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Pehaps you forget that applies only to US citizens in America. Other countries have their own rules. And if you follow the rules to the point so much then why Don't you folow the other countrie's rule that says you cannot disrepect the prohet.
Originally posted by jsobecky
And is it permissible to say the same thing to you if you disagree with our rules that it is OK to mock the prophet? If you don't like our free speech, just leave?
To truly grasp freedom of expression you must first undertand what tolerance is.
Originally posted by half_minded
This is basically what is happening. Firstly, the muslim countries are pissed about the US military bases in their countries. And on top of that US portrays all muslims as terrorists and then attacks the major OIL rich countries and gains control over them.
Now if these countries fight back, they are all labelled terrorists. And just to provoke them more, they insult the prophet who is the most respected figure in their entire history. Why should this be acceptable?
If I think you daughter is fat, does not give me the right to print cartoons of her in the newspaper showing her with a belly size of an elephant. Why? Because she might get offended.
Printing cartoons of the prophet with bomb on his head is just pure disrespect. Something that freedom of speech does not allow. And the cartoonist obviously knew that this would cause an uproar in the muslim community still he decided to go ahead with it just for kicks.
How do you know muslims only resort to violent actions???
People try to justify it by saying that we wud not be offended if you insulted Jesus. They howerver fail to understand that, unlike them, muslims respect prophet mohammad more than anything. Christians dont respect Jesus as much. Most of them dont even follow christianity so obviously they are not offended if someone insults Jesus.
Still, 'moderate' muslims do not resort to protests out in the streets, they do however support the ones that do.
You talk about north american muslims. What makes you think that muslims across the globe are any different? They also integrate into society and are good citizens. There are always exceptions. The exceptions are not limited to muslims.
Originally posted by half_minded
I already gave the analogy. Dont poke the sleeping dog and then complain later if he bites you.
Originally posted by half_minded
Originally posted by jsobecky
Perhaps you missed the part where I stated that the First Amendment gives people the right to say whatever they please, with very few exceptions. Death threats are not, and should not be, permitted.
Pehaps you forget that applies only to US citizens in America. Other countries have their own rules. And if you follow the rules to the point so much then why Don't you folow the other countrie's rule that says you cannot disrepect the prohet.
You are actively abusing freedom of speech because you country has given you the right, but you completely ignore the rule of the other country which requires to not disrespect the prophte.
Entire world does not run on US laws. People have freedom of speech but there are limitations. In muslim countries you cannot go around insulting the prophet because it will definitely cause negative reactions. So why cant you respect those laws?
Why is only the US amendment important and not the rules and beiefs of muslim nations?
Originally posted by jsobecky
Once again, death threats are not protected free speech. And you are minimizing the situation with the muslims. Of course they can question the person that insults the prophet. But not at knifepoint, or with the threat of bombs.
Again you are ranting about US laws while you completely ignore other nation's laws. How can you expect someone to respect your freedom of speech when you cannot respect the very belief of a million people across the globe.
No one is against freedom of speech. They are against people disrepecting the prophet. I ask the same question again.
If you belive so wholeheartedly that muslims are violent people then why wud you insult the prophet like that knowing full well what the reaction is gonna be like. Instead of trying to reform the violent people, you only give them more fuel and reasons to commit those violent acts.
Originally posted by jsobecky
What BS are you referring to? Offending and disrespecting the prophet? This is America; people are free to disrespect him all they want. All religious figures are disrespected by one group or another.
Freedom. That is a word that is very precious to us.
Danish newspaper is not in America. The reporter was not from America. He was not a US citizen. So how does everyone keep justifying his acts using US first amendment????
Originally posted by half_minded
True, but still, these days I would not trust anything about the government blindly. Unless I personally know the person who conducted the survey, I wud not take it into consideration as 'proof' of anything.
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I'm also not talking about unease about U.S. foreign policy in the middle east. Or attacks on Lebanese civilians by the Israelis in the recent war. Or US treatment of the Iraqi population.
Why wudnt u consider those as terrorist acts??
I wud not agree to any innocent person being killed. If someone kills in name of Allah then he is not a muslim. I wud want that person to be punished as severely as possible.
Infact, this question is pointless to me because I believe US government was responsible for 9/11 so they cud have an excuse to go to war for oil.
What religion allows its followers to commit terrorist acts??? I know Islam does not.
Anyone who kills is a murderer and nothing else. You cannot classify someone as muslim killer or non-muslim killer. Punish the murderer and stop harassing the innocent people.
Again you are ranting about US laws while you completely ignore other nation's laws.
Originally posted by half_minded
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Thanks for the explanation! I have no problems with the religious except when they start to infringe on my rights to live my life according to Western norms. Do you feel that post-religious people have the right to refuse the message of Islam? Can islam live alongside other religions and the non-religious?
When was the last time a muslim man came to your house and tried to control your life? Islam does require its followers to live in a certain way and do things in a certain way. Also requires them to give up things, like alcohol for example. It is also required for Islam followers to spread the message of Islam to everyone. However, Islam does not permit the spreading to be done with force.
Islam is based on ones personal beliefs. The Quran says that you have to believe in Allah yourself otherwise anything you do in name of Islam is pointless. Anything you do (prayer, fasting, pilgrimage) has to be done to please Allah and not to show-off, i.e., the intention of the person is important. So, if you force someone into the religion, they really are not truly muslim because they do not belive in Allah. So why wud a true muslim try to ever force his beliefs on anyone when he knows its pointless.
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
OK. But. A muslim in London has religious freedom. A Christian (or Buddhist) in Saudi or Egypt doesn't. I was under the impression 'Umma' meant 'muslim brotherhood', rather than 'human'.
Why go there then? Why live there then? Its a country ruled by muslim leaders and they have their rules. If you dont want to follow them then you should not live there. People always expect immigrants to follow the rules of their country, no matter what. So why question the rules of another country.
Originally posted by half_minded
All this muslim aggression started because of western countries. Western countries are illegally trying to occupy the muslim countries to gain control over resources.
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
It was an independent polling organisation. You Gov. You'll never know anyone personally who takes these polls because they are conducted by hundreds of people on carefully selected populations to avoid bias.
I never said 'proof', but I think that opinion polls carry a certain validity to opinions.
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
So let's disregard 9/11. 7/7 I think is clear cut, and certainly easier to argue. How can you attribute their motives to anything other than religion?
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I don't have time for any religion really - they all can be perverted and stop people thinking for themselves. However, as I said before, it's your right to pray to who you want as long as it doesn't affect me or my freedoms
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Well, 7/7 had a religious motivation and suicide tapes prerecorded, and it's obtuse to say otherwise. It doesn't make all muslims murderers or terrorists, but it certainly was a factor in that atrocity.
Originally posted by stanstheman
Again you are ranting about US laws while you completely ignore other nation's laws.
As a Christian citizen of the United States, who resides in the US I follow two sets of laws, first the laws of my country, second the laws of my faith, the ten commandments. Both are fairly explicit when it comes to the "no killing" thing! Let's say I travel to a Muslim country, I will follow the laws of such a country only to the point that they do not interfere with my Christian beliefs. Here's where we get into trouble.
Christianity does not specify killing on it's behalf, or killing in reaction to a slight against it, or killing non-believers. If the Muslim religion does then it goes against every other faith and law on the planet. The majority of the people will not recognize the validity of such a religion. A conversion made at the point of a knife or after being threatened is not a true conversion and weakens the fabric of Islam. Extremist Muslims are trying to convert the rest of the world in this way and moderate Muslims should be at the very least outraged by the damage done to their religion.
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Never personally. *But*, in supporting censorshp of the press in any way that 'offends the prophet', in a society where the majority of people are not religious (nor muslim) I find anti-democratic. It sounds like a cracked record, but I respect your right to disagree with me, but not your right to suppress opinions that disagree with your point of view or religion.
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Forcing conversion is not the same as forcing belief. I have no problem with your relgious practices. But it comes to my first paragraph. You don't have the right to stop people expressing opinions you find offensive.
Salman Rushdie would be a case in point. Satanic Verses didn't deserve a fatwah calling for his death, even if it was found offensive!
Originally posted by TaupeDragon
HOWEVER - if you say 'immmigrants have to follow the rules', then ERGO.......Danish cartoonists and Salman Rushdie (and the Pope) are off the hook!
originally posted by half-minded
I am not in the US so you dont have to ask me to leave.
I study in US and I have a lot of friends from India of different religion.
Originally posted by half_minded
I already answered the question about why non-muslims are not allowed in mecca.
As I said earlier, please read the posts before you ask me the same questions that have already been answered.
You dont expect people to follow rules of US who do not live in US. Yet you expect them to respect your freedom of speech when you cannot respect their belief towards the prophet. Double Standards.
Point of the thread is to show that a few certain violent muslims who dont know the firs thing about Islam are commiting stupid acts and its the world's millions of muslims who have to face the consequences and criticism just because they are of the same faith.
I post because this is my means of 'standing up' against evil doers like Bush and Osama. I cannot go out and kill Osama, I cannot go out and tell the radicals to stop being radicals, they might end up killing me.
I already answered your questions in my original post. Please read before posting.