Habeas Corpus Eliminated

I'm sorry but I've searched the forums trying to find a topic on this and I cannot so I am going to make a new thread.

On Sept. 28th, the US eliminated the writ Habeas Corpus - a law since the 1200's. I do not see why the Americans aren't in uproar about this. It is a cornerstone of American freedom and it has been taking away from them cleverly disguised under the whole sex scandal. I am not American but if I was I would be seriously scared right now. They have essentially eliminated all rights of Americans and found a loop hole throught he constitution.

Do something about this! Quit standing idlely by while they tear your freedom away.

Yeah.
So now Bush has exclusive rights to deem anyone in the world an enemy combatant regardless of citizen ship, hold them for life without trial, and torture them at his will. All within the means of the law.

Take into accounts that Bushy boy decided to add a clause in his torture bill protecting him and other senior party members from war crimes charges after his term expires, and we have a serious situation..

These things can have some very sinister implications, Americans should be outraged and flooding the streets about this.

Everyone I talk to either has no idea what habeas corpus is, or is pissed.

Unfortunately the ignorant people out number those who see the long term implications of this.

Even though the main stream news is doing storys about this, its still not getting into peoples heads that one day a cop will be able to arrest and hold you for life for absolutely no reason.

Originally posted by metro

On Sept. 28th, the US eliminated the writ Habeas Corpus - a law since the 1200's.

that's funny. since the 1200s. didnt realize the american indians had written laws.

that's funny. since the 1200s. didnt realize the american indians had written laws.

Habeas Corpus is a legal principle dating back to the 1200's from the English Magna Carta.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by etshrtslr

Habeas Corpus is a legal principle dating back to the 1200's from the English Magna Carta.
en.wikipedia.org...

i realize that, but he made it clear that he was talking about the US government, which has only been around for 230 year. besides that, the US government has done this in the past during time of war, and it is not the only government to do so. furthermore, i would like to see a link supporting his claim that habeas corpus has been suspended by the bush administration.

I thought congress was voting on that one this week or was... oh well! Considering everything else we have lost thats not the worst part of it. Most Americans are not fighting as much as they could because:
1: They dont know (Major media still #1 source of information)
2: They are virtualy indentured workers and have no time to do anything other than scrap with others for that last box of macaroni
3: Also the #1: FEAR. They govt. beats up anyone woh questions them in protests, arrests them afterwords at home and harasses them, AND AS WAS SEEN ON THIS VERY FORUM: they threaten people. Example: War on Terrorism forum: Juba the sniper 668 kills: my post on who I support in the war which was NOT the US govt. and the bu#e troops.
4: Most Americans right now lack leadship, they are still torn appart by individual organizations and movements if not still by the two major parties who at the top are two sides of the same coin.

At any rate, things wont change untill these organizations pull together and put forth leaders or a central council to lead the people on the whole and take measures to get EVERYONE involved. That includes talking on ALL the major issues in the USA which is not done still and why most people dont care, no one talks about the issues anymore. There are many factors and problems in the grand scale of things for the reasons of why nothing changes and they cannot be listed here due to lack of space. People would STILL be able to come up with more problems anyway...

once again, an opinion has been stated without the facts. this bill does not apply to american citizens....only to aliens determined to be enemy combatants:

S.3930
SEC. 7. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.

(a) In General- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by striking both the subsection (e) added by section 1005(e)(1) of Public Law 109-148 (119 Stat. 2742) and the subsection (e) added by added by section 1405(e)(1) of Public Law 109-163 (119 Stat. 3477) and inserting the following new subsection (e):

`(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.

`(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.'.

(b) Effective Date- The amendment made by subsection (a) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply to all cases, without exception, pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act which relate to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of detention of an alien detained by the United States since September 11, 2001.

that is the full extent of the habeas corpus exemption in this bill. metro's assertion that americans are having rights taken away from them was inaccurate at best. how about presenting the facts next time metro.

If I'm not mistaken, in time of national emergency, the Habeus Corpus can be suspended as well by presidential decree. (Executive Order). THAT has been around several decades.

Originally posted by snafu7700
that's funny. since the 1200s. didnt realize the american indians had written laws.

Originally posted by snafu7700
once again, an opinion has been stated without the facts. this bill does not apply to american citizens....only to aliens determined to be enemy combatants:

Originally posted by snafu7700
how about presenting the facts next time metro.

how about a little more guidance and a lot less sarcasm, eh?

i understood what the dude was trying to say... and this bill does apply to american citizens... from what i understand, any one of us can be arrested and stripped of our citizenship, which would make us an alien, and labeled an unlawful enemy combatant at any time, therefore nullifying the writ of habeas corpus... it's a scary situation mang...

"you're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" GWB

The bill itself is not scary, what is scary and frieghtening is the lack of reaction to it. Your rights just got stripped and taken away, something that is at the core of what made America, America was just removed and everyone is just dead pan, no reaction what so ever.

Are you all so trusting that this will never be used against you, or so scared that if you speak up that it wil be used against you? I just don't get it, but I personally find it scary.

I thought this would bring protests and rallys in the street, instead nothing. The silence is scary, not the law itself, it's the people who have the power, not the politicians, but it would seem that's something they don't understand anymore.

Originally posted by snafu7700
once again, an opinion has been stated without the facts. this bill does not apply to american citizens....only to aliens determined to be enemy combatants:

You get picked up. They say you are an enemy combatant. They don't have to charge you with anything, you are imprisoned, you never get a court hearing. How are you going to prove yourself when you don't even get a chance? Whatever they say goes.

i guess none of the last three posters actually read the bill i posted....not surprising really. as i mentioned, it applies only to aliens who are catagorized as illegal combatants, not american citizens. was john walker lindh stripped of his citizenship and labeled and illegal combatant? he should have been IMHO, but he wasnt. so why would they do it to anyone in the US? you guys are simply trying to sensationalize a simple story. american citizen's rights are in no way trampled on with this bill folks. go back and read the whole thing...i posted the link for crying out loud.

The Patriot Act, section 802 states that the commission of any crime that may harm a citizen can be considered "domestic terrorism", thus classifying the "criminal" as an enemy combatant.
www.epic.org...

The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that US citizens can be stripped of their citizenship and held as an enemy combatant. www.washingtonpost.com...

Combine these with the Military Commissions Act and you, yes, YOU, fellow citizens, will never, ever get out of jail. Since habeas corpus is no longer in effect, the rest of the Bill of Rights goes right out the window (though you cannot) OK, not the ENTIRE Bill. They still can't quarter troops at your house without permission. What a relief!!



[edit on 24-10-2006 by subject x]

snafu7700: And you don't know the abuse about Patriot Act... they said it wouldn't be use against US citizens... they lied, at least 5.000 people were arrested and jailed for no crimes because of the Patriot Act.

And how would you prove you're a US citizen when they take you to jail, and you don't have any form of trial? Would you take the chance?

Please refer to these links for verification of American rights being torn away.
If you think any of this is slanted, then maybe you deserve to have your rights taken away.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Habeas Corpus has not been suspended. It has been eliminated.

Originally posted by metro
Please refer to these links for verification of American rights being torn away.
If you think any of this is slanted, then maybe you deserve to have your rights taken away.

Habeas Corpus has not been suspended. It has been eliminated.

so just so that i understand you, instead of reading the actual bill which i have provided for you on this thread after you were too lazy to look it up yourself, you are going to use a utube presentation to back up your statements? lets see, utube or the actual bill in question......gee, hard choice!

please....deny ignorance and try reading the thing for yourself.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
snafu7700: And you don't know the abuse about Patriot Act... they said it wouldn't be use against US citizens... they lied, at least 5.000 people were arrested and jailed for no crimes because of the Patriot Act.

Link the source for those numbers there sport, k?

And how would you prove you're a US citizen when they take you to jail, and you don't have any form of trial? Would you take the chance?

Quite easily. Its called a social security number and birth certificate. :shk:
Here's a thought for you non-history buffs: try doing some research as to the last time that Habeas Corpus was suspended and why.

As it stands currently, Habeas Corpus has not been suspended nor "eliminated;" simply a figment of your imaginations, thus this thread and claims within it amount to garbage.

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Seekerof]

I have asked this question in two previous threads regarding the Military Commissions Act of 2006, but have yet to find the answer.

I wish to again reiterate that I do harbor deep misgivings about the direction our laws have taken since 9-11, and feel that the potential for real abuse does indeed exist. Nonetheless, I feel I serve myself and others better by knowing exactly where we all stand - citizens or otherwise - at the moment, than by presuming to know what this act means without the necessary legal experience or expertise.

I am not an attorney, interpreter of law, or a person who has ever taken a course in law. Therefore I feel I lack adequate experience or expertise to answer my question, which is why I have asked it.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 establishes the authority for the department of defense to conduct military commissions in accordance with the text of the act. My question is this:

Do not the following...

``(3) ALIEN.--The term `alien' means a person who is not
a citizen of the United States.

...when taken together with this...

948c. Persons subject to military commissions
``Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by
military commission under this chapter.

...and coupled with the distinct definition of non-alien unlawful enemy combatants as specified here...

``(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.--(A) The term `unlaw-
ful enemy combatant' means--
``(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who
has purposefully and materially supported hostilities
against the United States or its co-belligerents who is
not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who
is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces);
or ``(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of
the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006,
has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant
by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another com-
petent tribunal established under the authority of the
President or the Secretary of Defense.
``(B) CO-BELLIGERENT.--In this paragraph, the term `co-
belligerent', with respect to the United States, means any State
or armed force joining and directly engaged with the United
States in hostilities or directly supporting hostilities against
a common enemy.

Source
...mean that 1) there is a legal difference in definition between unlawful enemy combatants and alien unlawful enemy combatants, 2) that only alien unlawful enemy combatants are subject to military commissions as authorized by this act, 3) that the authority may exist under certain circumstances for United States citizens to be declared unlawful enemy combatants, but that 4) this does not make them subject to these military commissions because the definition of an unlawful enemy combatant is distinct from that of an alien unlawful enemy combatant? In other words, because of this distinction, could United States citizens be exempt from these commissions? Otherwise, making a distinction between unlawful enemy combatants and alien unlawful enemy combatants and specifying that only alien unlawful enemy combatants may be subject to these commissions would be redundant in my opinion, because any person declared to be an unlawful enemy combatant would automatically become an alien as well, so as to justify making them subject to military commissions. Because the act makes this distinction, does this mean U.S. citizens cannot be made subject to military commissions under this act without a certain measure of creative interpretation and bending of the rules?

I am not saying that this is necessarily the case, which is why I have posed it as a question (or series of questions.) I am also not saying that the potential for abuse does not exist. I am indeed quite concerned by that potential, which I do feel exists and will remain an issue for the foreseeable future, in my opinion. However, I wish to ascertain this act's scope with the greatest degree of accuracy possible, and as I am not a legal expert, I am not capable of doing so to my satisfaction. Clarification by anyone with the expertise or knowledge necessary to make this determination would be greatly appreciated, as I am truly concerned about this (and other similar) laws created since the advent of the War on Terror.

I wish to conclude by saying that questioning the scope of this act should not be interpreted as an endorsement of it on my part. Even if such limitations are inherent in the act, I still have deep personal misgivings about any law which limits the rights of those accused of crimes or threats against any nation. That is a personal view, however, whereas this post is primarily concerned with the technical, dispassionate scope of the legal act in question.

in regard to this topic, the following thread should be of much interest...

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

i just read all 13 pages and i still think that in the long run, we as Americans are gonna get the shaft, like majorly... the USA is going to hell in a handbasket, and something needs to be done about it, and quickly... and it's not the voting that's gonna change anything either...

m3rlz, thank you for posting the link to the ongoing discussion of this new law.

Please post your thoughts in the following thread:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Closed.