"Come out of her my people" Rev 18:4

From a Holy perspective, what message is in these words? And when are we to heed this calling?

I wonder if there are others who are hearing this calling in this age? Something is not right in the congregation today. There is something off in the way the shepherds are moving their herd thus some sheep are fleeing the herd. I am not able at this time to pin point the "off" so I wonder if you can. I don't attend a church building so to speak, but I keep a watchful eye and a close ear on the things happening today. I think it is time to awaken and consider the messages being sent. Now is the time to put on the full armor of God Ephesians 6:10-17.

Originally posted by HarpStrings
From a Holy perspective, what message is in these words?

Holy = pure

The 'church' is not pure - it mingles with politics, world (and community) economics, and worst of all - man's doctrines and theologies (which are geared toward increasing man's own self-image of piety - which is something non-existent in reality - and justification for things done for 'self.')

And when are we to heed this calling?

As soon as you hear (and understand) it!

I wonder if there are others who are hearing this calling in this age?

Certainly; more and more.

There is something off in the way the shepherds are moving their herd thus some sheep are fleeing the herd. I am not able at this time to pin point the "off" so I wonder if you can.

Basically just falseness. Worldly things, selfish things - not truth.

I thought others would appreciate the whole text of Rev 18

[Revelation 18]
Dirge over the fallen city

1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority; and the earth was made bright with his splendor. 2 He called out with a mighty voice,
"Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
It has become a dwelling place of demons,
a haunt of every foul spirit,
a haunt of every foul bird,
a haunt of every foul and hateful beast.
3 For all the nations have drunk
of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her,
and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxury."

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you do not take part in her sins,
and so that you do not share in her plagues;
5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Render to her as she herself has rendered,
and repay her double for her deeds;
mix a double draught for her in the cup she mixed.
7 As she glorified herself and lived luxuriously,
so give her a like measure of torment and grief.
Since in her heart she says,
'I rule as a queen;
I am no widow,
and I will never see grief,'
8 therefore her plagues will come in a single day —
pestilence and mourning and famine —
and she will be burned with fire;
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her."

9 And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning; 10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,
"Alas, alas, the great city,
Babylon, the mighty city!
For in one hour your judgment has come."

11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 12 cargo of gold, silver, jewels and pearls, fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet, all kinds of scented wood, all articles of ivory, all articles of costly wood, bronze, iron, and marble, 13 cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, choice flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, slaves — and human lives.
14 "The fruit for which your soul longed
has gone from you,
and all your dainties and your splendor
are lost to you,
never to be found again!"
15 The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud,
16 "Alas, alas, the great city,
clothed in fine linen,
in purple and scarlet,
adorned with gold,
with jewels, and with pearls!
17 For in one hour all this wealth has been laid waste!"

And all shipmasters and seafarers, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning,
"What city was like the great city?"
19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out,
"Alas, alas, the great city,
where all who had ships at sea
grew rich by her wealth!
For in one hour she has been laid waste."

20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints and apostles and prophets! For God has given judgment for you against her.

21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,
"With such violence Babylon the great city
will be thrown down,
and will be found no more;
22 and the sound of harpists and minstrels and of flutists and trumpeters
will be heard in you no more;
and an artisan of any trade
will be found in you no more;
and the sound of the millstone
will be heard in you no more;
23 and the light of a lamp
will shine in you no more;
and the voice of bridegroom and bride
will be heard in you no more;
for your merchants were the magnates of the earth,
and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.
24 And in you was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slaughtered on earth."

I think it's pretty straight forward, and I think we all know what Babylon is. Moreover, I think we can all agree that getting out may be a good idea.

It is always time to be wearing the armor of God.

However, the passage you're speaking of is not talking about Christ's bride, the church. It is talking about Babylon. For the full context, you can read chapters 17 (explains a bit of the symbolism) and 18 here

However, a church building is not the bride of Christ, it is the community of believers, as described in Acts 2 best or else Ephesians 4 (amongst other places).

This section of Revelation also describes the end times. Granted, the world is headed in that direction, the true Babylon has not emerged yet. As God's people, though, we should not be of the world, we should be something separate, though we are still to be in the world. Remember, Christ commanded us to be the light of the world, and to do that, we need to be in the world. Yet, to be a light in this dark world, we cannot partake in that which the culture tells us is acceptable.

Moreover, we must be a part of a Christian community (church) if we are to be able to fulfill this great commission. Why? Because you and I are not strong enough, nor faithful enough, to run this race on our own. This is why God has called us into the church community. When we are weak, our fellow believers can strengthen us. Granted, God does this as well, but often times I've found myself actively ignoring Him when a fellow church member grabs ahold of me and forces my eyes back on the King such that I'll listen to His guidance again.

The scripture is quite obvious. It's also called the "great falling away." It must happen.

Moreover, we must be a part of a Christian community (church) if we are to be able to fulfill this great commission. Why? Because you and I are not strong enough, nor faithful enough, to run this race on our own.

Jake,no offense, but I do not believe that for one instant.

[edit on 24-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 24-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

I don't think it's safe to assume that we all know who/what Babylon is. Rather than assume we are all on the same page so to speak, I'd like to know what other people think. I've heard many interpretations. The main one is that Babylon=Rome or Vatican and I don't fully (notice I stated fully) agree with this.

Over the years I too have considered a few but they haven't lined up with Scripture. And I figure if one is going to rely on info provided via the Bible (Word) than one can only seek those answers from within the Word or others who are alo in the Word.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The scripture is quite obvious. It's also called the "great falling away." It must happen.

Consider a metaphor: you are looking off into a huge crowd of people, you don't know at this distance who is who, then the ones you seek step out of the huge crowd. Now you can see the separation or falling away either by the ones left behind or the ones who moved away.

That's how I view the church body today.

~~



the 'Her' is Babylon (the Great City) which could also mean nation or social system, in the word meanings used by 1st century prophet

that Babylon is also the land where the Mark-of-the Beast system originates

so, it would seem that even believing Christians are welcome participants
in the affairs & workings of the social-economic-political juggernaut that the
end-times Babylon is described as being...
therefore it should be a warning to all, that getting caught up in worldly affairs,
commerce, wealth creation, pleasure seeking, comforts & isolationist security...
could actually be the snare that traps people, including Xtians who are called to
come out of her

of course, somebody could spin this to mean that the
coalition forces should withdraw from Iraq (aka Mesopotamia)
the ancient home of Babylon itself !

The Ancient City of Babylon

You won't be able to see the new construction of the multi-nation facility the US is building because of the date of the photo but you will see a lot of activity.

Google Earth Coordinates
N32.32.33 E44.25.21

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The scripture is quite obvious. It's also called the "great falling away." It must happen.

Moreover, we must be a part of a Christian community (church) if we are to be able to fulfill this great commission. Why? Because you and I are not strong enough, nor faithful enough, to run this race on our own.

Jake,no offense, but I do not believe that for one instant.

I have to agree with Speaker on this, and those are my sentiments, as well. The Truth is that the "Whore" of Revelations is none other than the Apostate Church--ergo-- those who have turned away from the Faith, "prostituting themselves" to the Secular, and the material World--"---having the Form of Godliness, but denying the Power of it". This is why She rides the back of the Beast--She is the one who reared it and trained it, and controls it. Babylon is a concept and a Paradigm as well as a Country. Don't make the false connection that this deals with the Iraq War--it doesn't.

Understand that it is all a part of the greatest of all Conspiracies--The Conspiracy Against God.

Originally posted by junglejake
It is always time to be wearing the armor of God.


Moreover, we must be a part of a Christian community (church) if we are to be able to fulfill this great commission. Why? Because you and I are not strong enough, nor faithful enough, to run this race on our own. This is why God has called us into the church community. When we are weak, our fellow believers can strengthen us. Granted, God does this as well, but often times I've found myself actively ignoring Him when a fellow church member grabs ahold of me and forces my eyes back on the King such that I'll listen to His guidance again.

True, we should always wear the armor of God. But there is an actual time and place to put on the FULL armor of God.

I think we should do exactly what we are doing right now. Talk to one another and listen. If there is something wrong within the church body, you can just bet that there are many more who are picking up on this too but might not sure what it means or even what to do, so they just stay or silently walk out. Neither are good choices in my opinion! For the sake of others, we should speak up or reach out, this is what it means to adorn the FULL armor of God. Gods people may depend on you and me!

(Faith is what gives us strength TO run that race) Faith is never having to feel left alone. God called His people in and will also call His people OUT. That's what this discussion is about.

Er Babylon is in Iraq and it is farily plain to see that what is in that revelation is happening in Iraq today.

The Bible is about the jews and muslims that originated in the Holy land. It is not about the rest of the world other that when it talks of gentiles.

That does not mean the rest of the world will not be part of the revelations, but when you read the bible before Christ you need to know that it is about the land in the middle east. It is not America, Russia or any other breat City it is the Original Babylon that really existed and is now Iraq.

Just take the bible by its word when it is clear, and it clearly speaks of the real Bablyon. In this case Babylon is not a metaphor.

That scripture spells out modern day Iraq as it is today. We need to leave there, that is the message.

"For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication"
Oil anyone?

a haunt of every foul spirit, Different Islamic beliefs? Sheites, Suni?? Al-queda etc..
a haunt of every foul bird, America? Eagle?

a haunt of every foul and hateful beast. Terrorists?

Seems pretty clear to me.


[edit on 24-10-2006 by Xeven]

It was Paul (probably) who insinuated it, SpeakerofTruth in Hebrews, specifically 10:25:

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

(NIV)

Ed Littlefox, there is danger in knowing exactly what prophesy is talking about. The Jewish scholars of Christ's time knew exactly what prophesy was talking about, exactly how the Messiah would come, as a warrior, liberating Israel from Rome and giving them a nation. Because they knew what would happen, they missed it. A church will play a role in the end, as it appears the world will accept one world religion, but will it be at the forefront or merely a pawn has yet to be determined. Remember Paul's (probably) words to the Hebrews, that as they see the Day approaching, they should become an even closer community, encouraging one another as the world gets darker and darker, with its influence growing stronger and stronger.

I have no illusions; if Peter can fall and become a tool of the Enemy while being with the physical Jesus, needing to be rebuked by Him, why would I believe I'm strong enough to walk this walk on my own?

HarpStrings, I have to hold contention about the full armor of God. At all times should we have the shield of faith, the belt of truth, the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the boots of readiness and the sword of the spirit. It takes time, and is a sign of maturity to have the full armor equipped, but nonetheless, every part of that is crucial for our walk with Christ.

As to what you have to say about the church, I agree. Silence doesn't work, and walking away doesn't work, either. You have to remember, throughout the New Testament, the church is called the Bride of Christ. What you say in regards to her, then, you're saying about Christ's bride! We need to take example from the epistles to the churches, and even Christ in Revelation in addressing problems in the church. Always was it done with a gentle hand, even when Paul had to write a scathing letter to the church at Corinth. Always, too, was there encouragement, as well as rebuking. There are things the church is doing right as well as wrong, and all churches are different.

So it needs to be discussed, but intentions count. If you (universal you, not you specifically) are trying to badmouth for the sake of badmouthing the Bride, or to turn people away from Christian community, your intentions are not in line with what God calls us to, and you are not being used by God. If, however, your intentions are to rectify this errancy you see in the church, such as Luther and Calvin tried to do, it is a whole different matter.

What you've stated is clearer than clear to me and I agree. I, like other fellow members of the body of Christ(the Bride) do not want to blaspheme her. However, if there is, let's just say, a moving in of deceivers, then the Bride is a mixture of wheat and (chaff) and the only way to know who is who is with a mark, both Gods mark and Satans, that mark or sign is the falling away. It is prophesied and even God says to come out of her. That is what I know, believe, sense, feel whatever you want to call it. The moving in is taking place and has been and the moving away is subsequently taking place. It's a spiritual movement of sorts backed by the Word of God.

Remember the woman at the well. Jesus told her that we would one day worship Him in spirit and in truth. That was a bold statement Jesus made. She was a Samaritan, a woman and she certainly didn't worship God.

[edit on 24-10-2006 by HarpStrings]

Hi JJ and Harp--

Just to clear up a couple of things. There is a "False Bride" and it is under the influence of False Prophets. Revelations needs to be read in conjunction with th Old Testiment Book of Daniel, and the books of Timothy. Keep in mind that, in spiritual text, both Countries and Churches are referred to using the word "She".

JJ--

I agree with you in all but the fact thet it is a "bad thing" to know the extent of a Prophesy--Biblical or otherwise. There is great virtue in knowing the complete Truth regards God, Christ, and the Faiths. We are, as Harp has said, in a Time of "falling away" and you see this going on on the political front every day in the News. What Judea and the Temple Masters did to the Person of Jesus is a near absolute Mirror of what is going down currently in our Society. Of course the Scribes (The Literate, Livitical Lawyers, Intellectuals, and Academics of Jesus' Day), knew that Jesus was, indeed, the Promised One. They denied Him, yes, and that is because he did not suit their Political Climate and use within it, at the time. Jesus was a major threat to their continued existance and tenure as Ecclesiastical Governors, and , so, control over the People. These men used their Religious Beliefs, Status, and Office to further their own ends and best interests. They were Treturous, indescent, and corrupted internally--"Appearing as Whited Sepluchers on the outside, while inside, is corruption and death--". This mirrors what is going on in our Society at this time. Jesus stated in the Gospel of Ruth (one of the books removed in the Puriton Reforms) that The later days would appear as in His own time and to let this fact be a sign to the Elect.
There is nothing wrong with Knowledge of this, or the Prophesies about this, or teaching that to those with a ear and a desire to hear it.

In addition to the above, understand that the Revelation of John, having been called an "Apocalypse" is to mis-name it, as the Prophesies contained in it are not "apocalyptic". Apocalyptic Prophesies within the Bible and other spiiritual texts never contain Warnings. The prophesies of the coming of the Mesiah in the Old Testiment, are apocalyptic in nature--no warnings, no hope of prevention, they just happened. That the Revelation of John is not an apocalyptic prophesy is evidenced by the warnings to the Churches, which, if heeded, will prevent the occurance of the rest
'for the sake of the Elect".

HarpStrings--

I agree with you 100% in principal, re: your post.

Here is a nugget of truth. You can recognize a False Prophet, and False Faith, and a False Church by the fact that they Teach a Faith and a Doctrine of FEAR. Turn away from them, as they do not, and have never, known God. God is Love.

Originally posted by HarpStrings
From a Holy perspective, what message is in these words? And when are we to heed this calling?

You are to heed the call as soon as you feel the Holy Spirit convicting you of your sin and bringing you to the cross for forgiveness.

As far as the verse, in a nutshell it's telling people to come out of any and all false religion that does not speak the truth, that truth is in John 14:[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It is also a specific verse for the tribulation period and those living in it. The false religion of that time is probably not yet fully understood as to it's final form.

The really neat thing, Harp, is that he tells us what our "armor" is, and who we are guarding ourselves against. So there's no surprises if we just rely on the armor listed:

What are we guarding against? The schemes of the devil.

What is our armor?

the belt of truth (seek the truth and stand for it)
the breastplate of righteousness (try every day to live better than the day before - and this is in our relationships with our fellow man)
your feet fitted with the readiness that is the gospel of peace (Christ's life shows us this)
the shield of faith (the only thing that can protect us)
the helmet of salvation (knowing our future is set and therefore we must focus on stewardship to our fellow man)
the sword of the Spirit (the answers, and support, are in His word)
prayer (for we will not be given a burden on any given day that we cannot bear if we just remember to turn each day, at the end of that day, over to Him and start anew asking for forgiveness in our shortcomings of this completed day, and His strength and mercy to be with us on the coming day so that we can live it better for our fellow man)

Jake, anytime someone quotes Paul, my flags go up. Here is why.

Of the four Gospels, Paul is the one who didn't personally know Jesus Christ. Everything he wrote and predicted was based upon a "vision" that he supposedly had of Christ.

[edit on 25-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Of the four Gospels, Paul is the one who didn't personally know Jesus Christ.

The four gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Paul didn't rate a gospel. Sorry, but it's true. The writers of the gospels either knew Christ or were followers of thsoe who knew Christ. Mary, the mother of Jesus, had to have spoken with Matthew. He knew intimate details of how Christ was conceived and of what was in her heart.

Paul ... 'visions'. I admit that he had a remarkable change from his life of persecuting Christians; to being one of them. But still ... he got to know Christ from 'visions' and not from real life being with him. I place more confidence in those who knew him and/or knew those who knew him in real life.

That's just where I am on this.

Edited to add - that's nothing against Paul. I don't trust 'Revelations' much either. It's all 'visions'.

[edit on 10/25/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I place more confidence in those who knew him and/or knew those who knew him in real life.

That's just where I am on this.

Edited to add - that's nothing against Paul. I don't trust 'Revelations' much either. It's all 'visions'.

[edit on 10/25/2006 by FlyersFan]

Me too. I am not downplaying visions, but I put much more confidence in those who were there, than those who were not. Now, the gospels,as a whole, have been questioned because of the lapse of time that Jesus had came and went and when they were written. However, that is a whole other thread. I don't want to derail this thread too much.