Congress are going to pass a bill today, that will change your world

projects.washingtonpost.com...

The world changes today.
I guess they didnt want to WAIT for the congressional elections.

GW Bush now has the power to DECIDE on who, and WHAT constitutes a threat to the american supremacy.

Authorizes the: (1) President to establish military commissions (commissions) to try alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against the United States for violations of the law of war and other triable offenses; (2) commissions to impose upon any person found guilty any sentence appropriate to the offense, including death or imprisonment for life; and (3) Secretary of Defense to carry out such sentences. Prohibits a combatant under trial from invoking the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights.

Holy friggen cow..

Prohibits the geneva conventions?

Wow Agit8!! That last one is particularly a doozey! I'd say that he places any one of our Military men at risk when/if we ever go to war if the enemy wishes to reciprocate. This is dangerous turf man!!


Pie

This bill is set to pass tonight, the 17th of October.
Somethings definately in the works for this bill to be passed weeks before the elections, days before the end of ramadan.
Ive bee nwatching the news closley, and observing RICE as she's been speaking in regards to nkorea, she gave me the creeps.
She was uneasy, and nervous to be on camera , not in regards to the korean issue, but it felt like she wasnt happy being one of the last officials on camera, front row n centre before something goes down.

For those who still think there will be an election, there might be a mock one, but that's all.
This man will find the way to stay in power, which is exactly why he's coming up with all this. He's not going anywhere.

For those of you who live under the delussion that all will be fine, i got news for you. It wont.

I don't think he will find a way to stay in power.
I do think that this bill will mean we will start seeing the people in Cuba being tried.
I do also think the third point in the opening post is the scary one.

Straying away from the civility of the Geneva conventions is a sad state of affairs. Im sorry but this man brings shame to our country. We have always been honorable in times of war and we have always expected the same in return.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Straying away from the civility of the Geneva conventions is a sad state of affairs. Im sorry but this man brings shame to our country. We have always been honorable in times of war and we have always expected the same in return.

Fair enuff statment. But do you have a count of how many times we have been treated with honer, vs the times we have not?

There have been a number of compromises made with regard to this bill which arguably render it less threatening to civil liberties. (Note the use of the word "arguably," as I personally am still quite uncomfortable with this bill, however I am trying to be objective for the purposes of this post.)

For example, when taken together, this:

``(3) ALIEN.--The term `alien' means a person who is not
a citizen of the United States.

and this:

948c. Persons subject to military commissions
``Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by
military commission under this chapter.

...could be construed as meaning that only unlawful enemy combatants who are also designated as alien may be subjected to military commissions, and that while (as you will see below) there is now broad authority to declare almost anyone an unlawful enemy combatant, declaring someone an alien is less broad, and more specific. That could, at least potentially, be construed as protecting U.S. citizens from the impact of this bill.

However, there remain several elements which I consider potentially dangerous. Among those are the following:

`` 948a. Definitions
``In this chapter:
``(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.--(A) The term `unlaw-
ful enemy combatant' means--
``(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who
has purposefully and materially supported hostilities
against the United States or its co-belligerents who is
not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who
is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces);
or ``(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of
the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006,
has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant
by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another com-
petent tribunal established under the authority of the
President or the Secretary of Defense.
``(B) CO-BELLIGERENT.--In this paragraph, the term `co-
belligerent', with respect to the United States, means any State
or armed force joining and directly engaged with the United
States in hostilities or directly supporting hostilities against
a common enemy.

5. TREATY OBLIGATIONS NOT ESTABLISHING GROUNDS FOR CER-
TAIN CLAIMS.
(a) IN GENERAL.--No person may invoke the Geneva Conven-
tions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil
action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current
or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other
agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in
any court of the United States or its States or territories.

7. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.
(a) IN GENERAL.--Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code,
is amended by striking both the subsection (e) added by section
S. 3930--37

1005(e)(1) of Public Law 109148 (119 Stat. 2742) and the sub-
section (e) added by added by section 1405(e)(1) of Public Law
109163 (119 Stat. 3477) and inserting the following new subsection
(e):
``(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to
hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed
by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who
has been determined by the United States to have been properly
detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.
``(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section
1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801
note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear
or consider any other action against the United States or its agents
relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial,
or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained
by the United States and has been determined by the United
States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant
or is awaiting such determination.''.

Source: www.govtrack.us...

Taken together, the above elements of the bill seem to be granting fairly broad interpretive powers to commissions and tribunals, as well as to the President and Secretary of Defense, as pertains to who exactly may be considered an unlawful enemy combatant or co-belligerent, while also completely denying those declared to be such certain rights. This could be construed as creating the legal potential for U.S. citizens to have those rights removed under the right circumstances, since the interpretive power apparently granted is so broad.

I'm no legal expert. Can anyone with legal education or experience - objectively and without bias or political agenda - clarify whether the use of the term alien would protect U.S. citizens? If not, then I'm even more concerned than I already was.

Thus ends the objective portion of this post. I'd like to conclude it with the following unobjective, personal statement: I personally believe any human being, regardless of crimes committed or alleged, and regardless of nationality or citizenship, should have certain inalienable rights, and that among them should be the right to fair, efficient, transparent, and humane trials. I also believe that the standards of such trials should be equal for everyone, irrespective of the crimes alleged or committed. That isn't a popular view, but I feel I have the right to it. I respect those who disagree with this, as well as their views, and the processes through which they have arrived at those views.

Well it is a conspiracy site after all...

*Yawn*

Let it be known that EdSinger is Trolling this morning.

Doesnt this phase you in the least Ed?



(will wait for Ed's reply in 6 months)

We are at war with people that don't follow the geneva convention, so why should we.



"For those who still think there will be an election, there might be a mock one, but that's all.
This man will find the way to stay in power, which is exactly why he's coming up with all this. He's not going anywhere.

For those of you who live under the delussion that all will be fine, i got news for you. It wont."




Were did you get that idea from. During every war there were always elections and changes, why will it be dirrerant.

Bush and co are sticking two fingers up to international law,and to think there is many on this site who dont think the US is not turning into a dictatorship. Well its now got to the stage that if people did start to demonstrate and fight the goverment, you could all be locked up under all this legislation, America the country that used to be a democracy.

Just like any other bills that have been made by the Party in Power, they are opening the door for the next administration to have absolute powers.

Under the new laws enacted and passed the president has the right to strip any citizen of its status of citizenship, that would make them an alien anyway.

This will be every necessary when the time come that it can be applied to a targeted group of people in one instance.

The doors been open in our nation right now are dangerous and what many seems to forget is that is giving absolute powers to the government when truly We the people have the powers over the government as by the constitution.

So the bills are open to interpretation and that gives the ammunition to go around constitutional rights of citizens.

Our nation is heading on a very slim path in which we the people will be bound by laws that will be against our own rights as citizens, if you can hold that citizenship at all.

The bill makes sure that no state court can challenge the bill just like many states have been able to challenge the parts of the patriot act.

I wonder who is watching for us the citizens of this nation, and for our rights because it seems our elected politicians are going against us behind the hoax of war on terror




[edit on 17-10-2006 by marg6043]

"The Military Commissions Act will provide a fair trial in which the accused are presumed innocent, have access to an attorney and can hear all the evidence against them," Bush said, calling the commissions system lawful, fair and necessary.

The way I see it, it's an improvement.

You get a trial, innocent until proven guilty and you get all the evidence presented to you. What's so wrong with that?

Did you guys even read the article or did you just read "Bush passes terrorism Bill" and freaked out?

Improvement, but how, because first you will be tagged with the charge and under the specifications of that charge then the rest is applicable.

So if you are charge with enemy combatant then you are at the mercy of the military courts and with no rights.

Originally posted by marg6043
Improvement, but how, because first you will be tagged with the charge and under the specifications of that charge then the rest is applicable.

So if you are charge with enemy combatant then you are at the mercy of the military courts and with no rights.

The act applies ONLY to ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANTS

This was all covered weeks ago in THIS thread.

Friends, I implore you to READ the laws, acts, regulations that you are so quick to label facist and dictatorial.

Originally posted by steve99
We are at war with people that don't follow the geneva convention, so why should we.

Why should we?

Heres why we should:
This is a war of Ideology. Being as such you cannot compromise your ideology... the moment you do.. you have lost. even before a shot is fired. This IS the war of Ideology; the War on Terror. We have compromised our principles. In doing so we have become what we are fighting against.

We are going to become terrorists to get rid of the terrorists?

It sounds like the response a child gives when they are caught with their hands in a cookie jar: "well Judy did it too, mom" as if that is an excuse.... come on...
Just because "they" dont adhere to the Geneva Convention; it does not excuse us from abandoning it aswell.


I hang my head in shame when I hear my fellow countrymen/women talk in this manner. I saddens me because We are supposed to be more than this, this barbaric mentality and complete disregard for human life. I am not defending the terrorists of the world but I AM admonishing my countrymen who think like this.

That is why we cannot act as 'they'(the terrorists do)

This bill has been covered before(thanks darkbluesky...:up
After looking into it from the other threads in previous weeks; I still have some concerns for the possible interpretations that this may undergoe in the future. But only time will tell if this law is properly used or abused.

thanks for your time, and may mercy shine its countenence upon you,
TONE23

darkbluesky

Perhaps you are right at last for now, but that doesn't take away the fact that American citizens can be charge as enemy combatants and be stripped of any citizenship if necessary.

At least they will not apply this to Iraqis detainee, at least not for now.

Originally posted by marg6043
darkbluesky

Perhaps you are right at least for now.....

Marge - I see your point, and I too worry about the direction in which things are going. However, as soon as we stop talking about what is actually law today, we are speculating.

I take it you're speculating that.....

American citizens can be charge as enemy combatants and be stripped of any citizenship if necessary.

If this happens, I'll be in lock step with you and all the others that are worrying that the US is becoming a police state.

Originally posted by dgtempe


Let it be known that EdSinger is Trolling this morning.

Doesnt this phase you in the least Ed?

(will wait for Ed's reply in 6 months)

I just thought it was funny, don't have lots of time to troll.......

It grabbed me and I thought well its worth a reply.

How ya doing?