Blown out of Proportion?

I agree!!!

We have achieved perfection.

ATS is great! Its people are great! Smart! titilating!

We are family...... Sing it with me!!!!




[edit on 18-10-2006 by dgtempe]

You know what DG??

You and I are the perfect example of ATS..

We are diametrically opposing opinionated members that debate and respect at the same time...

WE ARE ATS...

Semper

[edit on 10/18/2006 by semperfortis]

I agree.

I debate and love everyone. Most of my friends here are right winged Republicans, and i love them!!!!!

And I love you!!!!!


(I dont know why i have that signature on my post!! I didnt put it there!!!)
OOOps good, its gone.

[edit on 18-10-2006 by dgtempe]

It took me a long time to acclimatize to ATS. I still have work to do in that regard. I've never gotten involved with other boards of this type until I found this one. Even with the occasional outburst, by me as well, its still a pretty amazing place. I've even threatened to not come back a couple of times when I got a little to pissed off. Now that I'm learning to argue Internet style I'm liking it even better.

If there is anything that is changing in my short time here it is the shear number of posts on the same topics. I don't really see anything wrong with that. Its forcing me to look at other topics I might not have bothered with. Some have been quite interesting.

The heated arguments are quite therapeutic. Not to mention, I have a boring job and this makes my days go much faster and they are far more interesting. My employees probably like it too as it keeps my attention away from them.

Chissler, I agree with your premise, to a point. Where I disagree is that not all members have had your positive experiences on ATS. And I'm not only talking about member responses to you.

Of course, your positive experiences are a direct result of your posting style. But not everyone has that level of reason or maturity. Maybe other members go on the defensive because they feel that they are not being treated fairly. Maybe we could all bring the grease the next time we pile on.

As far as the Complain function, this is printed at the bottom of the edit box:

Members are encouraged to provide frank and honest feedback to forum staff. However, please be realistic, juvenile rantings about "nazis" staff will be ignored. Please help us build a better ATS by giving us your honest feelings, along with suggestions for change. Your complaints and suggestions will be posted and we will review your concerns. If you would like a response, you must include your member name in your complaint! Complaints that result in a solution will be posted in a public thread, along with our solution.

Emphasis added.

A new member might think, "OK, even if they disagree with my complaint, at least they'll tell me why". And this could lead to better understanding of the way the board works.

But how many people actually ever get a response? And do you see how that could be frustrating to a member? H/she doesn't know if the complaint never got through because of some glitch, or if h/she is just being ignored. Maybe his complaint isn't important enough. So, maybe the behavior he was complaining about is acceptable on ATS. So, he responds in kind to the member that pissed him off..

BAM! He gets warned. WTF?

Do you see how this could be confusing?

Originally posted by jsobecky
But how many people actually ever get a response? And do you see how that could be frustrating to a member? Do you see how this could be confusing?

ABSOLUTELY JSO. Very good point. The process is slow and/or there is no reponse back so the person who has been wronged takes matters into his/her own hands because they think they have been ignored.

I have 'hit the button' a few times. I haven't always gotten a response back, but then again, I can't remember if I ever signed my name either. I thought that it automatically came up on 'the other side' of the button and everyone in mod-land would know who sent the complaint. I guess i was wrong. I'll have to remember to sign it next time. (Hope there is NO next time!)

Edited to add - I didn't mean 'slow' as a slam .. I know the mods are unpaid volunteers.


[edit on 10/19/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Where I disagree is that not all members have had your positive experiences on ATS. And I'm not only talking about member responses to you.

I believe ATS is what we make of it. For myself, most times ATS is a positive place and rarely am I found bickering with a member. A lot of my heated discussions are with members I have come to know and respect, and these discussions only further that. If I'm not familiar with the member, normally by the end of it we have become friends. Now if the member is not willing to remain respectful, and wants to make it a personal issue, most times I will just walk away from the thread and allow other members to debate the issue. It's just not worth it. Every thread is not changing the world, sometimes its just easier to walk away than attempt to change someone.

Jso, My intent is not to take a narrow minded approach and deny the existence of the negative here. By creating this topic, it had been opened for discussion. I thought it would of been better for me to speak from my experience, and then allow other members to offer their opinions and experiences. If my thread is stating how I disagree with the other side, it wouldn't do much if I begin to talk about all of my personal experiences with the negative aspect of it. I would be lying if I said I never had a negative experience with ATS, I just feel the pros seriously outweight the cons.

So again, I wasn't being narrow minded. Just leaving the door open for other members to voice their opinion.

The Complain button can be a tricky one from time to time I believe. Sometimes we do as we should, turn to the button and hope for justice. Maybe it doesn't always come, which can create even more frustration because we turned our backs on the issue hoping a Mod would step in.

For every 10 times I used the function, I would say 8 times I recieved a quick reply and was satisfied with the outcome. We need to understand that at the time of the submission, there may be a serious lack of staff members logged on at the minute. That would create a major problem if were looking for a swift response. And yes, there was a time I used it and twiddled my fingers looking for an answer. I'd sneak a quick look to see how many staff members were on the site, and there were a few. Twiddle for another minute or two and still nothing. Then we debate whether or not to go back to the thread and take care of business ourselves.

So yeah it happens, but I am satisfied with the success rate of it. As Jso states, they are unpaid volunteers.

...Or are they?



[edit on 19-10-2006 by chissler]

Originally posted by chissler

As Jso states, they are unpaid volunteers.

...Or are they?

Yes.

Why do these members give their time and effort?

To me every action taken by a member of staff is a thank you to everyone that helps make ATS such a wonderful community.

Jak

from chissler
Jso, My intent is not to take a narrow minded approach and deny the existence of the negative here. By creating this topic, it had been opened for discussion.

Oh, please don't misunderstand... I never meant to imply that at all. And as I stated, it's your attitude and style that encourages civil responses. I was just pointing out that following the prescribed methods may not bring the anticipated results for all people. I thought that a more realistic notation in the Complan dialogue box might be something like "We make every attempt to respond to individual requests for one. However, workload and other factors may not always permit this. We try our best".

That's all.

Edit to add:

So yeah it happens, but I am satisfied with the success rate of it. As Jso states, they are unpaid volunteers.

...Or are they?

I heard they are all paid millions. Except for the 3Amigos, who are paid billions.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by jsobecky]

DgTempe's evil twin says:

Sometimes, i have complained and rarely do i ever get a response.

I have also suggested some things, and i have gone by ignored.

I do think there should be a little more effort in replying, even if the mods are not in agreement of the suggestion.

*Gimme back my keyboard*!!!

I know its all volunteer and they do the best they can here.

Vigilant Or Vigilante?

Originally posted by jsobecky
So, he responds in kind to the member that pissed him off..

BAM! He gets warned. WTF?

Do you see how this could be confusing?

Perhaps, but the confusion would come from the mistaken presumption that being pissed off gives a member the right to violate the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

It doesn't.

We often get complaints from members that, upon investigation, show that the complaining member is even worse of a problem than the subject of the complaint.

Submitting a complaint does not grant immunity from the restrictions of the T&C, and if your response to T&C violations is to commit them yourself, you're part of the problem.

"He started it!" is not a valid defense for misconduct. :shk:

Rather, the right thing to do is honor the T&C as promised, avoid compounding problems when they are encountered and leave the moderating to the moderators.

Majic if I may,

When a Police Officer goes to a fight at, say a bar. Frequently BOTH parties involved in the altercation are arrested. WHY? Because they BOTH contributed to the fight.

If Joe slaps you in the face and says, "Let's go outside," and you do, and you fight Joe, then you are as guilty as he is.
If Joe slaps you and you call the police, only Joe gets arrested because you are then a victim.

Like the T&C, the Law says you can defend yourself, but ONLY WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE LAW, or the T&C as it were.

Anything more and you stop being a victim and become an ANTAGONIST.

You can not get up, go outside, contribute to the fight, then lose and cry victim. Doesn't work that way.

Remember, TWO Wrongs NEVER make a Right. Ever..

Oh Yeah, I've been as guilty as anyone in this regard I'm sorry to say.

Semper

Unholier-Than-Thou

Originally posted by semperfortis
Remember, TWO Wrongs NEVER make a Right. Ever..

Oh Yeah, I've been as guilty as anyone in this regard I'm sorry to say.

Well hey, me too.

Anyone who knows me from the "old days" (and by "old days" I mean "today and all days prior") knows what a total jerk I can be. In fact, probably one of the most accurate titles used to describe me when I get into that "special mood" is "pompous ass drama queen".

And indeed, I can't deny it.

I'm also no stranger to sanctimony and hypocrisy, and exhibit both on a habitual basis. They don't even slow me down.

Thus I can do my job as a moderator without hesitation, because enforcing the T&C doesn't require me to be free of sin, just fair and reasonable.

While that can be a challenge for me as well, at least I try, and when I screw up, I'm willing to listen and try to get better.

As a moderator, I consider that mandatory, but I'm also finding it's a good policy to adhere to as a member.

I really do believe that every member deserves respect, and if we all were believe that, I think ATS would be paradise on earth.

Frankly, however, I think things are pretty sweet as it is -- though there's always plenty of room for improvement.

Just as there should be.

"Majic said a curse word"
"Majic said a curse word"

I'm tellin....

Seriously though. Your right. Just go to some of the other sites and soon discover that the ATS family is the BEST forum board on the internet hands down.

Semper

Reasonable Expectations

I would have to check back to see which member acknowledged this point, but I would like to reinforce it. We all put expectations on one another, some are greater than others. Sometimes we issue expectations that are beyond comprehension. We too need to be reasonable. So next time we find ourselves in a heated battle, and ready to go through the monitor after another member or staff, take a breather and realize you just may be asking or expecting too much.

I thank you all for your comments and opinions. It was good to be reminded that so many of us appreciate things just the way they are.

Keep On, Keepin On!

Chissler,

I want to thank you for a thread basically about common sense.

My biggest problem is having lived a life of violence, I tend toward believing the best defense is a good offense, and when attacked, I defend even when not necessary. In the "real" world it has probably saved me as much as anything.

I have had to "re"learn in my abilities to debate intellectually with the members; threads like this serve as an excellent motivator.

They keep me on track as it were...

Thanks Chiss....

Semper

It's my belief that the best offense is a good defense.

Run your own race, work on the flaws in your own argument before you begin to attack another view. When I feel I have worked out the kinks in my belief, I share it with other members to pick it apart. Then taking into consideration what they have had to say, I rework my beliefs. We never stop learning, keep your eyes and ears open.

I think this thread has served its purpose. Again, thank you all.