James Baker: 'helluva mess'

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Iraq a 'helluva mess': former US secretary of state
AFP
Tue Oct 17, 2006
LONDON - Former US secretary of state James Baker was visibly shocked when he last visited Iraq, and said the country was in a "helluva mess", the BBC reported.

Baker is leading a review of the situation in Iraq by a bipartisan US committee of experts, and is expected to recommend a change in US strategy for rebuilding Iraq.

Citing a unnamed close friend and ally of Baker's, himself a top politician, the BBC said that Baker added that "there simply weren't any easy solutions".

So,exactly how bad is it? I have heard so many conflictiong stories and opinions about that whole Iraq debacle that I don't know what to believe.

Iraq

[edit on 18-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 18-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 18-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

I recently watched a documentary called 'Iraq for Sale'. U.S. Civilians out there who
go to make a difference and actually help the iraqi people rebuild, are not being provided with weapons, security or maps.

They had one story about 3 truck drivers who wanted to 'make a difference' and went to Iraq. They weren't given any directions, maps, or protection. They just had to follow one truck to their destination... anyways, they came under attack and several died, some burning to death and yelling 'I don't want to die in Iraq' to the radio.

The companies that 'provide' these services have made so much money. As long as they can show they provided the 'service', who cares about the result? I feel very bad for the people who are dying there for no reason... they wanted to help, but they only helped put more money into politician's pockets...

Check out this link about defence contractors profits:
U.S. Defence Contractor Profits

Well,sure,quintar. I remember seeing a video,can't remember what company it was, but it showed Bush doing a speech for a company that produces tanks. Anyway, in the video, when Bush stated that the reason he invaded, that was as far as he got, the whole building erupted in applause. These corporations do not care about human life. All they care about is the almighty dollar.

James Baker...a man with many missions !

check out this news feature; www.raidersnewsnetwork.com...

Where he (James Baker) is talking about redefining the WOT mission in Iraq
(but that report is to be released after the midterm election count is tallied)

James Baker, also has some insights into 'Globalization', and how the corporate USA is mis-playing the strategy which would make 'globalization' a benefit for the whole world....instead of just the powerful nations & corps. able to advance their own goals instead of the common good.

i just can't recover that globalization link, or that article at the moment, but it does exist somewhere

Speaker,

If you were in charge, what would you do first to try and remedy this situation?

I know if I was 'The Man', I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to start... well, I mean do you pull out the troops right away? Then what happens? Civil War?

This might be off topic, but I heard that the US has this super IBM computer that is a simulated earth... it's configured as close to the real earth as possible, with populations, borders, environment... I wonder if the US can or did in fact 'simulate' these past events..

I would have to agree with him.
Its not so much the US fault that is has gone the way it has,
It was simply just to big a task to believe it would fall into place.
Two super powers have tried, unsuccesfully in the past 3 decades to invade, occupy and setup shop in a muslim country.

both have failed.

The Russians pulled out, fearing and end to there economy, they did the only thing left for them to do, and look where they are now.
They have rebuilt there empire and are starting to play a major role again.

President bush doesnt mind if the US economy falters , because himself, his family and his rich corporate elite are getting richer and richer as time goes by.

The only way to fix the mess we've created, is to find a logcal way to control the entire population of Iraq.
Its that simply, so long as they have freedom to move about the city, they have the ability to attack US, and attack there rival factions.

They will attack there rival factions becuase of decades of infighting,
They will attack US because of the last decade of sanctions, and the last 3 years of senseless MURDER.

There isnt an answer as to how to stop this any more, there never really was.

It was a monumental mistake in removing the only government that had the POWER to contain this region....

and the 3000 troops dead, isnt even the tip of the iceburg in terms of consequences.

We cant pull out, we cant stay, we cant stop the violence and sure as hell the US isnt going to put back the only man who had the ability to control it.

So President bush, vice president Dick chenney, Rummsfield and wolfowitz...
Do you enjoy sleeping in your beds, on those silk sheets? in those big houses?

While your laying there, I hope your figuring out exactly HOW.. your going to save your country, because sure as hell your the only ones with the ability to implement a solution.

you do have a backup plan... dont you?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Iraq a 'helluva mess': former US secretary of state

"Iraq a helluva mess" actually means "Iraq mess" is going right according to plans... for everybody that cant read between the lines i just thought i would help you out

Originally posted by quintar
Speaker,

If you were in charge, what would you do first to try and remedy this situation?

Good question. To be honest, much of the criticism of the Bush administration is undue because in some respects, I don't see what he could have done differently.

With that being said, I will try and address what I would do at this point.

Any pull out at this point would signify weakness to the rest of the world. We can't,if we are to maintain our "super power" status, pull our troops out right now. I think that the only reasonible thing to do is give it another year. Allow the Iraqi governemnt a bit more time to get its footing underneath it. Then, about mid-September or late -October of next year, begin pulling troops out.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Any pull out at this point would signify weakness to the rest of the world. We can't,if we are to maintain our "super power" status, pull our troops out right now. I think that the only reasonible thing to do is give it another year. Allow the Iraqi governemnt a bit more time to get its footing underneath it. Then, about mid-September or late -October of next year, begin pulling troops out.

Great plan, but about as effective as "giving another mile" to your empty gas tank. The only thing another year in Iraq is going to produce is more casualties. "Signify weakness to the rest of the world"? We can do that now, or we can do that a year from now, or 5 years from now. We'll be criticized for not finishing what we started no matter when we pull out, for one simple reason: We cant finish what we started. While the International community will definitely view us differently, that's not to say the vew isn't accurate. It was safer for an Iraqi to walk down the street before we got there.

What could Bush have done differently? How about not invading in the first place.

Civil war? War (civil or not) in the middle east is like the sunrise. It was happening long before we got there, and it'll happen long after we're gone. Even before we went in, Iraq lived on the brink of civil war. Hell, a civil war should have been part of the original plan, as it was obvious even then that it would happen, and would not be preventable.

The Iraqi people are tough to govern. They can't, and won't be able to, govern themselves, and we sure as hell can't govern them. Only one man was capable of keeping a lid on the place.

Only one man was capable of keeping a lid on the place.

And who was that,Unit? Not anyone in my 29 years has been able to do it!! The whole Middle East has been a mess during my entire lifetime. Certainly you are not implying that Hussein did the Iraqi people any favors. If that is what you are implying, you're living on a different planet somewhere. I mean, not to be crude, but that's just how I view it.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
And who was that,Unit? Not anyone in my 29 years has been able to do it!! The whole Middle East has been a mess during my entire lifetime. Certainly you are not implying that Hussein did the Iraqi people any favors. If that is what you are implying, you're living on a different planet somewhere. I mean, not to be crude, but that's just how I view it.

I certainly do not imply that Saddam did the Iraqi people any favors (so to speak), although that could be argued. Heavy handed as it may have been, he provided Iraq with order; somethign we have been unable to do since we landed there. The fact of the matter is that Saddam had his people, and his country under control, and under his regime, people feared him. Now, people fear every military aged person in the country, American an Iraqi alike. They're just as worried about being killed by their neighbor as they are of being killed by a coalition soldier.

Originally posted by Unit541


I certainly do not imply that Saddam did the Iraqi people any favors (so to speak), although that could be argued. Heavy handed as it may have been, he provided Iraq with order; somethign we have been unable to do since we landed there. The fact of the matter is that Saddam had his people, and his country under control, and under his regime, people feared him. Now, people fear every military aged person in the country, American an Iraqi alike. They're just as worried about being killed by their neighbor as they are of being killed by a coalition soldier.

Spot on, it takes a hard lined man to control maniacs.
The resulting violence in Iraq shows the level factions are willing to go.
IE
firering a weapin in the air in Iraq was punishable with jail.
If you continued firering it, you were executed.

that put a pretty big lull on any sort of firearm use.
Yet, the americans allow it to happen as they please simply because its there right to bare arms.. ( jee where have I heard that before )

Saddam went over board at times, yes... torturing people was never good.
But what difference is it to what we are doing?
simply because we are sending them to egypt to be tortured for us?
thats pretty weak and gutless... its like breaking the law, then blaming your friend when your questioned.

In my opinion saddam was our only REAL ally in the region.
think about it..

he would of sided with the USA .. AGAIN against IRan..
Iran was the true person in the middle east that was activley against us..
yet, we toppled the man we used to consider a friend against our common enemy?

We stabbed saddam in the back.. big time.
while allowing our common enemy to run free...

saddam kept Iraq in check, he kept Iran at bay.. and put pressure in Israel to make sure they didnt cross the line.

what has happened now we removed saddam?

the Iraqi's arent in check
Iran is not at bay
And Israel seems to be freely crossing the line.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by Agit8dChop]

I read that Baker is considering to “Redeploy and Contain" troops in Iraq. The same thing Democrats suggested. Maybe Bush will listen to Baker. It seems like a pride issue now. Troops are dying because Bush and Republicans don't want to admit they were wrong. Especially with an election coming up. Way to 'support the troops'.