Israeli F-16's Fire At German Naval Vessels

I love people who love peace unless its violence against Israel.

I just said that if Germany is treatenned by anyone, including Israël, they should act no matter the country against them.

*Sighs*

You know this stuff just really does'nt surprise me anymore.

I'm all for Germany or France shooting them out of the sky if
they try anything else.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
They should shot down any Israëli plane that crosses the border. If they are not happy, they should go to war with the UNIFIL or make a complain to the UN because they can't cross the border. And the US should stop supporting Israël until they STFU and respect international laws.

That is the point and well said. It is time that Israel realizes that it is part of this world and not just living in its own little world where only Israel and its friends matter above the rest of us.

Isreal needs to grow up and get over this entitlement crap. If germany went to war against isreal isreal would get creamed and quick. The US would have it's hands tied and not be able to give support to either and thats when isreal would get real hurt. They simply can not sustain a large full scale war for a long duration, which would happen if Germany decideds to be offended.

Still cant figure out a legitamit reason for helping Isreal out especially since the USS Liberty attack. Isreal is no ones friend except who they can exploit. Like the US. It's not a jew thing it's an Isrealie thing. I know plenty of great Jewish people. I have never met an Isrealie who wasn't arrogant, overconfident, and disrespectful to anything that wasn't Israelie.

Isreal hasn't been attacked by a force as developed or advanced as Germany or France and a reality check would occure real fast once they did. The myth that isreal is the greatest at everything under the sun would deminish real fast.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

It seems no one posting likes Israel very much.

I noticed a few saying out Germany should have ... blown them out of the sky..

I love people who love peace unless its violence against Israel.

Germany wouldnt dare do it because Israel could kick their @$%, they are a powerful country. They wouldnt do it also because the world would right away see germans killing Jews.. which of course would be taken out of context just to make Israel look inocent. Israel also has friends in high places, we put them on a higher priority then German, and especially France.

I sincerly doubt that Israel would beat Germany, you know.

Ignoring all other parties and letting the two go toe to toe and you would very well see what happens when a tiny ME nation goes up against the 4th Largest economy in the world. With their huge manufacturing base, huge population, more than capable weapons technology (Probably the best MBT in the world for starters), larger and more sophisticated Air Force and Navy, Israel would not stand a chance.

But thats all hypothetical anyway. Germany still hasn't grown it's balls back yet after WW2 and to be seen as shooting at (pauses for gasps) Jews would just make Israel seem like the poor victim, again....

That being said, I notice the IAF won't do this to French or British warships. they know we don't have historical hang ups and would more than likely shoot back and hard. Israel has no balls either.

They pick on the weak and those they can't pick on, they get their great benefactor to go and beat up. Kind of like the little scrawny kid whose best mates with the school bully. More than happy to throw his weight around, but as soon as someone bigger turns up, they go crying to their mate...

[edit on 25/10/06 by stumason]

This is just outrageous behavior on israels part.What could have possibly been going thru their minds by attacking a UN warship?At the very least they deserve a stern warning at the UN that such behavoir will not be tolerated and UN forces will retaliate.I would really like to hear an official israeli explanation for this aggression.

In a naval confrontation (the only kind likely), the Israelis would be in a very poor position against the Germans, who have a much larger and more capable fleet. And the IAF is neither equipped nor trained to go up against a modern naval force, they've never really had to worry about anything more threatening at sea than obsolete frigates and small missile boats.

However I don't think any such confrontation is likely - the Israelis are simply pushing to see how much they can get away with. When push comes to shove, they have no realistic choice but to back down, assuming the Europeans are willing to put their money where their mouths are.

The Israelis are being strategically stupid anyway - at least if their goals are truly defensive - their only shot at getting Hezbollah disarmed is a Lebanon that no longer feels it needs them around to fight off another Israeli invasion. Their misguided campaign this summer has set that possibility back another few years at the very least.

It's clear their leadership is plagued by the same vein of testosterone-addled muddy thinking as the US's neocons. As the US managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq, after a largely successful (but curiously unfinished and prematurely abandoned) campaign in Afghanistan, so Israel managed to lose anything they gained when Syria withdrew it's forces from Lebanon, by launching a campaign that only handed Hezbollah a heretofore unknown aura of legitimacy.

The IDF spokesman denied that the air force had attacked a ship or opened fire in the vicinity, but said that IAF jets had been launched early Tuesday when a helicopter took off from a German aircraft carrier in waters close to Rosh Hanikra without identifying itself in accordance with United Nations regulations. The incident was quickly solved without confrontation, the spokesman said, and only flares were fired.

This statement was right out in the middle of the article, but for some reason... omitted. ???
Seems to me the F-16's had reason for deployment and all was settled somewhat peacfully. Just some "How-Do -You-Do?" flares...

Yeah, this is totally nuts.

I can't honestly think why someone would defend Israel's position on this. Its just totally illegal.

The Israeli Air Force is one of the best in the world, but ship-to-air missiles are wicked.

The whole Isreal v. Muslim world can be summed up as a back seat argument between two children... "Mom, she keeps poking me!"

I think the Germans win this round regarding the hypothetical.

One word. Panzerhaubitze 2000

Makes the crusader artillery prototype look down right crude.

[edit on 25-10-2006 by Galvatron]

wow its so stupid that the germans didnt fire at them.those israelis really want a good whooping

Theoretically if the Germans had fired back, then it's possible the IDF would've srambled more jets and maybe a few missile corvettes as well, the Germans have a number of destroyers in the area which would possibly get called in, and the results would be a little messy I'd imagine. Of course in reality the Germans wouldn't fire on anyone, especially the Israeli's.

Didn't anybody else read the "Source" link....?
It says a German helicopter lifted off of an Aircraft Carrier without identfying itself.
This was in an entire paragraph that was conveniently omitted from the original post. Why is everyone so quick to jump without getting the whole story.
I'm sure the headlines would have been much bigger worldwide, had two planes actually "fired" at any other subs...

Originally posted by Pitt
Didn't anybody else read the "Source" link....?
It says a German helicopter lifted off of an Aircraft Carrier without identfying itself.
This was in an entire paragraph that was conveniently omitted from the original post. Why is everyone so quick to jump without getting the whole story.
I'm sure the headlines would have been much bigger worldwide, had two planes actually "fired" at any other subs...

Even so, what makes the Israelis think they can buzz a German warship (whatever happened) just because a (assuming) German Helo took off from a (assuming) German ship? Common sense would dictate that a helicopter taking off from a EU/Nato Vessel is not likely to be a)beligerent and b)smuggling arms.

Nice to see this comment though:

In response to threats by French forces to open fire on IAF overflights, Peretz said, "we will in no way take these threats, and we've made that clear in conversations with all parties."

The French seem to have some balls. Although, Peretz makes no sense in his response. Could he be saying:

we will in no way take these threats seriously?
we will in no way take these threats lightly?
we will in no way take these threats lying down?
we will in no way take these threats eating a cheese sandwhich and burping "La Vi da Loca"

What does he mean?

Originally posted by Pitt
Didn't anybody else read the "Source" link....?
It says a German helicopter lifted off of an Aircraft Carrier without identfying itself.
This was in an entire paragraph that was conveniently omitted from the original post. Why is everyone so quick to jump without getting the whole story.
I'm sure the headlines would have been much bigger worldwide, had two planes actually "fired" at any other subs...

Actually during the course of the day Haaretz "updates" the articles. It went from The original to Peretz Denies any shooting took place. Sounds like damage control if you ask me. Haaretz has always been accurate when it comes to breaking stories. I remember when they first broke the phosphour bombs story , they also had to change the story after a while. I would imagine they come under a great deal of reader pressure and possibly government pressure. If you read some of those feedbacks the readers will directly call Haaretz as being Anti-Israeli and working for the enemy. I thing over arab or american news they are one of the better ones.


Pie

Common sense would tell me that, if anyone flew near a coast of any major U.S. city without identifying themself.... I think a "flyby" is certainly in order. If the German helicopter didn't feel inclined to respond to protocol, why wouldn't the
pilots also question the integrity of the German manned subs?
I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to make sense of the situation...

Originally posted by Pitt
Common sense would tell me that, if anyone flew near a coast of any major U.S. city without identifying themself....

Pitt
I don't mean to be critical but a country that seems to supposedly know the business of all its neighbors at any given time, all of a sudden has a spate of amnesia that they forgot UNIFIL forces are posted in international waters off the Lebanese coastline? Its not Israeli territory that they should need any permission to take off from the ship from Israeli forces. Its also highly unlikely that it could be Hezbollah with a top secret battleship.

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
imagine the news headlines if that happened.

"Germany strike TERROR AGAIN into the hearts of the defenseless poor Israeli's, bringing back graphic memorys of the holocaust for sum."


But i really hope the french put Isreal in there place.

[edit on 26-10-2006 by helium3]

Originally posted by Pitt
Common sense would tell me that, if anyone flew near a coast of any major U.S. city without identifying themself.... I think a "flyby" is certainly in order. If the German helicopter didn't feel inclined to respond to protocol, why wouldn't the
pilots also question the integrity of the German manned subs?
I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to make sense of the situation...

Firstly, they are there as part of a UN mandate, not at the behest of the Israelis. If a German Helo wants to take off, it should be free to do so without fear of the Israeli's buzzing them.

Secondly, it's not Israeli territory. Nuff said.

As to the integrity of the Germans, it's a hell of a lot better than that of the Israeli's. You can bet your bottom dollar that the Germans will not be supplying Hezbollah or anyone else with weapons.

EDIT: why do you keep mentioning subs? Never have I seen a helo take off from a sub before....

[edit on 26/10/06 by stumason]

The yehudis are clearly trying to intimidate the euros out of lebanon, or at least to set up the intimidation so that the euros won't do anything if the yehudis need to raid lebanon again.

This is an odd situation. On the one hand, the euros aren't going to fire on or shoot down teh yehudi jets (unless, of course, they are targeting the euro ships and shooting to kill, as opposed to shooting around them just to intimidate, neither is acceptable).

So in a certain sense, its a good choice for the yehudis. They know that hezbollah is reorganizing in lebanon, and they know that the UN troops aren't going to do anything to stop it. There's no real risk of war between israel and the UN, so they don't have much to loose, except in terms of public perception, and most people seem to hate them now anyway.

Anyway, I'm not trying to defend these actions, but that seems to be the only reasonable rationale, that they are setting the stage for any possible future incursions into lebanon.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
They should shot down any Israëli plane that crosses the border. If they are not happy, they should go to war with the UNIFIL

You do realize that that war would be even quicker than the Israel-Lebanon War no? The yehudis would mop the floor with them, and the euros, especially the french and germans, clearly aren't interested in overseas deployments.

stumason
Ignoring all other parties and letting the two go toe to toe and you would very well see what happens when a tiny ME nation goes up against the 4th Largest economy in the world.

The germans wouldn't stand a chance. They'd be knocked out of the med if they came by sea or destroyed inside lebanon as they enter it from the north. And if things got real hectic, Berlin'd get nuked.

Germany still hasn't grown it's balls back yet after WW2

And lets hope they don't. Look at what they did in ww2, they'll do it again.

I notice the IAF won't do this to French or British warships. they know we don't have historical hang ups and would more than likely shoot back and hard.

So shoot at them. If they're all there as UNIFIL, then an attack on one is an attack on all.
BUt, of course, UNIFIL is a joke, as are any UN actions in the region.

What does he mean?

He seems to be saying that he is going to ignore the french requests.

xmotex
In a naval confrontation (the only kind likely), the Israelis would be in a very poor position against the Germans, who have a much larger and more capable fleet

I doubt that they'd hesitate to use tactical nukes on an invasion fleet.

helium
But i really hope the french put Isreal in there place.

I don't understand why people are even considering that the french woudl do anything here. No euros are going to attack the yehudis without an actual attack occuring, and certainly, if people are pinning their hopes on the military power of the french, well, then hope is all they've got.

[edit on 26-10-2006 by Nygdan]