Originally posted by Shadowhawk
Classified aircraft have received anomalous "F" (usually "YF") designations even when the aircraft were not fighter planes (i.e. YF-117D TACIT BLUE). Until recently, these were always three-digit designators (such as YF-117A and YF-113G). In the late 1990s, however, a classified prototype was flown as the YF-24.

Is this limited to the US Air Force? I ask because I can think of several classified planes that didn't or don't have a YF designation:

U-2: CIA Spy Plane
A-12: CIA version of the Blackbird
TR-3 Black Manta
SR-75 ?
XR-7 ?

These are all classified designations that are not "YF". So apperently your statement about classified panes having a YF designation isn't always true.

Tim

The YF designators for classified aircraft were introduced with Project HAVE DOUGHNUT in 1968, quite a few years after the U-2 and A-12 programs were started.

The U-2 was given an innocuous "U for Utility" designation in a misguided attempt to hide its true mission.

A-12 was a Lockheed designation that was never part of thge official MDS designation system. The "A" stood for Archangel, Kelly Johnson's name for the successor to his earlier Angel (U-2).

"TR-3 Black Manta" is an entirely speculative name for an aircraft that may not even exist. If an aircraft with the characteristics of the alleged TR-3 was built, it would almost certainly not have that designator. It would probably have been one of the YF types.

SR-75 and XR-7 are just made-up designators for ridiculously improbable and highly speculative models from Testors Corporation.

HAVE BLUE apparently never had a YF (or other) designator as the only Air Force pilot to fly it did not log his flight hours at the time. He later received flight credit in the form of a letter from Ben Rich of Lockheed. (At least that's the story I have heard from several sources. One of these days I should just ask him myself.)

The SENIOR TREND full-scale development (FSD) prototypes were designated YF-117A. This designation stuck for the production aircraft as F-117A.

TACIT BLUE was listed as YF-117D on the pilots flight logs (A.F. Form 5).

I'm not sure if Bird of Prey had a YF designator. Only one Air Force pilot flew it and I didn't ask him.

Of the remaining seven to eleven known manned "black" aircraft that have yet to be unveiled to the public, only two designators (YF-24 and YF-113G) have been revealed by Air Force officials. (I do not include the numerous YF-110, YF-112, YF-113, etc., designations for foreign aircraft types evaluated by the Air Force and Navy.)

Originally posted by waynos
What about the RAF and their 'Desert Pink' camouflage applied to everything that flew in the Gulf War?

Everyone knows the RAF are the best, most macho real men pilots there are

[edit on 26-10-2005 by waynos]

It is either the RAF or the USN Top Gun Pilots
USN-Becouse of the planes but the pilots are sort of immature.
RAF-Well educated ,professional but there are only a few pilots in Britain these days.

Is there any truth in the 'YF' story? As far as I have always known 'Y' was simply added to the designation of a prototype of any new fighter, hence YF-15, YF-16, YF-17, YF-22 etc.

That's exactly right. "YF" is the prefix for a prototype. "YF" is supposed to be used for a prototype fighter. It should be pretty staright forward. Technically, the YF designations were misused when they were applied to the Soviet aircraft types being tested in the late 1960s.

But, they did use them. They needed an unclassified aircraft designator for use in the flight logs and a tradition was born. YF designations were used for acquired foreign aircraft, classified protoypes and one-off technology demonstrators. I interviewed one of the guys who invented what has been jokingly called "the new Century Series" and others who have used this system. It's all there in the flight logs.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
A-12 was a Lockheed designation that was never part of thge official MDS designation system. The "A" stood for Archangel, Kelly Johnson's name for the successor to his earlier Angel (U-2).

I would have to disagree with you on that! The CIA also referred to the Aircraft at the A-12. In fact, they had it printed on the flight manuals for the single seat version of the Blackbird.

Tim

Yes, the CIA did use Kelly Johnson's A-12 designation. It doesn't change the fact that it was never part of the DoD Mission/Design/Series (MDS) designation system in which the letter "A" stands for "Attack."

If you read Johnson's personal logs (or any decent history of the Lockheed Skunk Works) you will find the origin of the Archangel name and his designs for the new recon aircraft (designated by him as A-1 through A-12).

Because of the secret origins of the Blackbird family and the way the program was managed (with convoluted relationships between Lockheed, CIA, and the Air Force) much was done outside the normal procedural channels. Aircraft designations were abnormal and changed often during the course of the program.

The AF-12 was originally intentionally misidentified as the A-11 when the program was surfaced, but became the YF-12A to conform to the MDS system. The Q-12 became the D-21 and the M-12 became the M-21. The R-12 became the RS-71 and then the SR-71. It's enough to drive a historian mad.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
Yes, the CIA did use Kelly Johnson's A-12 designation. It doesn't change the fact that it was never part of the DoD Mission/Design/Series (MDS) designation system in which the letter "A" stands for "Attack."

If you read Johnson's personal logs (or any decent history of the Lockheed Skunk Works) you will find the origin of the Archangel name and his designs for the new recon aircraft (designated by him as A-1 through A-12).

I'm very aware of that! All I was doing, is pointing out that it happened. It wasn't a standard designation, but it was used.

Tim

The AF-12 was originally intentionally misidentified as the A-11 when the program was surfaced, but became the YF-12A to conform to the MDS system. The Q-12 became the D-21 and the M-12 became the M-21. The R-12 became the RS-71 and then the SR-71. It's enough to drive a historian mad.

To complete this, D-21 stands for Daughter and M-21 means Mother. It is not standard USAF designation

What if the F-19 really is a Northrop Project and had nothing to do with Lockheed? Think about it, if they had two simular projects but for slightly different missions going at the same time. Maybe small peices of each leaked out and we put the info together wrong. If my estiments are correct, the F-19 and the F-117 might be close to the same age. If the F-19 is still classified, they might have used the F-117 to cover it!

Maybe it''s time to do some research!

Tim

I wrote many times that F-19 is only aviation fans made mystery, but lets play this game....

Interesting idea but I found some difficulties. Firstly - is it good to cover top secret plane by another top secret plane? When you said that they should be the same era, it means, that both F-117 and F-19 needed to have independent cover. And because people usually do not know nothing about really top secret planes before they went public, how can be one secret plane covered by another?

Secondly - last time I collected much of information from Northrop including Senior Citizen SOV, ATA proposal, Switchblade proposal and many more. There is absolutely nothing about any F-19 or similar plane.

Thirdly - think about purpose of this plane. If it really exist, do USAF need it? For what missions?

There is no reason that the F-19 designation couldn't be used for a classified aircraft, just as YF-24 has been used. Two-digit YF designators for "black" planes seem to be a recent (1990s) phenomenon, so any F-19 would most likely post-date the YF-117A by at least 10 years. I have no reason to assume that F-19 has yet been used, but there a quite a few classified aircracraft unaccounted for. Three-digit YF-designators were being used at leastr until the early 1990s (example: YF-113G).

Originally posted by ghost
What if the F-19 really is a Northrop Project and had nothing to do with Lockheed? Think about it, if they had two simular projects but for slightly different missions going at the same time. Maybe small peices of each leaked out and we put the info together wrong. If my estiments are correct, the F-19 and the F-117 might be close to the same age. If the F-19 is still classified, they might have used the F-117 to cover it!

Maybe it''s time to do some research!

Tim

Its probably fake like but i heard from the video game it has a vulcan gun and it can land on carriers!!!!!!!!!! well that was the so called lockheed F-19 that starred in it.

BUT if you want to discuss about the Northrop F-19A Specter(The Real Mccoy) go to the other F-19A discussion board, it is specially dedicated to this particular one becouse it is well more likley to exist.

ALSO check the images at the top of this board.

The only official use of the F-19 designation I have yet found is from an unclassified paper by R. Hartman in "Military Electronics/Countermeasures", vol. 3, July 1977. It is listed in a NASA database as Document ID: 19770060541 A (77A43393), File Series: Open Literature. Contact: help@sti.nasa.gov

The abstract reads as follows:
"Electronic warfare (EW) hardware organization in the projected XF-19 U.S. STOL fighter-bomber is described and characterized. The XF-19 is designed for forward area tactical interception of hostile aircraft and missiles, or for tactical close air support, with capability of operating from unimproved/minimal/damaged runways, or small ships. The phased array IR warning system, rack-mounted placement of EW modules, responses to hostile threats, detect/preamp/presort equipment, jamming and smart chaff dispensing, and anti-track laser systems are outlined. Limitations imposed by aircraft blind spots, volume and weight penalties, and difficulties in transferring signal information and commands to the jammer."

Note that it refers to the "projected XF-19" so it was not necessarily an official designation, but merely a logical leap to the next number in sequence. It wouldn't be the first time. The Crew Return Vehicle (CRV) technology demonstrator was described as the X-35 in early program documents, but it ended up as the X-38 when the X-35 designation was assigned to the Lockheed Martin JSF entry. Ironically, when LM rolled out its early JSF mock-up, it was called the X-32, a number that was later assigned to the competing Beoing JSF entry.

Originally posted by matej
I wrote many times that F-19 is only aviation fans made mystery, but lets play this game....

Interesting idea but I found some difficulties. Firstly - is it good to cover top secret plane by another top secret plane? When you said that they should be the same era, it means, that both F-117 and F-19 needed to have independent cover. And because people usually do not know nothing about really top secret planes before they went public, how can be one secret plane covered by another?

I meant that once the F-117 was reveiled, it BECAME the cover for the F-19.
They brought out the F-117 and told the world that it was the Stealth Fighter, and that there had never been an F-19. Part of the reason they revieled the F-117 was to make the F-19 disappear!

Secondly - last time I collected much of information from Northrop including Senior Citizen SOV, ATA proposal, Switchblade proposal and many more. There is absolutely nothing about any F-19 or similar plane.

Thirdly - think about purpose of this plane. If it really exist, do USAF need it? For what missions?

Two Words: Black Project! Do you know everything they are working on?

If it exists, It might be a spy plane of some kind. They often misdesignate things to hide the truth! Two good examples of planes where the designation doesn't fit the mission are: U-2, U stands for utility, but this is a spyplane, and the F-117. F stands for fighter, but the Nighthawk is an attack aircraft.

Second, who said the Air Force was flying the F-19? If it is a spy plane, maybe the CIA is involved. If the Air Force is involved, it might even be a joint use program involving both, like the Blackbird was.

No offense, but you need to learn to think like a spook(spy). The CIA is the biggest gathering of spooks in the US. If you wanted to hide something, wuold you leave a paper trail with your contractors? Northrop is the second largest Areospace contrator in the US. However, latly Lockheed has gotten most of the known contracts. Desite this fact, Northrop Grumman's stock pays out a higher dividend (HINT: read the NASDAQ stocks page of your local paper (If you're in the US)) Where is Northrop getting it's money?

I'm no expert on stocks, and I'm not perfect, but I know when the numbers don't add up!

Tim