would have words with you about that! Israel, yes, but there are some small countries with extremely gutsy air forces, like Pakistan (as FULCRUM is a proud fan, he will tell you!)

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Q: Is the Russian Air Force still in the game?

A: Yes!



Now..

do i have make my point or would you be kind enough to just belive me?



Btw,

There are plenty of topics about similar subjects..

Or topics that have turned into this conversation by some mysterious way..



Recomended reading:

AirForces Monthly

I'd like to see your reasoning on why the Russian Air Force can still hack it. Take into consideration everything and give me a report on it. Thanks!

Originally posted by ghost
Yes! It is a fact that they don't apply themselves the way they did in the cold war and their forces aren't quite as daunting. You need to also rememberr the US isn't the same military power it was back then either. Bottom Line: The Russians are still a force to be recekned with.

Tim

Good point about our military. It is nowhere near what we had back then. As disappointing as it is, I think the U.S. has done a great job reconstructing a military to be appropriate for the the New World Order.

Anyway, why do you think the Russian Air Force can still hack it? I'd just like to know what exactly they have. Forgive, me, but they've never really put out much information on the inner-workings of the Soviet or the Russian Air Force.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Though they are highly trained, I wouldn't say "best". I'd go with the US or Isreal on that one...

On superior aircraft, again, no...unless you take the US out of consideration. However, the backbone of their forces are using older, obsolete planes...

Actually, Soviet pilots actually performed the best out of all the Allied nations during World War II. Declassified military reports from Moscow reveal that in the Korean War, Soviet pilots shot down 650 Allied fighters while the Red Air Force lost only 335 MiG-15s. North Korean and Chinese pilots trained by the Red Air Force shot down another 231 Allied aircraft. In fact, a single MiG-15 ace named Captain Nikolai Sutyagin shot down 21 allied fighters alone. He and 21 other Soviet pilots during the war were awarded the Gold Star Medal of the Hero of the Soviet Union for this. What they did was no fluke. They kicked some serious ass. And American pilots are well-trained.

You say U.S. fighters are superior, but again, you are referring to the technology. Technology is far too overrated. Like I said in that other thread, it takes more time and preparation to fire a missile than a gun. A gun also cannot be fooled by flares, chaff, or EW. Soviet aircraft may not be as fast, but they can dominate in ACM better than any other fighter due to their agility. U.S. fighters, on the other hand, are not suited for tight-turning ACM because of their weight and speed.

Look at it this way. The Su-27 "Flanker" can perform the "Pugachev Cobra." It's not only a airshow spectacular, it's a combat tactic as well. If it is being pursued by a fighter, it can perform a Cobra and get a snap shot with it's guns or even a missile.

Find any American fighter with that capability or that kind of agility and drinks are on me.

I'll give you on one thing though, when it comes to Beyond Visual Range combat, U.S. fighters are invincible.

Bottom line: Technology is overrated. Aerodynamics are underrated.

[Edited on 11-11-2003 by sweatmonicaIdo]

You said:
"Find any American fighter with that capability or that kind of agility and drinks are on me."

Dude....you better hit some past threads here before making statements like that.....
F-22 for starters has unlimited AoA...........

The "Pugachev Cobra" maneover is well known and can ONLY be done effectively by mere 10's of pilots, not a whole Air Force (ie: Russian Air Force)! There are videos around here showing American and other foreign aircraft performing near to this maneuver.
This is not a paramount maneover and used in air-combat, is a lsat ditch maneover, not an all inclusive maneover. Use that maneover on a number of aircraft and "joe pilot" will be bailing out of his aircraft....

BTW: "Bottom line: Technology is overrated. Aerodynamics are underrated".........
Perhaps try that maybe aerodynamics are over-rated and technology is under-rated.
Its all a matter of perspective and an Air Forces philosophy and doctrines...right?


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 11-11-2003 by Seekerof]

The F-22 is ONE type aircraft. ALL of Russia's fighters are highly agile.

Actually, technology is WAY overrated. It's obvious because the rest of you who say U.S. fighters are superior use their weapons, avionics, and speed as evidence.

It's simple as it gets. The plane that can turn quicker will end up in a good firing position than a fighter that is slower at turning. Agility leads to good positioning. High speed leads to overshooting and less agility wastes precious time.

Actually, Soviet pilots actually performed the best out of all the Allied nations during World War II.

Uhmm...that was more than half a century ago....

As for the "cobra", see Seekerof's comments....(and I have it on good authority that the modified F-22s being tested in GA can do things that the Su fighters wouldn't think possible in their wildest dreams...)

As for the guns comment, the whole idea is to make them debris before you even see the enemy... However, should it come to that, you'll find the US pilots of the most advanced fighters, compared to the soviets, will win out....not by much, but will win.

The biggest problem the Soviets face here, is their ability to maintainence and field such fighters (and a significant number) in a combat situation... As I mentioned, the majority of the air force is obselete....

[Edited on 11-11-2003 by Creepy]

Never Underestamate our Russian Friends
They can improvise with the best of us
when pushed......
And they are Well Armed !

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
The F-22 is ONE type aircraft. ALL of Russia's fighters are highly agile.

Actually, technology is WAY overrated. It's obvious because the rest of you who say U.S. fighters are superior use their weapons, avionics, and speed as evidence.

It's simple as it gets. The plane that can turn quicker will end up in a good firing position than a fighter that is slower at turning. Agility leads to good positioning. High speed leads to overshooting and less agility wastes precious time.

And the US doesn't have highly manueverable aircraft as the Russian's do?

One must understand that both nations have very different philosophies concerning aircraft usage and such....
It is a known fact that A2A combat is going the way of BVR...the "Raptor", as other aircraft, where designed specifically for this, as well as the ability to dogfight, if need be. Read a little on the dinosaur 'raptors' and one will see just how the F-22 will be utilized.......
I've stated it before and it has been stated many times throughout the internet....by the time one 'sees' or detects a Raptor...its virtually too late. Technology of the Raptor will allow for 'seeing' the enemy well in advance of the enemy spotting and detecting a Raptor...by that time....it will virtually be too late.
Philosophies and doctrines are the key to understanding this.....not that because a pilot can do a "Pugachev Cobra" maneover or has a highly maneoverable aircraft.....in both cases, A2A missiles have become just as highly maneoverable. So bascially it will boil down to who detects and fires first...in most case. In the other cases, maneoverability will be needed....As applied.......if you can perform a "Pugachev Cobra" with a highly maneoverable aircraft and my aircraft is just as highly maneuverable and has the ability to shot from an unlimited AoA....who will win?


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 11-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Seekerof

Yes, aside from the F/A-22 (which hasn't even entered service yet), U.S. aircraft aren't particularly manueverable. They may be able to turn a larger radius, but the fact they make such wide turns makes them disadvantaged in air combat.

I've said this myself, in BVR combat, American fighters will win. But in ACM dogfights, U.S. fighters simply can't hack it. And no air war always stays BVR. There will be situations where even the F/A-22 has to get down and dirty, especially against capable enemy. And I am not limiting this to the F/A-22, as you are. The F/A-22 is not the only fighter in the U.S. inventory.

From what you say, you seem to be implying that the F/A-22 will be the ONLY fighter used in an air war.

The F/A-22 is only ONE type of fighter. F-15Cs/F-15Es, F-16Cs, F/A-18Es, F-14As are all fast but not as quick.