Tool making dinosaurs?, page 1
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reply posted on 22-10-2006 @ 03:52 PM by Nygdan
Originally posted by TheSilentProtagonist
Whos to say there didnt exist any dinosaurs capable of a making tools, having rudimentary speech, even art of some kind?

Who's to say that there definitly wasn't something like that? I suppose no one. Who's to say that there actually was such a thing, or anything even close? Apparently no one either.

given the huuuuge variety among the dinosaurs, the fierce competition and the bizzare geography of earth at the time? im imagine there still a myriad of speices of dinosuars we dont have fossils for

The problem is, what advantage would tool making offer, say, a small dinosaur, say tool making on the level of the apes? Whats a small dinosaur going to do with a stick, or even the ability to smack two rocks together to make one sharp, when its being attacked by a sharp clawed and sharp toothed dinosaurian predator?

.....hmm, anyone care to induldge in a bit of wild speculation?

Speculation is allways fun. Some researchers have noticed that the lineage associated with the evolution into birds was showing trends torwards increased brain size, and speculated on what would happen if this was extrapolated over time.
But the problem is, reptile brains are incredibly small to begin with, reaching the intelligence of a primitive bird is an accomplishment, but far from making tools and having languages. And that brain size increase was largely related to the requirements for flight and/or living amoung the trees, not necessarily the same kind of brain material needed for making tools.

OF COURSE, primates ultimately developed tool making abilities, and they started scurrying about tree branches, like the pre-avian dinosaurs, so perhaps something might've happened in the end.

There was actually a thread on this a long time ago, you might find it interesting:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is a page with more information, Dr. Dale Russel is the person that came up with this idea"
home13.inet.tele.dk...
Scroll down to the section headed "Intelligent dinosaurs"


Russell's hypothetical construction.


elaine
www.biconews.com...

It notes that this was actually an april fool's joke. The name 'roger harris' is apparently of a british comedian.


[edit on 22-10-2006 by Nygdan]


reply posted on 23-10-2006 @ 01:07 PM by Cruizer
There is one huge factor against this theory- simply the lack of an opposable thumb in non-primates. 3 clawed digits on a Theropod limb do not qualify. How is it postulated that a dinosaur grasped a "tool"? I suppose that one could have held a tree limb in its mouth and used it to turn over loose rocks. Really? We've never seen canines, dolphins, horses or crocodiles do that. Of course no wood-based impliment could have survived the ages and simple teeth marks would not be conclusive if it did.

What is a tool anyhow? An animal has to weild the tool with the idea of an end result not aimless coincidental motion. A chimpanzee uses a blade of grass as a "tool" in that he sticks it into a termite mound and withdraws it and eats the insects clinging to it. Primates in the great ape category do not make tools either.

Ancient hominids probably used some tools they found handy. But certainly they didn't purposfully put together tool kits as ancient Homo did. Even so Homo Erectus didn't gather a tool kit of assorted sized stones and flints for use in varying ways as Homo Habilis did. We know because the tools were found where they lived and died.

Any rock found adjacent to a dino fossil would have to have specialized wear patterns indicative of repeated use in the same manner. One such stone could be aberent and we'd have to see it recurring in many dino fossil sites to give it creedance. Certainly they didn't gather a tool kit as Homo Habilis did.

The article mentions "what appears to be a stone tool" which completely ambiguous in that absolutely no description is included. It is simply the matter of one person's interpretation again. While we should respect opinions we do not have to agree with them especially with no accompanying evidence.

This is postulation rather than hypothesis.


reply posted on 24-10-2006 @ 04:22 PM by TheSilentProtagonist
Essan, it was actually that book that got me thinking about this subject!

In regard to opposable digits, primates only evolved this becuase of the need to braciate through the forest and grasp tree boughs and branches securley enough for it to be a safe mode of transport. Plus the coordination needed for such movement also requires large brains and forward facing eyes needed to triangulate and coordinate the body and judge distances. The ability to make tools is a useful by-product of combining a well coordinated brain and opposable digits, plus of course a need to make them.
As the old adage goes, "the hand is the teacher and agent of the brain".

Im no palentologist but it seemed that most large-ish dinosuars were optimized to either swim or walk on a flatish terrain. In the brutal competiton of panangea any species that had developed to take refuge in the trees may have had at least some niche in which to thrive, plus having the environmental conditions to develop the requirements to tool making; binocular vision, thumbs etc.

as essan said, even if they got to past the rudimentary mr-termite-meet-mr-stick stage, say being able to build fires and create spears, and were intelligent enough to work as a team, we still would have virtually no evidence today, after 65 million years and a comet.
We have enough trouble today unearthing the meagre remains of say, the nedanderthals, which existed only about 30,000 years ago, and were not vapourized in an apocalyptic asteroid impact as was the case with dinos.


reply posted on 25-10-2006 @ 08:30 AM by FalseParadigm
Originally posted by Cruizer
There is one huge factor against this theory- simply the lack of an opposable thumb in non-primates. 3 clawed digits on a Theropod limb do not qualify. How is it postulated that a dinosaur grasped a "tool"? I suppose that one could have held a tree limb in its mouth and used it to turn over loose rocks. Really? We've never seen canines, dolphins, horses or crocodiles do that. Of course no wood-based impliment could have survived the ages and simple teeth marks would not be conclusive if it did.


I do distinguish the use of tools, with the making of tools, though related they are two separate things.
The use of a rock by some birds to break open eggs is the use of a tool, the building of bowers to lure a mate is making a tool, though rudimentary, and more instinctual, than something learned.. Though males do get better at building bowers as they mature, the basic instinct is already hard wired in.
However, there are birds that make and use tools to gather foods. They will take and modiy thorns to grab grubs out of wood, for example.
That is a learn behaviour, as my memory tells me, though I grant, I could very well remember incorrectly.

Originally posted by Cruizer
What is a tool anyhow? An animal has to weild the tool with the idea of an end result not aimless coincidental motion. A chimpanzee uses a blade of grass as a "tool" in that he sticks it into a termite mound and withdraws it and eats the insects clinging to it. Primates in the great ape category do not make tools either.


You should really read some of Jane Goodalls work. Chimp don't just take a piece of grass, they pick certain types of twigs and grass, and modify it. In fact, they make and modify different types of twigs and grass depending on the bug they are going for.
Not only that, but they are known to make use of external objects when making threat displays. One chimp was infamous for dragging around water jugs, incase he needed to make a point while not in the camp.
They also make use of a crude sponge for drinking, chewing leaves to sop water up, rather than lean over into water.
This is rundematary tool building and use, and it is a learned behavior, not instinct.

Originally posted by Cruizer
Ancient hominids probably used some tools they found handy. But certainly they didn't purposfully put together tool kits as ancient Homo did. Even so Homo Erectus didn't gather a tool kit of assorted sized stones and flints for use in varying ways as Homo Habilis did. We know because the tools were found where they lived and died.


Actually they have found that indeed they did have a tool kit of sorts, as archeologists have found tools that were made of non idigenous rocks to the area they were found in.
In other words, they had to be carried in.
Also, they used different tools for different things, skin scrapping, knacking flints, cutting sticks for arrows, and spears.
To assume that the ancients did not have a "tool kit" would most likely to be incoorect.
If they knew enough to use tools, certainly they recognized the difficulty of creating them, and would in all likelyhood have several tools handy incase of loss or breakage, even if they had to tuck their favorite clam cracker under an armpit.
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