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Suicide: Who is the Real Victim?

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posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 04:21 PM
Chissler and Clook, they have found a biological indicator for suicide - if they haven't isolated a genome, they probably will soon. It runs in families. It's a little ridiculous to judge one another for being what we are. Some people may find themselves vulnerable at certain points in their lives to suicide. There are the traditional contributing factors. Some depressions are situational and need to be addressed with a change not a drug. Many people commit suicide as a result of addiction and the real culprit or disease is never even addressed. When I said I wonder how many they've killed, I meant message boards, the internet, computer games - now there's a new player on the scene. I see he's being greeted with characteristic derision. Such as that 16 year old boy who committed suicide after 20 hours of straight game-playing. Everyone pointed a finger in scorn, and let the real monster get away.

It's very simple to just be kind and it is the one true path.

[edit on 23-10-2006 by clearwater]

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 04:25 PM
Chissler, as always your posts are very thoughtful and heartfelt.

If there are grey areas in the world, suicide is grey. The person who self-destructs isn't always mentally ill. Or, perhaps they are ill, and on some level they know death is the only way to find clarity and peace.

If a family is left behind, they are indeed victims also, especially children. A child should never have to understand death in this way. But this doesn't make the suicide a coward; nobody will ever know what was in that person's mind at the end.

And then, due to events in their lives, some people do not allow, or are incapable of allowing, themselves to he happy. They are emotionally stunted or just too introverted for others to keep an interest in. The families they make an attempt at, the ones they try to love, are collateral damage in their quest for fulfillment.

The truth is that happiness is a fantasy. Some people find it, those that don't are left with an entirely different set of options.

posted on Oct, 23 2006 @ 04:38 PM
Choice Theory

William Glasser has his theory that he calls, The Choice Theory. It is based on the fact that all humans choose to behave in a manner that they do. Their choices are based on the urge to satisfy our needs.

Choice Theory® is the basis for all programs taught by the Institute. It states that all we do is behave, that almost all behavior is chosen, and that we are driven by our genes to satisfy five basic needs: survival, love and belonging, power, freedom and fun. In practice, the most important need is love and belonging, as closeness and connectedness with the people we care about is a requisite for satisfying all of the needs. Choice Theory (and the Seven Caring Habits) is offered to replace external control psychology (and the Seven Deadly Habits), the present psychology of almost all the people in the world. Unfortunately, this forcing, punishing psychology is destructive to relationships. When used in a relationship it will always destroy the ability of one or both to find satisfaction in that relationship, and will result in people becoming disconnected from those with whom they want to be connected. Disconnectedness is the source of almost all human problems, such as what is called mental illness, drug addiction, violence, crime, school failure, spousal and child abuse, to mention a few.

Boldness was added by myself for emphasis.

I agree with this theory and believe it can be related to many scenarios that we uncover. It is not for every instance, so noone please call for my head and say how disrespectful this may appear to be, but acknowledge the message that Glasser is trying to get across and the validity of his point.

Our decisions are based on the urge to satisfy our major needs which are; survival, love and belonging, power, and freedom. Our need for love & belonging is of course the important as disconnectiveness can certainly lead to negativity in ourselves. We don't have to be social butterflies, but it is essential that we do have somebody in our daily lives that we can converse with.

Loneliness can make a small problem into something catastrophic. I believe this to be the case when we here of a teenage suicide over a very small issue. The individual did not take the opportunity to discuss the issue with someone, and it turned into something larger than life.

[edit on 23-10-2006 by chissler]

posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 07:15 AM
Chissler, I really like choice theory. I'm of the opinion that the 7 deadly sins are really the 7 deadly defects of character or 7 instincts that can be misused and lead to destruction. Choice theory with its 7 deadly habits, appears to be integrating the concept into modern psychology.

I dreamt about this issue last night. Astygia says - "And then, due to events in their lives, some people do not allow, or are incapable of allowing, themselves to he happy. They are emotionally stunted or just too introverted for others to keep an interest in. The families they make an attempt at, the ones they try to love, are collateral damage in their quest for fulfillment."

That's exactly my point, when people are at a point where they are struggling with a problem, isolated, emotionally stunted or depressed, they will often find themselves turning to the internet as an outlet. I think the combination is deadly. That could have happened to me on any board. It just seemed every time I went there, something mean happened. (I think the grays just don't want me there. wink)

A greater awareness of the destructive and addictive nature of internet use is needed. I forsee the activity contributing to varying levels of psychosis and other symptoms of addiction. Header warnings wouldn't hurt. Addiction is a systemic and powerful disease and its presence in society is already mis-diagnosed and criminalized. Addiction is the leading cause of suicide. Namely addictions that don't require a substance, such as eating disorders and gambling. The despair endemic to addiction that is based solely on behaviour without a substance determinant is the most destructive form.

I find it a little harsh to say that families of suicide victims have been victims of their quest for fulfillment. People who die of cancer are not accused of selfishness.

I think if a person is nurturing to others, they'll be more likely to survive a suicidal urge, if it ever comes their way.

posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 08:19 AM
Its about wanting what you get, rather than getting what you want.

We create a fantasy for ourselves, too often it is something unattainable. In order to reach happiness, our fantasy world has to become our reality. So rather than turning your reality into a fantasy world, make your fantasy world your reality. Be happy with what you got rather that frustrated with what you didn't get.

posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 12:44 PM
This has been a very interesting topic filled with many wise comments which has helped me to look beyond the boundaries of my mind. It has allowed me the freedom to further process this tragedy beyond the traditional means; I hope it has not been to anyone's detriment. Kudos to chissler in his brave thread topic and his efforts at tempering sensitivity and respect.

By aligning yourself with the role of victim you feel powerless. I embrace the principles of Choice Theory, provided by chissler in his link, by recognizing power as one of the five basic needs that drive individuals. By definition, victim is one who suffers from a destructive or injurious action whereas, survivor is a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks. This also goes along with the theory that you are whatever you tell yourself that you are. It's the power of words that influences your thoughts and actions. All of us can attest to the power of words verbally, and especially on a message board.

The distorted thinking of those plagued with addiction/mental illness who strive to exert control over others through the use of the seven deadly habits, instead of their accepting the reality that the only person whose behavior they can control is their own. We define our happines, and we indeed control our thoughts and reactions in our environment.

Life is filled with many dangerous turns, but with the proper tools we can navigate these critical curves and reach our destination. A suicide is not the result of a single isolated event but the culmination of many events. As a result, survivors need to relinquish thoughts like "if only I had..." and accept that in the world of our loved one, there existed many perceptions of which we played a only a single role in their reality. Hopefully, in our reflection we can find peace in knowing that we exhibited caring habits in the relationship.

The grieving process for our family is complicated by the fact that, through the guidance of our therapist, we were changing our behavior to avoid enabling her to continue making excuses for the consequences of her addiction. This has been very difficult to reconcile and I pray that she now recognizes our actions as an act of love and not abandonment.

Success is getting and achieving what you want. Happiness is wanting and being content with what you get."
-- Bernard Meltzer

posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 02:59 PM

Originally posted by clearwater

I find it a little harsh to say that families of suicide victims have been victims of their quest for fulfillment. People who die of cancer are not accused of selfishness.

I think if a person is nurturing to others, they'll be more likely to survive a suicidal urge, if it ever comes their way.

I didn't mean it harshly. That's just the best way I could articulate what I meant.

People that are suicidal are often incapable of feeling happiness. Joy can actually be painful to some people, because they cannot dismiss the fact that one day, the joy will end. So they make as little emotional investment in anything as possible so they won't be as burned when it eventually ends.

Others may have a tiny spark of romance or a small fantasy of happiness which they eternally yearn for. Something as simple as being comforted by one who becomes their true love. They try to find "the one" on their own, perhaps build a family, but for whatever reason it doesn't work, whether it's through their own faults, outside circumstances, or a combination of the two. So they retreat further into themselves.

Usually such people are extremely dedicated workers at whatever they do, because they find comfort in either being good at at at least one thing, or just having a routine may give them contentment. But for most it won't fulfill the fantasy, and in terms of feeling whole, the fantasy is all they have.

People more educated than me have written several books on the subject, and I don't mean to discredit them or those that find sense in their writing, but just as I believe a mind cannot be tidily described and put into a definitive box, neither can emotion, and both of these things make us what we are.

The best cure is for people to be themselves, that way those that yearn for comfort and completion may find it. You never know what personal hells a person has walked through before facing you.

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Astygia]

posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 03:22 PM
This was a brave thread and it's helped me work through some of the stuff that so irked me. Astygia's right about the controlling aspects of addiction. That also is true for the co-dependent as well. With every one addict affected there are 20 co-dependents. Co-dependency is also an addictive cycle.

Whenever an addictive cycle is established in the brain it permanently changes brain chemistry. That never changes back, that's why with substances, abstinence is the only solution. It can also be the same for behaviours. Gamblers can never gamble again - and character and psychology from there forward require vigilance. We are supposed to garden our own characters anyway, the beauty of addiction is it makes it an absolute necessity.
So every person who has ever had a problem with addiction is susceptible to internet psychosis. It may not be a full-blown fugue, any good psychologist knows that psychosis has functional forms.

Which makes my experience very chilling to me. I really do wonder how many people have died from internet addiction and the stats go unnoticed or undiagnosed. I believe it will be a bigger problem in the future.

I believe there is no excuse for unnecessary cruelty: however, a person suffering through trauma is unable to recognize those opportunities that present themselves for healing and continue to focus on things that caused the trauma in the first place. Like prey animals that follow predators around. It really is a double bind for people in that situation and combined with the machine like indifference of computers, it can be quite deadly.


Thence come three maidens who much do know
Three from the hall beneath the tree
One they named was
The second is
These two fashioned a third named shall be
They established law
They selected lives
For the children of time
And the fates of men

posted on Oct, 24 2006 @ 03:28 PM
Thank you all for making it clear how beneficial this thread was. My intent was always to discuss the issue and hopefully learn a thing or two in the process. Respect for fellow members was the most important aspect above all, more than ever and I am ecstatic to say that so far we have not had the slightest issue with respecting another member and their story.

I may of authored the thread, but it has been each and every one of us who have taken the time to arrange our thoughts, opinions, and experiences into words. It has been these efforts that have made this thread special for me. I hope you have all enjoyed it half as much as I have.

Not to close the door on this thread, I just wanted to acknowledge my appreciation to the members who have taken part. I believe we have a lot to discuss, and several other issues to explore.


posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 07:10 AM
A veritable triumph of reason Chissler!

Just like sticking my tongue out.

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