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Originally posted by fritz
Allies loosing it? I don't think so, old sport.
April 1940 - the Royal Air Force gave the mighty Luftwaffe a 'damned good thrashing' and won;
the United States Army Air Force [Group?] bombed Germany by day [B17's and Liberators] and the RAF by night, using much heavier bombers, such as the Lancasters and Stirlings.
The only problem that I could envisage, would be on the Eastern Front, where German Aces carved up the ariel battlefield at will.
Russia also had their own air aces and, as the war swung in Russia's favour, the once mighty Luftwaffe were hard pressed and often failled to get even an aircraft off the ground to support their hard pressed friends on the ground.
Incidentally, if that fatman Goering had not switched targets midway through the Battle of Britain and kept hammering the Chain Home 1 and 2 Sites, the airfields in the south and southwest, England, alone as she was, would have lost the Battle and probably the war.
Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Hitler may have gotten ahead of himself, but I think its safe to say that the Germans had the largest collection of competent military leaders ever in history. Just look at the names, Blomberg, Busch, Keitel, Rommel, von Rundstedt, the list goes on and on.
With that, you can't really explain Germany's defeat without mentioning the financial side of things. After a while, Germany simply couldn't borrow the money needed to keep its economy going. If you fight wars at the high level that the Germans were fighting at, you need to constantly be financing the war, but the money simply ran out.
It had nothing to do with stupidity. Too many times people make the mistake of saying that somebody was stupid and whatnot. But as incompetent as a leader may be, there is something called common sense and a simple acknowledgment of reality that may ultimately keep a man from making a certain decision. If you say the Germans were stupid, then you have to say our military leaders in Vietnam and Iraq were downright retarded, because the German military commanders were some of the best in modern history.
Originally posted by fritz
StellaX - my humble apologies for calling you an 'old chap'. It's just a phrase we Blue Jobs use from time to time, don't you know.
Actually Stella, the Royal Air Force did win the battle, because the Luftwaffe withdrew from the arial battlefield and the ground forces due to invade England dispersed.
Originally posted by StellarX
Originally posted by fritz
StellaX - my humble apologies for calling you an 'old chap'. It's just a phrase we Blue Jobs use from time to time, don't you know.
I meant it as a joke, really...
Actually Stella, the Royal Air Force did win the battle, because the Luftwaffe withdrew from the arial battlefield and the ground forces due to invade England dispersed.
Maybe it's splitting hairs but i what i tried to suggest is that the Luftwaffe had almost every superiority and that a better conducted campaign might very well have resulted in victory and invasion( the invasion is another possibly even more complex question) despite all the things that the RAF could have done to improve on the performance that despite all their mistakes were good enough.
Does that make my point of view any clearer or did you just want to restate your position?
Stellar
Originally posted by fritz
No, not really StellarX, so I'll give you an almost perfect sitrep for the battle:
I was stationed at RAF Biggin Hill for almost 5 years and during that time,
I did a lot of hobb-nobbing with ex fighter pilots who'd actually fought in the Battle of Britain and I also met Adolf Galland. This led me to research the subject much deeper and I got to see an aweful amount of stuff that was not available to the public at the time and I managed to obtain several photographs that I know are still not in the public domain. I was there from 1974-1979.
From what I was able to see, Goering and Hitler made two elemental mistakes during the battle:
1. The first, was to give up attacking the Chain Home 1 sites which turned out to be absolutely vital to the outcome of the battle and
2. [a] The 11 Group Sector Airfields of Debden, Hornchurch, Kenley, Northolt, North Weald and Tangmere were all but destroyed whilst Biggin-Hill was subjected to it's 3rd raid in 72 hours - a raid which all but lasted a week;
2. The 11 Group Major Fighter airfields at Detling, Croydon, Ford, Eastchurch, Hawkinge, Hendon and Gravesend, were all slightly damaged but the other fighter airfields of Gosport, Lee-on-Solent, Lympne, Westhampnett, Thorney Island, Stapleford and Rochford went almost unscathed apart from the odd hit and run raid by Messerschmidt Bf 109s.
3. Because things were so bad in 11 Group, the 3 main Sector airfields of 12 Group [Kirton-in-Lindsey, Coltishall and Duxford] as well as the fighter station at Tern Hill were seconded to 11 Group.
Then there was Hitler's reaction to the retaliatory raid on Berlin. He ordered Georing to flatten London - a political reaction to a military non-event - an order which Goering should have strenuously refused to carry out!
By caving in and attacking London, this allowed the RAF to regroup and recover in sufficient quantities that they managed to stem the tide and turn the tables on a heavily depleted Luftwaffe and force them to undertake night operations.
So you see StellarX, the Royal Air Force won and the Luftwaffe didn't!
“These worries would become critical as the Luftwaffe shifted its attention across the English Channel. At first, things went well for the Luftwaffe. After the beginning of the Battle of Britain on 13 August 1940, the Bf-109s were allowed to range freely and engage British fighters at will, using the fluid tactics devised by Moelders in Spain. The British were trained in traditional inflexible formation tactics that put them at a disadvantage, but the RAF quickly adopted the Luftwaffe tactics. “
“While the Bf-109s ranged freely, the job of protecting the bombers fell to the twin-engine Bf-110s. It didn't work. The Bf-110s were slaughtered, and so by early September the Bf-109s were ordered to operate as bomber escorts. Forced into a defensive posture, the Bf-109 was at a disadvantage relative to Hurricanes and Spitfires.”
“The limited range of the Bf-109 was also proving a liability, as it could not stay over the battle area for long before having to return home. After the bombings campaign was switched from British airfields to British cities, the RAF began to gain the upper hand. “
“The last action of the Battle of Britain was on 31 October 1940. The British had lost 631 Hurricanes, 403 Spitfires, and 115 Blenheim fighters, for a total of 1,149. The Luftwaffe lost 610 Bf-109s, along with 235 Bf-110s and 937 bombers, for a total of 1,782. Worse, many of the British pilots who had to bail out returned to battle the next day. Luftwaffe pilots who bailed out went to prisoner of war camps…”
Originally posted by fritz
DoBravery, the Battle of Britain had nothing to do with Shock and Awe and it had very little to do with Blitzkrieg.
Originally posted by fritz
Shock and Awe is a 21st century euphemism that cannot in any way, be likened to the tactics used by the Germans during the Second World War.
I do wonder DoBravery, if you are not referring to the tactics of the Russian forces from 1942 onwards, where they employed massive aerial, tube and rocket artillery bombardments to totally subdue the enemy.