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Mankind's Trace would Vanish within 200,000 years

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posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow
A question...

If you wanted to design a way to leave behind the best of human knowledge - in a form that would survive time, geophysical calamity, human ignorance and human hubris - what might you create?

Remember - languages disappear, writing skills are lost or change, symbols' meanings are lost, earthquakes and volcanoes destroy permanent structures, books and libraries don't have a hope in Hades of making it, and time and the elements erode even metal or rock. Only gold pages, for example, might survive the elements - but ignorant men steal gold and turn it into money, or jewellry.

So what kind of "archive" could carry the world's most important knowledge, and have a chance of surviving through the ages?

It would have to be simple, and something people would want to protect, but it would need to survive neglect too. Whatever it is, if it survived, new rulers would appear to 'modify' it, to make it their own, and reflect their own policies and politics. So it would have to somehow survive such ignorant "tinkering" too - and be designed with a core that cannot be corrupted.

Any ideas?






Old hippie Stewart Brand of the Whole Earth Catalog fame (one of the major influences on the way I view the world) has been working on a 10,000 year clock to be built into the side of a mountain and an associated library of all human knowledge.




posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by grover

Old hippie Stewart Brand of the Whole Earth Catalog fame (one of the major influences on the way I view the world) has been working on a 10,000 year clock to be built into the side of a mountain and an associated library of all human knowledge.



What if the mountain crumbles, and the book pages mildew and/or suffer an infestation of silverfish?

What if all the area's humans die from a plague? Then, 10,000 years later, a new bunch of survivors discover the mountain and library pristine, but they speak a totally new language, based on nothing previously written? ...They can't read the clock because their numerals are different, and their 'books' are completely different too - so they don't realize that the stacks of stinky rotting cellulose are not an alien food supply...

.....Whatever the solution may be, it needs to be incredibly compressed, understandable in a broad range of languages, accessible to many different cultural mindsets, and widely dispersed to ensure its survival.


Any more ideas?




posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
A question...

If you wanted to design a way to leave behind the best of human knowledge - in a form that would survive time, geophysical calamity, human ignorance and human hubris - what might you create?

So what kind of "archive" could carry the world's most important knowledge, and have a chance of surviving through the ages?

Any ideas?


Personally, I would leave multiple things. For one a satellite or satellites in stable orbit, for another, a religion designed to carry on and safeguard such knowledge, for another, modified animals and plants, a repository on the moon or an asteroid, etc... Redundancy would seem to offer the best hope of something surviving, especially if access to any of the repositories required a certain degree of knowledge before access could be attained. Of course each repository would of necessity have to contain educational materials designed to teach any new & different people (or aliens for that matter) how to use them. That should not be inordinately difficult as certain physical constants, laws, etc. are not likely to change and such things could be used as a foundation.

[edit on 17-10-2006 by Astronomer70]



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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I will try and find a link to the 10,000 year clock project.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 03:40 PM
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Here are some really cool links about the 10,000 year clock...the Rosetta stone project (accessed from the long now foundation site) is especially interesting.

www.longnow.org...
(Clock of the Long Now)

www.longnow.org...
(The Long Now Foundation)

en.wikipedia.org...
(Wikipedia article)

www.edge.org...
(Talk by Stewart Brand)



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Our mining for metal deposits, fossil fuels, etc. that take literally millions of years to form would certainly be noticed (the lack of them),

I was going to say the same thing. One day they will put a dip stick in the planet and find it is a few quarts too low.


Originally posted by soficrow
A question...

If you wanted to design a way to leave behind the best of human knowledge - in a form that would survive time, geophysical calamity, human ignorance and human hubris - what might you create?

I doubt that there would be a way to preserve the best of human knowledge (a lot of information) in a way that an entirely different race might find one day and try to decipher. That would be the same as trying to communicate with aliens. I think it would be more fun to put an I-pod in a big block of clear polyurethane, just to mess with them.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 05:04 PM
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'Survival' is a misnominer in this case, a time capsule cannot replace a civilisation. IF you succeeded, the effects would be outside your reach or control and totally unpredictable, which should of course be of some interest on a conspiracy board, especially considering topics like Aliens&UFOs and secret societies.

Has it ever occured to you that such an archive or alteration might mean seeding the doom of some innocous society existing aons from now? have you considered the remote possibility that many cryptic and unexplainable phenomena may very well be the direct result of such a 'survival' strategy employed by ancient civilisations, ie. that _we_ might as well be currently experiencing the worst case scenario of such a fubar'ed intervention.


The desire not to be forgotten at any cost, to influence the world even when you're long dead and gone smacks of vanity.

PS: If you're for ancient 'time capsules', i'd say planting your info in a redundant (allowing for errors) fashion into genomes, spread among lots of species would probably do the trick.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Long Lance

The desire not to be forgotten at any cost, to influence the world even when you're long dead and gone smacks of vanity.




imo, it already has been done. And to the betterment of mankind, imo.

The ancient Chinese book called the I Ching is credited to a mythological emperor named Fu Hsi. The I Ching is recognized not just as a divination manual, but also as a book of philosophy, a book of history, an ancient dictionary, an encyclopedia, a scientific treatise, and a mathematical model of the universe.




What kind of book is the Changes? A divination manual? A book of philosophy? A book of history? An ancient dictionary? An encyclopedia? A scientific treatise? A mathematical model of the universe? All these ideas have been suggested by commentators past or present.

Education About Asia

NOTE: This link lists a wealth of respected scholarly references.




Chinese tradition, and the Chinese mind, are capable of accepting the I Ching as all of these things, and more.

The Ching is based on binary numerals, with "images" assigned to the first eight tetragrams or "trigrams" (numbers 0-7). Very little text beyond the images is attached to the original work, although early directions explain how to expand the 'images' by doubling and creating an "addition table," ie., 4 squared, then 8 squared, and so on. The "yin-yang" symbol survives to show us that each number sequence can be illustrated as nesting (in pairs) inside the next, with the longer sequences seen as 'orbiting' around the shorter sequences.

imo - the I Ching is a multi-purpose archive: a beautifully elegant system designed to survive this planet's and mans' cataclysms, whether geophysical or political.

... and fyi grover - it also provides directions on building a "clock-calendar" - that being one way to interpret the sequence of yin-yang symbols nesting inside one another, with the largest cycle having 4096x4096 points.

The millenium clock project is very cool - and thanks for the links - but I do not think it can accomplish what the I Ching has done.





posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Our mining for metal deposits, fossil fuels, etc. that take literally millions of years to form would certainly be noticed (the lack of them).


Why is that? could it be that IF there were predicessors, why could they not have used something else as a fuel source?
I believe Cayce said something about crystals??



Originally posted by Byrd
I've been to dig sites that showed traces of human habitation that were 20,000 years old and I know that there are a number of sites that are much older than that. There's a homo erectus "manufacturing area" for flint cores that is about 200,000 years old. Cave of Hearths is that old or older:
www.arch.soton.ac.uk...

And we're talking about small tribelets of 50-100 people, living on the land with almost no technology other than fire and flint. Not modern people with city populations of millions and extremely durable garbage and manufactured materials (plastic fibers last a lot longer than animal hides do.)


What kind of things were these traces? Granted stone tools. As such, we would probbly leave behind a lot of plastic handles with rusted out cores.
I do believe that tumbled down hills of glass, crumbling concrete, rusted steel, and broken glass marking the demise of sky scrapers would likely be found.
And of course our landfills...
I have read fictional archeology books, wherein the discovery of the rufuse area was the mother load. I think thusly, we have left many many mothrloads behind.
Also, realize that there are areas that do not have much tectonic activity, that do not have usually severe natural disasters, that are relatively stable.
One reason I like living in my area is that we don't have earthquakes. OK, maybe we do, but we are considered a minor area. That DOES open us up for SOMETHING, and I have no way of finding out IF geologists have determined when the highest rated earthquake occured, and what the rating was.
We don't have hurricanes. OK, sometimes we get blow through from the next state over, but the whole of other states buffer us, and yeah, we get high winds and heavy rains, but nothing to get seriously scared of.
We don't have floods. OK, yeah, sometimes we get high water, but we haven't had anything as serious as the floods that hit the midwest. And most of those floods are in areas that are flood prone. Build 30 feet from a creek, and don't cry when the water is lapping up against your front door.
We on't have tornados. OK we have them, but they aren't very big ones. And they don't do a lot of damage.
We don't have wildfires. OK, yeah, we have them, but they are never very bad. Not like the western states.
And you know, the more I write this, the more I am thinking about moving.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 11:08 PM
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.

Wouldn't it be funny if humans, like Sisyphus, are doomed to keep climbing the same mountain over and over again till the end of time, never realizing that it all had been done before?

Because they were, we are too arrogant and proud to respect other ways and different learning?





posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 12:00 AM
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While we were discussing how to preserve human knowledge, the first thing to come to my mind right before the Golden Record, was the oral tradition, part of which, of course, is Greek Mythology and Sisyphus was a natural connection.

We should not dismiss the wisdom of the ancients, whether that wisdom comes to us by religion, mythology, or as philosophy, Western or Eastern.

I seem to remember making this point in another thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 12:46 AM
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Perhaps the best way to leave something is too, umm, I dunno utilze diamond manufactured capsules to store information? Sure books and minerals can break down in 200,000 years, but diamonds are forever, or at least several millions of years.

If we fashioned whole caverns coated in diamond we could store a treasure trove of information. Or simply begin storing images such as heiroglyps and pictographs with relevant messages inside of these diamond composite capsules?

I mean we already have several companies manufacturing diamonds, real actual diamonds on a commercial level. Gives us another fifty and our houses should be made of the damn #!



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 02:42 AM
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maybe there won't be anyone there to discover what we left behind? or maybe they just won't be interested. or, as someone pointed out, they might not understand what it was we left behind.

and what kind of information should we leave behind? information about how to kill each other, how to destroy the earth, one bit at a time, how to wage war, create famine and dispair and general unhappiness. what is it that we humans in our arrogance and egoism has done that has been so great?

I for one is happy that earth would recover so 'quickly' (compared to how long the planet has lived) from what we have done to it.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 09:13 AM
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DYepes -


Humanity's next round would just "mine" the diamonds and destroy the "records."




Originally posted by skywize
maybe there won't be anyone there to discover what we left behind? or maybe they just won't be interested. or, as someone pointed out, they might not understand what it was we left behind.




Most predictably - they won't understand what it was we left behind. ...So that's the biggest obstacle. Which is why "religion" and "mythology" are needed to ensure attention, at least.





and what kind of information should we leave behind? information about how to kill each other, how to destroy the earth, one bit at a time, how to wage war, create famine and dispair and general unhappiness. what is it that we humans in our arrogance and egoism has done that has been so great?




The main message of the I Ching for example, is that things change, always. That man must live in harmony with "heaven" and "earth." ...and of course, that the binary numerical system starts with the number zero.

All extremely important concepts, capable of illuminating many paths.





I for one is happy that earth would recover so 'quickly' (compared to how long the planet has lived) from what we have done to it.




Me too. But the main thing that comes to mind is that if the "recovery" period is so short, then conceivably such destruction has happened before. We might want to think about the possibility, and the implications.





posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 09:19 AM
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If we die out. Just let it go people. The Earth will recover in a way that is beneficial for itself. Civilisation and technology isn't the best thing that is around. Nature is.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795

If we die out.




Hmmm. My main assumption here is a major "set back" - not complete extinction.

Partly based on the premise that Hawking actually knows what he's talking about.







Just let it go people.




:shock:

Does this advice apply to ALL threads on ATS, or just select taboo topics?






The Earth will recover in a way that is beneficial for itself. Civilisation and technology isn't the best thing that is around. Nature is.





Yeah.


I agree. Which is why I posted the following information above:

The main message of the I Ching for example, is that things change, always. That man must live in harmony with "heaven" and "earth." ...and of course, that the binary numerical system starts with the number zero.

All extremely important concepts, capable of illuminating many paths.



IMO - 200,000 years is a relatively short period of time. And sometimes we can understand the future better if we consider the past.


.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow
Most predictably - they won't understand what it was we left behind. ...So that's the biggest obstacle. Which is why "religion" and "mythology" are needed to ensure attention, at least.

Everyone knows stories evolve as time goes on and after thousands of years would no longer resemble the original story.

Also, I would not say religion is the way to do it also. I think religion has done just as much to create problems and hold back civilization, as it has to advance it.

Just my 2 cents.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by Hal9000

Originally posted by soficrow
Most predictably - they won't understand what it was we left behind. ...So that's the biggest obstacle. Which is why "religion" and "mythology" are needed to ensure attention, at least.

Everyone knows stories evolve as time goes on and after thousands of years would no longer resemble the original story.

Also, I would not say religion is the way to do it also. I think religion has done just as much to create problems and hold back civilization, as it has to advance it.




You're right of course - but the same problem of change, reinterpretation, redirection, appropriation, and destruction applies to virtually every media. So a package is needed, each to reinforce the other. ...and hope.


As GradyPhilpot said:




While we were discussing how to preserve human knowledge, the first thing to come to my mind right before the Golden Record, was the oral tradition, part of which, of course, is Greek Mythology and Sisyphus was a natural connection.

We should not dismiss the wisdom of the ancients, whether that wisdom comes to us by religion, mythology, or as philosophy, Western or Eastern.




In the end, sometimes only the stories survive. And they are a puzzle indeed.





posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 04:16 AM
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soficrow

You're right of course - but the same problem of change, reinterpretation, redirection, appropriation, and destruction applies to virtually every media. So a package is needed, each to reinforce the other. ...and hope.



I would rather spend my time trying to stay alive as a cvilisation, if we can't do that, well, what makes you think we could bridge aeons? what makes you think ancient people managed to sucessfully do that ? what if these old civilisations were nearly as corrupt as ours ?

Let me use the vedic texts as an example, they surely seem to describe advanced technology, but who's to say the people who wrote them didn't receive a sanitized version ? don't get me wrong, different worldviews certainly help expanding our horizons, but that doesn't mean ancient text must be true, no matter how much they've been re-written and censored in the past, so don't get your hopes up too high.

If you found a file labelled 'most secret' you couldn't just trust it either, it might as well be a leaked version to fool everyone. McKinnon, (the 'super' hacker alledgedly gained access using a blank password...) the same applies to pretty much everything of course, even ancient material. remember that caste systems basically require secrecy and obfuscation to thrive, so outright disinformation should be expected!

[edit on 19-10-2006 by Long Lance]



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 06:33 AM
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Hmm. If one is looking for traces, well, that can be a challenge indeed, even in the mythology. If we are talking about rebuilding civilization, well, that can be lickety-split. Even with no prior knowledge, all things can be reborn from the point, or the Origin.

See, I think we have been here much longer than the timeline currently accepted. And I also think we come from a vast pool of humans spread throughout the galaxy, old even by the Sun's standard. But the memory has not lasted, being wiped out by natural disaster over and over again. Each ice age brought forth new opportunity to repeat the experiment. It is accepted fact (don't ask me to show it, it is already out there) that the human gene pool dropped to two thousand individuals about 70,000 years ago. That was in the middle of a major ice age. As long as there are a few of us left over we will spread to fill this world and others, barring ice ages.



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