Suicide: Who is the Real Victim?

Originally posted by chissler
No matter how bad things appear to be, I can not get past the fact that these individuals have turned their back on their family.

Assuming of course that the family hasn't turned their back on them first.. adding to their depression.

They have chosen to leave them in grief for the rest of their lives, and simply wonder where they went wrong.

With one 'suicide' I knew.. the family went wrong numerious times [abusive]. Of course at her funeral they all 'wondered why' yet apparently turned her away a couple a weeks previous when she found herself insane and homeless.
If someone has psychosis they probably cannot think rationally about their actions. I mean.. if a person gets their arm cut off they're not about to empathise with someone who has a splinter. They have their own concerns.

Suicide is a permanent solution, to a temporary problem.

Suicidal people do not realise this.. besides which life going bad is not always temporary for some.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by riley]

Gallopinghordes. Remind me to be very angry with you later on for not letting me in on that little tidbit...

Chissler. As usual a highly interesting and well done thread. WATS on the way.

My views on suicide are as follows: Neither wrong, nor right is the issue. Suicide to my mind is a scream for help, not a cry, but a scream...how many successful suicides were never meant to be successful, but were screams for help and attention? Can we ever know?

While working in Alaska, I had the horrific experiance, not once but three times of walking in on successful suicide attempts. Two were hangings, and the other was a shotgun. I hope someday to quit having the nightmares...

The two hangings were just two months apart, in the darkest time of the year, mid-January and later on in March. No notes, no real warnings other than they became very quiet, and withdrawn. We, the supervisory personnel, myself amongst them; noticed it, but when you're working between 16 and 18 hours a day for two to three months on end, and in the physical enviroment of a fish cannery in Alaska in the winter. Well everyone is quiet and withdrawn, because we're tired. On these two occaisions there is a certain level of guilt, at least for me; we saw it happening...these two were victims. In over their heads, too immature to deal with the strange world that is Alaska's fishing industry in the winter. We, having done this for several years, should have done a better job of watching out for, not only these two unfortunates, but the others as well.

The third was out of pure spite...he set out to destroy his ex by destroying himself, and in the process inflicted damage on not only his ex, but on the people who found him. He ate that shotgun out of malice. He was going to show her... the victim here were the people around him. I've tried very hard to forget this particular episode, but I know that after almost 15 years it isn't going to happen. The other two, I don't ever want to forget; I have to learn from those...never to take things as they appear.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation. The problem may be a permanent thing, a disability or something of that nature; but the situation that leads to the attempt or thoughts is, usually, transitory.

Suicide scars everyone involved...even those involved only in the parifery. Maybe wounds is a better word...just sitting here typing this, I've relived all three of those episodes, and some wounds just don't heal. Whether it's guilt over not doing more, or not seeing it. Losing a loved one. Wounds like that never heal, it only takes a little poke to feel it all over again.

The real victim? The ones left behind to deal with the aftermath. The person who suicided? Their pain is over, their pain was real, whether psychological or physical, or both...it's over.

Damn...I'm having some interesting moments here...Gallopinghordes and her bombshell, and then reliving these episodes...

Wow, great posts here full of wisdom, experience and compassion. Ed LF and Galloping, your posts especially touched me. Ed, I, too believe it was Great Spirit who intervened and I'm sure glad you're still here.

Chissler in answer to your question: Yes, I do believe without fail that depression is the cause. Why? Because it's completely unnatural for a person to want to commit suicide and there must be some kind of mental illness involved, which would be depression. Even suicide bombers, look at their living conditions, oppression, hunger, poverty until they become desperate and hopeless. Hopelessness is at the heart of depression.

Here are some symptoms of depression, from the DSM-IV book. You can Google "DSM-IV + depression" and get lots of info, there's alot of good info on the internet.

Here they are:

Criteria for Major Depressive Episode

A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same
2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least
one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or
pleasure.

(1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful).

(2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)

(3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.

NOTE: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.

(4) insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day

(5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)

(6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day

(7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)

(8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)

(9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode.

C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social,
occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance
(e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g.,
hypothyroidism).

E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the
loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are
characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with
worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor
retardation.

To this list I would also add:
- irritability; extreme anger

PLEASE if you know someone who may have depression or if you suspect yourself as being so, please consult a good psychiatrist or at least a GP who has experience and knowledge of depression. Also be aware that these symptoms are for major depression, there is also mild depression which can be debilitating but is much more easily treated. I know that psychiatrists and anti-depressants are not popular; but someone who has been down this road and recovered can tell you that a good doc and meds are the way to recover, herbs, exercise etc. will not alone work for major depression. Alot of the anti-psych and meds attitude is due to stereotyping, lack of information, bias and denial, most of which comes from people who've never had to deal with depression. Find a doc your are comfortable with, you need to be diagnosed and given medication. Welbutrin is one that has absolutely no side effects for the vast majority of people.

As a therapist, fjor 15 years I worked with alot of depressives and I myself had major depression for years with frequent suicidal ideation also for years. I can tell you that it's a trip through hell and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Imagine living with absolutely no ability to feel good, be happy or feel joy. Ever. If you suspect yourself or someone you know may have serious depression, find a good doc who will work with you to find meds that work for you. You may be saving their or your life. If this information saves even one life, I will be very grateful. If anyone has questions, U2U me and I will be more than happy to answer them. I will not make diagnoses however, I would need to see you in the physical to accurately assess. Therapy is also helpful, but it will not cure major depression by itself. Hope this info is helpful.

Here is a story that is related to this topic and a very sad one at that.

A lovesick 16-year-old girl crashed her car into an oncoming vehicle in a suicide attempt, counting down the moments before impact in text messages sent to the female classmate who spurned her, authorities say. The girl survived; a woman in the other car was killed.

The teenager, Louise Egan Brunstad, was charged Thursday with murder in the Oct. 4 wreck.

Authorities said Brunstad rammed her family’s Mercedes-Benz head-on into a smaller car driven by 30-year-old Nancy Salado-Mayo, a mother of three. Salado-Mayo was killed, and her 6-year-old daughter Lesly, who was in a child safety seat, suffered broken ribs and other injuries.

Brunstad, who was treated for an ankle injury, had told friends she planned to kill herself after another female student at Holy Innocents Episcopal School refused to have sex with her, Howard said.

www.msnbc.msn.com

Suicide goes beyond a person making a logical decision to end it all. My sister took her life only a year ago and I would prefer never to be called a victim of her death. In her death, she was the victim of a psychiatrist who treated her with a concoction of drugs that numbed her senses enough for her to complete a task that she swore she would never undertake. She had said repeatedly that she would never leave that legacy for her children to endure. That same legacy had been bequeathed to us by our mother, so she knew full well the torment that all of of us would bear.
The psychiatrist was not conducting his practice from a back alley. His colleagues consider him to be one of the best in his field. Yet with full knowledge of her family history, he prescribed an antidepressant along with both short and long term acting antianxiety medications. Part of the family history profile included addictions and previous suicide attempts from years ago. In my humble opinion, and also documented in the American Psychiatric Association's practice guideline for the assessment and treatment of patients with suicidal behaviors, prescriptions for Xanax, over a period of approx. 18 months, would have been the last type of drug you would prescribe.
The act of suicide is a desperate, and sometimes impulsive act in response to a variety of extreme emotions that is not usually balanced with rationality. Those emotions, in addition to depression, include rage, frustration, fear, rejection, and despair. I am sure that this act was only completed with thoughts such as "they will be better off without me". Rarely is the act of suicide committed without the influence of a mood altering medication. This was noted in several studies I have read.
Every human being faces challenges and obstacles that they must learn to naviagate through and endure. We must rely on a higher being, family, and friends, someone to support us when we feel overwhelmed. But when someone in our lives commits this ultimate act, then that deed exacts a toll that can change our philosophy on living a life with determination. That act is now introduced into every life that is touched by that death. I know my sister would never have wanted to be a part of introducing such an insidious act as an option to consider in overcoming any obstacle.

Edit: in response to GradyP...

That is sad indeed. I don't see why she chose a head-on with an innocent. That's just wrong. And all because she couldn't get some action? At 16?!

If only there was a way to scan people's brains for chemical imbalances.

Perhaps the future will bring us nanites which swim in our blood stream and monitor brain functions so that things like this can be treated before it's too late. We'll find solutions to our problems in time.

[edit on 10/20/2006 by Kruel]

Thank you for the link Grady.

It is stories such as this one, that leave us shaking our head. This girl wants to take her own life because of another student refusing intercourse. Mean while their are billions of people every day who are begging for one more day.

Children in Africa are crying for a piece of bread, and here we are killing ourselves over sex. I'm not even going to get into the ridiculous stories I have uncovered for people commiting suicide. When I hear of a story like this one, I think of some other child lying in a hospital bed with his mother on his side, and they cry for one more day or one more breath.

My thoughts are with the passenger of the other vehicle, and their families. They are also with the parents of the deceased, because they too are the victim here.





[edit on 20-10-2006 by chissler]

We can't summarize someone's pain in a sound bite and make assumptions about what prompted a 16 year old to slam into an oncoming car. Being refused a sexual encounter certainly does not illicit a suicidal reaction. The media write stories with a flamboyant twist to sell their stories. You can bet there's more to the story. Let's be reasonable...

Originally posted by clook
Being refused a sexual encounter certainly does not illicit a suicidal reaction.

That is a personal observation. For this individual it may of been a breaking point, that pushed her over the edge. We are in no position to say it was, and you are in no position to say it wasn't. We all perceive things and respond to stimulants in different ways.

Suicide is a task that is taken to stop the pain of living. If a person cannot have or find the passion to live, then they end themselves. If they believe they are not happy, nor ever will be and they think that they are not contributing to the human race, then surely it's their decision to get out of it?

Apology to Seagull but remember we talked about my darling daughter before. So you don't get to be too mad at me.

Seagull don't be too hard on yourself about the two hangings remember I've known you all your life and I'm 100% sure that you did the best you could at that time. Remember best is best. Also I wish I had some majic way of ending your nightmares but well best I can offer is sister love.

Forest Lady awesome insights and posts as usual I'm torn between you and Seagull for my last WAT.

As a last note to the survivors of suicide most likely there was no way you could have prevented it please don't feel guilty over what you might perceive as failures on your part.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Suicide is a task that is taken to stop the pain of living. If a person cannot have or find the passion to live, then they end themselves. If they believe they are not happy, nor ever will be and they think that they are not contributing to the human race, then surely it's their decision to get out of it?

Good point. Many people become snagged between the right to life and our obligation to loved ones. However, many of times these people choose to end their live it is due to a temporary problem. Their loved ones are left to suffer until the end of time, due to a temporary problem that could of been resolved if approached in the right manner.

Alls that I ask for is communication between the individual and their family. I support the righ to life, and if the person does not have the will to go on it should be their decision to make. However, they should be obligated to discuss it with loved ones and the law to prevent consequences in the future.

MacDonagh, do you consider suicide to be a selfish act?

There are different modes or states of mind of a person considering suicide.

There is the "I'll show them!" passive-aggressive vengeance mode.

There is the "No one really knows what I'm going through!" distorted thinking mode.

There is the "This is my life, it doesn't really affect anyone else!" base rationalization mode.

All of the above show one constant:

"Firstly, under the head of necessary duty to oneself: He who contemplates suicide should ask himself whether his action can be consistent with the idea of humanity as an end in itself. If he destroys himself in order to escape from painful circumstances, he uses a person merely as a mean to maintain a tolerable condition up to the end of life. But a man is not a thing, that is to say, something which can be used merely as means, but must in all his actions be always considered as an end in himself. I cannot, therefore, dispose in any way of a man in my own person so as to mutilate him, to damage or kill him. (It belongs to ethics proper to define this principle more precisely, so as to avoid all misunderstanding, e.g., as to the amputation of the limbs in order to preserve myself, as to exposing my life to danger with a view to preserve it, etc. This question is therefore omitted here.)"

Your can't legitimately want not to exist.

In all but medical cases, suicide is plausible only to the mind deluded by brainwashing, usually as a result of religious ritual, Christianity and Islam in particular.

Life has a lot less meaning and much easier to disposition if you have strong faith in
getting a next one. The lives of others also have less meaning regardless, making murder and suicide bombings a matter of course for victims of religious training.

I speak from personal experience of the dark cells of the Christian church.

Columbus
The Messenger

I agree Chissler, the victims of suicide are the friends and family left living. I've always felt it was a cowards way out of problems. Never had any attempts in my life until I was at the end of my rope and stumbled onto the UC message board.
There I naively sought sympathy for the rape and subsequent persecution I'd survived and susi t learn told me to kill myself. The section of the John Nash thread in which she said it has been deleted, it was Jan 24, 2005. I was spiralling downwards and lost my head when I saw her post. I was hurt because I'd liked her posts. I tried to write what happened to the BA, but by that time - my head was spinning and I'd lost the ability to form complete sentences, also for the first time in my life. So I sent incoherent email and was banned. I know it's stupid now, but I was so sick and so hurt - and that's how the UC board treated my vulnerability - with suggestions of suicide and a banning.

I think everyone should keep in mind your dealing with real people with feelings on a message board and not a machine. I'm not a garden flower, but kicking someone when their down is unnecessary. I think some people get pleasure from it, it makes them feel strong. I know better than to ever expect an apology - but I also know what the good think of it.

There's only two kinds of people in the world, those who lift you up and those who put you down. I think suicide is not the result of healthy or self-directed thinking, we ought not to judge people who find themselves in that pitiable position.

That is unfortunate what happened to you clearwater. As I stated in the opening post, several times, that this is a very sensitive subject for people. I am pleased to see how things have gone so far, and that people have remained respectful to the rights of other members. Were here for a discussion, but we really need to watch the toes we may step on. Its like dealing with rape in my opinion, certain things can be construed in a negative way and I would hate to think a thread that I created was a contributing factor to an emotional breakdown of a member.

It is a sensitive issue and message boards are really not appropriate places for people who are fragile. I think there is a hypnotic effect to the computer screen that is similar to the one on slot machines in casinos. That's probably contributing to the addictiveness of internet pornography. I was one of those Who fan's who nodded at computers on my way out the door. Message boards are like school-yards. Everyone knows what that means.

It only crushed me because I'd been a fan for years, when the myriad of circumstances conspired to test me at my weakest point, I somehow survived it. I don't blame anyone, not the childhood, not the rape - it's just increased my detachment, why take life personally anyway. I'm still sore over the injustice. The injustice of having it implied I should be dead and then banned. That sucked. She said it not because I had been antagonistic, it was because I had sounded out of place. Everyone knows how misfits fare in schoolyards. People should be warned - Message Boards are gambling with people's lives. When the master said you're only as strong as your weakest link, I don't think he meant you should dispose of them.


C'est la vie.



[edit on 21-10-2006 by clearwater]

Clook. To the person contemplating suicide the thinking is always logical, maybe not a logic that you or I understand, but a logic just the same.

Personally, I can't imagine being in so much pain that I would try to end it by taking my life. Though I can't say what'll happen tommorrow, I just can't invision it. I guess my attitude is, or tries to be: "Where there is life, there is hope." and with that hope comes a better tommorrow. A platitude maybe, and in the face of major depression perhaps not all that useful...

This is really a tough topic after just getting home from work.

Originally posted by seagull
To the person contemplating suicide the thinking is always logical, maybe not a logic that you or I understand, but a logic just the same.

Personally, I can't imagine being in so much pain that I would try to end it by taking my life.

Wow ......... someone that has not experienced this pain, but see's that it is logical for the one that is experiencing it.

Yer alright !!!!!



You'll have to excuse my momentary outburst of gratitude, but I thrive on logic (in fact, due to my medical scenario, it is one of the rare faculties I have left), so your comments hit me personally, pertaining to this thread.

Misfit

[edit on 21-10-2006 by kokoro]

Originally posted by clook

The psychiatrist was not conducting his practice from a back alley. His colleagues consider him to be one of the best in his field. Yet with full knowledge of her family history, he prescribed an antidepressant along with both short and long term acting antianxiety medications. Part of the family history profile included addictions and previous suicide attempts from years ago. In my humble opinion, and also documented in the American Psychiatric Association's practice guideline for the assessment and treatment of patients with suicidal behaviors, prescriptions for Xanax, over a period of approx. 18 months, would have been the last type of drug you would prescribe.

I am so sorry for your loss. We are having the same type problem with my mothers psychiatrist right now. She is on an antidepressant and is perscribed 8 xanax a day 8!!! just last week she agreed to go to the hospital for a short term stay because her symptoms had gotten so bad. She was thinking of suicide. She sayed a total of 3 hours before checking herself out. She told the staff that she was no longer suicidal and I was told they could not legally keep her against her will at that point. She is being slowly weaned off xanax but its gonna be a long road. But I hope... I do not want her to kill herself but I worry every minute of the day.


[edit on 21-10-2006 by kokoro]