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Who's stolen Christmas?

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posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 03:36 PM
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i dont have time to respond to the whole thing, BH, but here is the info you requested:


this was originally reported in the new york times:

source



"MORGANTOWN, W.Va. — Not long ago in my little mosque around the corner from a McDonald's, a student from the university here delivered a sermon. To love the Prophet Muhammad, he said, "is to hate those who hate him." He railed against man-made doctrines that replace Islamic law, and excoriated the "enemies of Islam" who deny strict adherence to Sunnah, or the ways of Muhammad. While he wasn't espousing violence, his words echoed the extremist vocabulary of Wahhabism, used by some followers to breed militant attitudes.

Americans need not look elsewhere to hear hate-filled rhetoric preached by fundamentalists. It resounds in our own back yards."


again, i defy you to find one instance where a muslim cleric in the US has been called to the carpet for what they are preaching.....and dont use the old "you claimed it, you find it" spin, because the whole point is that you wont find any. christians are held to a different standard than other religions.




posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 03:58 PM
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Religous entities are barred from preaching politics. While there are many adjectives that could be applied to what this person was preaching, the posted source does not provide any evidence that political is one of them.

For example, to say:

To love Jesus is to hate all that hate Him.

Is NOT political.

To say:

We must support the President of the United States...

or

We must oppose the policies of the President...

IS political. And that is what preachers and such are supposed to stay away from in the context of their house of worship.

The example provided does not lend credence to the position that Christian preachers are held to a different standard than other religions.

[edit on 16-11-2006 by Open_Minded Skeptic]



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 07:38 PM
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Source
But it's not just the White House that has been taken in. In Cleveland, the head of the local Islamic Center, Fawaz Damra, was exposed recently for having called on fellow Palestinians in Chicago to donate money to Islamic Jihad, a terrorist group, this despite being the model of interfaith cooperation in Cleveland. Damra is well-known for inviting Jews to celebrate the end of Ramadan at his Islamic Center, but he has also been videotaped in 1991 asking a group to donate money to kill Jews. " Who will give $500?" he asks on the tape, to kill "12 Jews," whom he calls "the sons of monkeys and pigs."



Source
Who is radicalizing American Mosques?
There are over 1,200 mosques in America. And according to the Hartford Institute, they are growing “at an almost unparalleled rate!” Up to 80 percent of American Mosques are funded and owned by Saudi Arabia. And the vast majority of these subscribe to the Saudi doctrine of Wahabism.
Wahabism is an 18th century ideology that states Islam should be spread throughout the world by engaging in violent Jihad (Holy War).


here is an extremely interesting read:

Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques

now dont get me wrong here, i fully recognize that there are just as many radical christians preaching hatred towards muslims and jews as there are radical muslims preaching hatred. the point, however, is that you dont see any action against the radical clerics, yet you see it against radical christians all the time. that's called hypocrisy.



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Religous entities are barred from preaching politics. While there are many adjectives that could be applied to what this person was preaching, the posted source does not provide any evidence that political is one of them.

The example provided does not lend credence to the position that Christian preachers are held to a different standard than other religions.

[edit on 16-11-2006 by Open_Minded Skeptic]


i am episcopalian by faith, but having grown up in the deep south, i have attended services of just about every faith from southern baptist all the way up to catholic. i have also attended two passover services, and, out of simple curiousity, one service at a mosque. as of the present time, i have as of yet to hear any sermon in which the speaker's political view was not expressed. to say that any faith is more political than another is naive in the extreme.



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 10:29 PM
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Who really cares?
If you want to celebrate Christmas do it. Don't let others dictate it for you.
If you want to pretend it's baby Jesus birthday, go ahead.
Buy me a present too, please.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:07 AM
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origin of christmas


But remember, these people had grown up in pagan customs, chief of which was this idolatrous festival of December 25th. It was a festival of merrymaking, with its special spirit. They enjoyed it! They did not want to give it up! Now this same article in the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge explains how the recognition by Constantine of Sunday, which had been the day of pagan sun worship, and how the influence of the pagan Manichaeism, which identified the SON of God with the physical SUN, gave these pagans of the fourth century, now turning over wholesale to "Christianity," their excuse for calling their pagan-festival date of December 25th (birthday of the SUN-god) the birthday of the SON of God.


But if one worships YHWH and believes in Yeshua Messiah, then it ought to be forbidden in your very spirit (nature) to participate in celebrations pertaining to other deities! To deny the truth, is to deny Him. Truth isn't always decked with holly and silver and gold, but the the blood Yeshua Messiah shed for YOU is priceless, are you willing to sell your portion for ribbons and bows? Think about it
It's not too late to say enough is enough.

YHWH has several 'beautiful' ordained feast days/celebrations that He gave to His children, sadly though, most don't even know what they are.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by snafu7700
to say that any faith is more political than another is naive in the extreme.


Who said that? You quoted OMS, but I cannot find the implication that one faith is more political than any other in his post. He simply said ...


Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
The example provided does not lend credence to the position that Christian preachers are held to a different standard than other religions.


In other words, there's no evdence of your claim of Christian-only persecution. And I must agree.


Originally posted by snafu7700
the point, however, is that you dont see any action against the radical clerics, yet you see it against radical christians all the time. that's called hypocrisy.


That may be true. I don't see it because I'm not looking for it. Perhaps if you looked, you'd find something.

And this particular discussion is so far off topic, not to mention tired, that I think it should have its own thread (and probably does). Make whatever personal observations you wish, as seems to be a pattern here, but I'm not convinced.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Who said that? You quoted OMS, but I cannot find the implication that one faith is more political than any other in his post.


now your moving into semantics. the overall point of his post was that one seemed political and one did not.



That may be true. I don't see it because I'm not looking for it. Perhaps if you looked, you'd find something.


which was the whole point, so why bother posting it at all?



Make whatever personal observations you wish, as seems to be a pattern here,


LMAO...and you are not making your own personal observations?


but I'm not convinced.


and i predicted as much two pages ago. for the fourth and final time, we'll just have to agree to disagree. i think we're through here.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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Why worry about offending someone by saying Merry Christmas? If they want they can say Happy Hanukkah right back at you. Its the season of peace and love, no need to get caught up in being PC.

I have a funny story. I dont have caller ID on my phone, so last Christmas I get a call, I was feeling good with family(wife wasnt yelling at me) so I answer the call thinking it would be funny to say "Happy Hanukkah, hows your yamukka" well of all the people it was my friend Solomon! He said you @$##$ you think your a funny guy dont you! I said Sol, my little jewish friend I really didnt know it was you! He said BS everyone has caller ID, I said, I dont though I decided I didnt need it and kind of like the surprise of not knowing who it is. He said Merry Christmas you S.O.B. and hung up. lol




posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 06:49 PM
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Does the ACLU like Christmas? I don't think so. These guys have power to change the laws and to force corporations to do what they want. They were for the separation of church and state from the beginning too.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Does the ACLU like Christmas? I don't think so. These guys have power to change the laws and to force corporations to do what they want. They were for the separation of church and state from the beginning too.


Ummm ... no ... the ACLU does not fight the corporations as much as you might think they do, just look at their contributors list.

Never bite the hand that feeds you.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Does the ACLU like Christmas?


What if they don't? I don't like Christmas either. It's a free country, right?



These guys have power to change the laws and to force corporations to do what they want.


How?



They were for the separation of church and state from the beginning too.


And the problem with this is...?



[edit on 17-11-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 03:14 AM
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Not sure if it's been said yet, but it's just like Jon Stewart said (paraphrased):

"It's 'Happy Holidays'. Not "Happy Holiday'. As in more than one Holiday. Sure, you could go around saying 'Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year', but then again, some of us have **** to do."



posted on Nov, 24 2006 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by HarpStrings
Here's a little insight into Christmas:

www.seedofabraham.net...


Wow that very eye opening thankyou, I of course had a knoledge myself on this but that really sums it up for me


Santa eh? Hmmmm



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:58 PM
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"Since the sun reaches its lowest noon-day altitude in the northern sky on the 25th December, the time of the winter solstice, this date was chosen for celebrating the nativity of Mithras. On this day his initiates held festivals and kindled lights, the gleaming tapers of which represented the fire of the newborn sun. "

Mithra being a god specifically worshipped by much of the Roman army before Christianity was made the official religion. And of course the Emperor wanted the army's support, so, yet another ancient tradition is manipulated for propaganda.


All of this is fiction, unfortunately. I have searched pretty thoroughly, and NOWHERE is there anything in ancient literature connecting Mithras with 25 Dec.

www.tertullian.org...

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by HarpStrings
origin of christmas


But remember, these people had grown up in pagan customs, chief of which was this idolatrous festival of December 25th. It was a festival of merrymaking, with its special spirit. They enjoyed it! They did not want to give it up! Now this same article in the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge explains how the recognition by Constantine of Sunday, which had been the day of pagan sun worship, and how the influence of the pagan Manichaeism, which identified the SON of God with the physical SUN, gave these pagans of the fourth century, now turning over wholesale to "Christianity," their excuse for calling their pagan-festival date of December 25th (birthday of the SUN-god) the birthday of the SON of God.



These statements are mistaken. The primary winter festival was Saturnalia, which concluded on 23 Dec. There is no evidence of any pagan state festival on 25 Dec. prior to 354, when the Natalis Invicti (the birth of the unconquered sun) appears in the list:

www.tertullian.org...

Christmas was already being celebrated at that time on that date. Likewise there is nothing connecting Constantine with the date of Christmas.

I myself believe that the Natalis Invicti was celebrated earlier; I merely point out the lack of actual evidence to show this.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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The Persian winter celebrations started on the 21st of December (the official birthday of Mithra). I've read in a few places that the movement of the day from the 21st to the 25th could be due to errors in counting the leap year.

Also, it's a bit strange that Pope Leo in the 4th Century switched the birthday of Christ from the 6th of January to the 25th of December.

"Ancient Persians also decorated an evergreen tree called SARVE. The Sarve or "Rocket Juniper" - also known as the cypress tree, being straight, upright and resistant to the cold weather, was known as a symbol of enduring hardship, thus appropriat for celebrating Mithra. The younger ones had their "wishes" symbolically wrapped in colourful silk cloth and hung them on the tree with lots of offerings to Mithra in the hopes that he would answer their prayers."



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
The Persian winter celebrations started on the 21st of December (the official birthday of Mithra). I've read in a few places that the movement of the day from the 21st to the 25th could be due to errors in counting the leap year.


We don't take any of our customs from Sassanid Persia, to the best of my knowledge -- they were, after all, our enemies in Roman times -- so unless you have some ancient text that states this I would treat it as probably misinformation. Persian Mitra and Roman Mithras are not connected, except by having some of the same letters in the word.



Also, it's a bit strange that Pope Leo in the 4th Century switched the birthday of Christ from the 6th of January to the 25th of December.


Even stranger when you realise that he was a 5th century pope...


Christmas is celebrated on 25 Dec. by about 330 AD. Why, precisely, does not seem to be recorded.



"Ancient Persians also decorated an evergreen tree called SARVE. The Sarve or "Rocket Juniper" - also known as the cypress tree, being straight, upright and resistant to the cold weather, was known as a symbol of enduring hardship, thus appropriat for celebrating Mithra. The younger ones had their "wishes" symbolically wrapped in colourful silk cloth and hung them on the tree with lots of offerings to Mithra in the hopes that he would answer their prayers."


This all sounds like misinformation to me. A modern Christmas owes all its ingredients to the last 100 years, as far as I know (but am willing to learn different). Aren't Christmas trees down to Prince Albert?

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse
We don't take any of our customs from Sassanid Persia, to the best of my knowledge -- they were, after all, our enemies in Roman times -- so unless you have some ancient text that states this I would treat it as probably misinformation. Persian Mitra and Roman Mithras are not connected, except by having some of the same letters in the word.


I was thinking more of the Achaemenid period, granted that the Sassanids modelled themselves on their illustrious predecessors, and also learned from the inevitable collapse of the hopelessly inefficient Parthian mode of government.

And, in fact, there is rather alot of research on the subject of Mithras being Persian in origin.

And anyway, not wanting to be flippant, Mithra was nothing more than one of many Gods whose properties were merged into the awesome form of Ahura-mazda. Once Ahura-Mazda became the head of the pantheon Mithra was relegated to "angel" status, though still with a large following since before Zoroaster's reforms he was regarded as the Sun God. The stark dualism of Zoroaster's "Good vs Evil" based philosophy probably appealed to your average Roman's (espacially military minded ones) sense of order, and therefore I feel that it is extremely likely that Mithraism spread from the East via the military and had a profound influence on the development of Christianity.

Still, in matters of religion there are no actual facts are there. What I write is nothing more than my opinion.

My profound apologies for the error in Popery.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 06:16 PM
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The theme and legend is adapted from Siberian Shaman..

long long ago.. the shaman (tribal leaders) went out into the forest and collected the presents mother nature gave them, underneath the pine tree, the presents being the Amanita Muscaria magic mushroom featured in such movies as Alice in Wonderland..
The Shaman found these mushrooms while they were walking in the forest, they noticed.. "reindeer" would run and knock the shaman over to get to the mushroom that grew underneath pine trees.. so the shaman ate it, ... (and got sick, because when the mushroom is wet it contains a poison that hasn't metabolized yet) and they noticed how other deer would drink the urine of the deer who had eaten the mushrooms, so the shaman tried (most likely eating the pee snow, don't eat the yellow snow?) so he drank or ate the urine ... and noticed he didn't get sick because the deer had metabolized the componds in the magic mushroom(amanita muscaria)......
so the shaman would collect those mushrooms and carried them in sacks obviously(they didn't have breif-cases) and since wet magic mushrooms are heavy the shaman decided to hang them on the trees to dry while the shaman collected more magic mushrooms.. than would put the presents(mushrooms) he collected from underneath the pine trees in his sack and use what ever transportation to get back to town...... in siberia in the winter, the snow is so high, people have actual entrances to their house built on top of the roof,... which gives the shaman the effect of 'coming down the chimney' .... and the towns-folk would use 'stockings'/'socks' over an open fire to fully dry out the mushroom, (they found out the dry mushroom has the componds metabolized during the drying process..).........

ummmm... did I leave anything out, anyone? I know theres lots of people here at ATS who are familiar with this.. go check out the history of siberian culture.. (pee drinking surely will be something that stands out)... I think they still have some of the old bowls they symbolically painted for drinking the pee of rich people who recieved the mushrooms when the poor people did not get any..

Oh and the Amanita Muscaria is RED and WHITE...

So.. who has STOLEN Christmas? ...
If you follow the logic of accepting it for what it is, .... and than saying 'those whacky siberians, thanks for those lessons silly!' [oh god shoot me]
than the people who disallow you to use those ritual tools while allowing you to carry out the symbol of it... are the ones who have stolen it, and made it their own.. (money holiday) ... so it went from a drug holiday to a money holiday.. big deal..
its just upgrading from one addiction to another..
like quitting the nasty habbit of smoking cigarettes but gambling twice as much after you quit smoking.

[edit on 11/27/2006 by PuRe EnErGy]



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