Congress are going to pass a bill today, that will change your world

Originally posted by Vitchilo
darkbluesky: Do you know the american foreign policies history? Who they funded? Who they killed? Who they armed?

When you know this, you know that the government don't have the population's interest at heart, so you don't support anything that gives more power to the same government who built secret prisons in Europe, founded the Mujahdeen, armed Saddam, putted dictatorship in Iran, supported Kadafi, funded the contras and are now supporting the North Alliance in Afghanistan, a regime worst than the Talibans.

You don't support anything that gives them the power to spread dictatorship, unless you're a blind neo-con.

[edit on 18-10-2006 by Vitchilo]

You're exposed Vitch,

We were having a good exchange of ideas and opinions, and then you digress to name calling.

I'm finished wid' you.

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, but I haven't commented yet, because I didn't have anything to add. I'm really not sure what the bill says, to be perfectly honest. I'm not a lawyer. That said, from the little I've been able to translate, the timing (before elections) and the motivation... suspicious. I'm with Astygia: why the retroactive immunity? Just the fact that it's in there implies that they know they did something wrong.

Originally posted by darkbluesky
The govt has many layers, plans, and strategies, but killing its own citizens indiscrimanantly is not one of them IMHO.

I'm sure you just said this in the heat of debate, considering the rest of your comments seem thoughtful and well-researched. Just in case, though, here are some examples: MKULTRA and The Tuskegee Syphillis Study. There were mitigating cirumstances, of course. In the case of MKULTRA, the only guy we know of was one of the doctors involved in the experiment. So, he may or may not count. Tuskegee took place before they really codified medical ethics laws, like getting consent. Lots of people died in that one, though.

This isn't off-topic. I'm trying to make the point that our government has a history of killing its own citizens for nefarious purposes.

Originally posted by Vitchilo

You don't support anything that gives them the power to spread dictatorship, unless you're a blind neo-con.

Hey darkblue, dont take what Vitchilo said as an insult. He said unless you are a neo-con. I think it was said out of frustration. I think you are way beyond the left right thing. You are a good person and good people have a hard time making that leap that people could do something like 9/11 to its own people.

I dont blame you, and I am sure Vitchilo doesnt either. Keep up the exchange its refreshing to hear from a critical thinker before the leap is made. I was the same way long ago...

Darkbluesky, I didn't intend to treat you as a neo-con... sorry if you misinterpreted this, i'm not that good at english grammar, so I could have said something I didn't want to, that's why I said unless. But I didn't want to be agressive towards you.

Anyway, I think that if they want to use this law and to instaure a dictatorship, they'll do a night of the long knives, killing or jailing all politicals opponents all over the country in one night, like Hitler did in 1934.

4 more years of bush is fine with me...economy is great stock markets great...people complain that they have wire taps...if they wanna listen in on my phone calls tahts fine...if they want to listen to me talk to my girlfreind and talk football with my freinds i really dont care...im not doing anything wrong and if your not doing anything wrong i dont see what the big deal is...IMO we are not civilized enough of a society to not have someone looking over our shoulder...our society is failing and if you cant see that then theres a good chance you are part of the failure

economy is great stock markets great: HAHAHAHA. The most funny thing I red today. That's right the economy is doing fine. You'll have a very bad wake up call in the next 6 months, maybe earlier.

Originally posted by BlueSkyes
4 more years of bush is fine with me...economy is great stock markets great...people complain that they have wire taps...if they wanna listen in on my phone calls tahts fine...if they want to listen to me talk to my girlfreind and talk football with my freinds i really dont care...im not doing anything wrong and if your not doing anything wrong i dont see what the big deal is...IMO we are not civilized enough of a society to not have someone looking over our shoulder...our society is failing and if you cant see that then theres a good chance you are part of the failure

I can always hope you're joking, but I don't believe you are.

Four more years of Bush...? I take from this you either have no idea how the presidential system works, or you would like to see Bush suspend whatever exeutive limitations are left to remain in power?

Economy's great? I challenge you to not only research how many jobs have been created, but how many of them pay more than minumum wage, or at least break the poverty level. You'll be surprised at what you find.

And if you don't mind being spied on, then my hat's off to you for obviously being a law-abiding citizen since you've got nothing to worry about. However, the fashion in which your conversations can be used against you is limited only to the imagination of the listener. Not all feds are honorable, this is a fact. If it's crunch time and a bust is needed NOW, this and other recent laws allow you to be jailed for no reason, and the evidence used to convict you needs not be presented, only someone's word.

Now, if you believe that those of us who don't want the big brother syndrome are part of the problem...you're right, if the problem is how best to replace the constitution with a corporate training manual.

no i wasnt joking about 4 more years of bush becuase i think theres a lot of backdoor politics that go on that have little or nothing to do with the president and thats a whole different discussion for an entirelly different threqad...i would also like to challenge you too bring me evidence that wiretaps has lead too a law obiding citizen like myself being arrested and please dont say oh you dont hear about it they just come and get you...if you are not doing anything you shouldnt be doing then you have nothing to worry about...i just think a lot of libs get up in arms over things they shouldnt but a lot of it IMO is due to maturity

Originally posted by BlueSkyes
no i wasnt joking about 4 more years of bush becuase i think theres a lot of backdoor politics that go on that have little or nothing to do with the president and thats a whole different discussion for an entirelly different threqad...i would also like to challenge you too bring me evidence that wiretaps has lead too a law obiding citizen like myself being arrested and please dont say oh you dont hear about it they just come and get you...if you are not doing anything you shouldnt be doing then you have nothing to worry about...i just think a lot of libs get up in arms over things they shouldnt but a lot of it IMO is due to maturity

4 more years of bush isnt what im worried about.
He is mere a poster boy, the one the world see's, and pins the blame on.
Its the people behind the close doors, the ones that have been around since his DADS legacy that will remain in the whitehouse after 2008, when the next 'patsy' in line wins.

Originally posted by BlueSkyes
no i wasnt joking about 4 more years of bush becuase i think theres a lot of backdoor politics that go on that have little or nothing to do with the president and thats a whole different discussion for an entirelly different threqad...

No offense, but that makes no sense whatsoever.

i would also like to challenge you too bring me evidence that wiretaps has lead too a law obiding citizen like myself being arrested and please dont say oh you dont hear about it they just come and get you...if you are not doing anything you shouldnt be doing then you have nothing to worry about...

See, that's the beauty of the program. "Evidence", under the Patriot Act and now under HR6166, no longer needs to be presented (which I said already).

Did I say you don't hear about they just come get you? Nope. But the potential for my freedoms to be uninfringed are supposed to be guaranteed by the constitution, not the goodwill of a nameless fed.

just think a lot of libs get up in arms over things they shouldnt but a lot of it IMO is due to maturity

Heh, who said I was a lib? I voted for Bush twice, since then I've recognized the entire political system to be pretty much crap. But "due to maturity"..? Please explain how any one person's maturity level changes the fact that our constitution is being nixed.

Again, I challenge you to research your claims and not parrot the latest network newsline. Did you even take a look at employment statistics before replying to my previous post? Sounds like you're just using the usual buzzwords in attempt to brush off real issues, which troubles me because this affects us all.

darkbluesky

After reading your answer to my question, I will disagree; yes we most fight terrorism but not while infringing in the citizens of our nation rights to do it.

Terrorism is an ideology that now by our government choice of laws is limited to certain group and laws are made for that intention.

But terrorism can be the definition of many things and tagging a terrorist is in the eye of the beholder and still the new bills and laws will be applied accordingly.

I see a big damage to our constitution and a big damage to the rights of we the people .

In our nation it was mean for we the people rule over the government the government was never mean to rule over we the people without the people approval.

And that is what is happening now under the hoax of fighting the ideology of terrorism.

Do you believe in the power of the people as by our constitution?

Or we should ignore that to allow the government absolute powers .

Because if you do then I believe that when that happens in a nation or country is the clear road to dictatorship.

Or our present government in power has a hidden agenda or in the pursue of the self proclaim war powers in fighting the hoax of the terrorism ideology is opening the most dangerous door to a future of totalitarian rule.

My father a veteran of Korea that lost two brothers to war said is nothing wrong with government, but when government get's too big then people should be worry about government

He fought for this country and lost two brothers for the freedoms of this nation, I rather listen to what he has to say about dangers and I suggest others listen also.

I see now what he means only people that have been around as long as him knows that our nation is heading the wrong path and he is Republican and a very Conservative fundamentalist Christian, I call him bible stumper.



[edit on 19-10-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
darkbluesky

After reading your answer to my question, I will disagree; yes we most fight terrorism but not while infringing in the citizens of our nation rights to do it.

Terrorism is an ideology that now by our government choice of laws is limited to certain group and laws are made for that intention.

But terrorism can be the definition of many things and tagging a terrorist is in the eye of the beholder and still the new bills and laws will be applied accordingly.

I see a big damage to our constitution and a big damage to the rights of we the people .

In our nation it was mean for we the people rule over the government the government was never mean to rule over we the people without the people approval.

And that is what is happening now under the hoax of fighting the ideology of terrorism.

Do you believe in the power of the people as by our constitution?

Or we should ignore that to allow the government absolute powers .

Because if you do then I believe that when that happens in a nation or country is the clear road to dictatorship.

Or our present government in power has a hidden agenda or in the pursue of the self proclaim war powers in fighting the hoax of the terrorism ideology is opening the most dangerous door to a future of totalitarian rule.

My father a veteran of Korea that lost two brothers to war said is nothing wrong with government, but when government get's too big then people should be worry about government

He fought for this country and lost two brothers for the freedoms of this nation, I rather listen to what he has to say about dangers and I suggest others listen also.

I see now what he means only people that have been around as long as him knows that our nation is heading the wrong path and he is Republican and a very Conservative fundamentalist Christian, I call him bible stumper.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by marg6043]

Marg, Well said. I respect your views and opinions. I guess I just have a little more faith that the people of this country will never allow the govt. to perpetrate
any of the more extreme violations of civil and human rights that many are predicting. Liek I've said, I firmly believe our govt is imperfect...its secretive, manipulative, too big, etc. I just don't believe its goals are as nefarious as many here do.

I'm sure this will draw another round of post from those who think I'm blind, or naive, or just another one of the sheeple, so thats why I think I'll find another thread to play in for awhile. I've stated my opinion here too many times already.

It was a good debate, I'll see ya around.



[edit on 10/19/2006 by darkbluesky]

darkbluesky

I am sorry you feel attacked, because after all you do bring some good eye openings.

Even I understand what you mean, and is not healthy for opinions to go only one way all the time, because the whole meaning of debate is lost.

We will see each other in other threads.

darkbluesky

I have also enjoyed the lively debate.....And you are right neither side is going to convince the other so as adults lets agree to disagree.....time will tell who is correct.

For those of you that still care about America and preserving our constitution here is another great commentary by Keith Olbermann about the new law.
www.prisonplanet.com...

Originally posted by BlueSkyes
if you are not doing anything you shouldnt be doing then you have nothing to worry about...i just think a lot of libs get up in arms over things they shouldnt but a lot of it IMO is due to maturity

It is really is hard for me to believe you are serious. If you are then you have not lived long enough, or have not opened your eyes to what the real world is like. Most prosecutors, detectives FBI agents, etc. do not care if you are guilty or not. They only care for their careers. If their is a crime and they do not find the perp. to that crime, and you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, or someone has a vendetta against you, or they are illegally taping your phone and hear the conversation they want to hear, the scenarios can go on to infinity. You will be arrested and they call it clearing the case, not solving it.

I am as an upstanding law abiding citizen as they get. I am a civil servant and work with the police everyday. I have lived long enough and seen enough to know what the prosecutors will do to solve a case when they don’t have the perpetrator to that crime.

Why would you think this is a liberal issue? Do you know what a liberal means? This is an intelligent mature sober look at the world for what it really is issue. You need to not get your info from your friends and television (the real world is nothing like CSI or whatever people are watching now) the real world is hard and cold, and most police by the time they get to a certain time on the force feel everyone except them and the Firefighters they work with (some of them dont trust us either) are guilty of something and deserve what thy get anyway. Prosecutors they just don’t care for anything except their damn careers.

Why do you think the constitution and Bill of rights were written the way they were over 200 years ago? This is ancient knowledge, why do so many people now not know this? It boggles my mind. Is it television that is sapping people’s ability to think? Is there something in the water?


[edit on 19-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

any of the more extreme violations of civil and human rights that many are predicting

Just something, we aren't predicting it, it already happenned in foreign countries funded by the US government or even in some case staffed with US personnel. In Guantanamo, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Vietnam, in Nicaragua, in Pakistan, in Cuba, in Panama, in Chili, in Bolivia, in Lybia, in Iran, in Saudi Arabia, and others. So why would the government be less cruel towards his own citizens? They don't care about human lives, us citizens or not.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Is there something in the water?

Yes, there is, but i doubt it's solely responible for irrational denial and collective hysteria: Flouridated Water

www.abovetopsecret.com...

What's the difference between the secrets being kept by our government now and the secrets that our government kept 60 years ago starting with FDR?

The difference is that we're living it now instead of then.

I'm almost positive that these issues and "freedom killing laws" have been the hot topic of discussions for several decades now and will continue to be so.

I'm not too worried about it because I follow the law so I shouldn't have anything to worry about. And those people that don't care for the rights, well you know what? They're just trying to put bread on the table... expensive bread sprinkled with gold, but they're still trying to do their jobs and keep it, whether they like it or not which they probably do if they're doing it. The world isn't fair, no one lives forever, as long as I still have the right to be a human-being and maintain those basic rights, then I'm fine with them making a living as I know I want to make a living too.

This law to me really won't affect anyone, just stay out of trouble, if you want to be heard than use civil disobediance, don't be a radical as laws like these are supposed to target. There is a fine line between being heard and making yourself a target. Many people cross that line over to the other side and then run to their freedoms for help because they don't know how to keep from impeeding on the freedom of others.

This is the way I feel.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies

This law to me really won't affect anyone, just stay out of trouble,
Shattered OUT...

That is what a mother will tell a child so they don't get tagged at school. But guess what I am not a child.

How do you know if the law makers are making laws to protect themselves from the population to take matters into their hands after learning of their corruption.

Our political system is corrupted, by power, money and greed. Something that is part of human nature.

But taking advantage of laws to protect that corruption is what we should be worry about.

Depending on your age you will understand what it means becoming wiser as you get older and another thing you start seen things for what they are and you start thinking for yourself.