Try and argue this. I dare ya!

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Be fare here hey..
Criticism of christianity and jesus is common in the finatical muslim sense.
They do it MORE than we criticise mohhamed.

Yet... they dont consider what there doing as blasphemous?
Yet what we are doing is?

How about Jews.. and the amount of @#$% they give there religion.

why is it wrong for us to criticise the muslim faith..
yet they can do it openly?

A healthy crticism is one thing, but posting the most repsectable figure of muslim faith with a bomb on his head is another issue.

I wouldn't mind anyone being critical of Islam, but if someone just comes over to my house to insult the prophet then I know that, that person is not looking for a healthy argument or a civilized debate. He wants to fight so why shud i sit back and take it and why not give the fight back.

Where is the line between a sensible debate and total disregard for the respect of faith???

Originally posted by kylecoare
I dont have a problem with Muslims personally, but they tend to be hot headed....

That is very untrue. Have you seen american people??? They get pissed at the slightest things.

I worked at a gas station once and it was my first day. One of the gas pumps stopped working. This one customer got so pissed abt it that he threw the handle to the ground and came into the store. I put him on a different pump but he didnt hear me clearly because he was screaming and went to the wrong pump. This guy was literally standing there screaming his head off, circling his car. Infact, the only thing that stopped him from jumping on me and starting a fist fight was probably the fear of cops. 9 out of 10 customers at the store were extremely rude people. Most of them dont even say thank you.

I can easily use that to base my assumptions that all americans are hot headed. Wouldn't really prove anything.

Originally posted by kylecoare
We had a t shirt released in England which had "JESUS IS A CU*T" emblazoned over the front of it, well none of us frettend to behead anyone or even chop off their hands we mostly just tutted loudly, so what gives Muslims the right to threaten people in a non muslim country with death for something they find offensive, if you dont like british culture then live somewhere else

Was it the muslims who created that T-Shirt. Did you see muslims walking around wearing it?

Muslims tend to mind their own business and dont like it when they are provoked. Just because there is a T-shirt out which insults Jesus does not mean you can print cartoons of prophet mohammad.

Originally posted by half_minded

A healthy crticism is one thing, but posting the most repsectable figure of muslim faith with a bomb on his head is another issue.

Healthy criticism being...what, exactly? "I love Islam, but I don't love beating my wife?"

I can't tell you how many times I've seen distorted crucifixes, upside-down crucifixes, crucifixes with 2Pac instead of Christ on them, the Christian fish symbol with legs and "Darwin" written inside it... and none of it angers me. Some of it is funny and makes me laugh, some of it is just really wierd makes me a little worried, but I don't ever get the urge to begin killing people over it.

The muslim bomb comic isn't as much a direct insult as it is a stereotype. Think about that.

I wouldn't mind anyone being critical of Islam, but if someone just comes over to my house to insult the prophet then I know that, that person is not looking for a healthy argument or a civilized debate. He wants to fight so why shud i sit back and take it and why not give the fight back.

If someone goes to your house and insults Islam, the amount of non-violent yet satisfying responses at your disposal are limited only to your imagination. Call the cops and report his for harassment. Give him the finger. Cuss him out. Invite him to a religious debate. Just close the door. Or any combination thereof.

All of these things are legal, and none involve rioting en masse, burning flags or effigies of political/spiritual leaders, or killing nuns.

Further, insults to your prophet have not been brought to your door. The Pope was quoting a book in reference to ancient history between Muslims and others at a Catholic gathering.

Where is the line between a sensible debate and total disregard for the respect of faith???

That depends. Where's the line between being offended and being homicidal?

[edit on 16-10-2006 by half_minded]

Originally posted by Astygia
Healthy criticism being...what, exactly? "I love Islam, but I don't love beating my wife?"

I can't tell you how many times I've seen distorted crucifixes, upside-down crucifixes, crucifixes with 2Pac instead of Christ on them, the Christian fish symbol with legs and "Darwin" written inside it... and none of it angers me. Some of it is funny and makes me laugh, some of it is just really wierd makes me a little worried, but I don't ever get the urge to begin killing people over it.

The muslim bomb comic isn't as much a direct insult as it is a stereotype. Think about that.

If you dont like Islam then stay away from it. Stay away from muslims if you think they are all homicidal. Stereotyping or insulting is not the right way to criticize anyone. First you do something that you know would anger millions of people and possibly cause the 'violent' ones to counter-act then you cry about it.

Distorted crucifixes, etc. are not done by muslims only. And religious conflict always has 2 guilty parties. You cannot only look at one side and ignore the other.

Originally posted by Astygia
If someone goes to your house and insults Islam, the amount of non-violent yet satisfying responses at your disposal are limited only to your imagination. Call the cops and report his for harassment. Give him the finger. Cuss him out. Invite him to a religious debate. Just close the door. Or any combination thereof.

All of these things are legal, and none involve rioting en masse, burning flags or effigies of political/spiritual leaders, or killing nuns.

I can come to your house with a baseball bat and start beating the # out of your son. Would you just stand and watch just because you dont want to stoop down to my level of violence??

There is a difference between violence and fighting back.

I dont condone any violent acts but if you insult the prophet then you should fully expect for people to react. Any sensible person can tell you that, Out of millions of people, a couple hundred are bound to react violently.

Originally posted by Astygia
That depends. Where's the line between being offended and being homicidal?

That line was crossed on both sides. And the muslims were not the first to cross the line.

[edit on 16-10-2006 by half_minded]

Originally posted by Astygia
You're right, I don't understand. And I don't care. Regardless of who you worship, you should be able to exorcise some self-control.

Are you saying that Muslims cannot control themselves when their prophet is insulted?

You make it sound like all the muslims are violent aggressive people. As I said earlier, out of millions of people, some are bound to be offended to the point that they woudl resort to violent acts. So, why provoke them?

My question is, why insult the prophet in the first place? Wat was the purpose?

Originally posted by Astygia
Cute analogy...were any of the people the Muslims killed in "protest" over the Pope's comment "poking the dog"?

Or again, is it just asking too much for Muslims to have self-control? Understanding goes both ways. Quit making excuses.

Understanding goes both ways yet you support the reporter who posted the disrepectful cartoons. No one is putting him under question

Originally posted by half_minded
If you dont like Islam then stay away from it. Stay away from muslims if you think they are all homicidal. Stereotyping or insulting is not the right way to criticize anyone. First you do something that you know would anger millions of people and possibly cause the 'violent' ones to counter-act then you cry about it.

I didn't say I think all Muslims are homicidal, did you not read?

But your advice goes both ways; if Muslims don't like _____, stay away from it.

Distorted crucifixes, etc. are not done by muslims only. And religious conflict always has 2 guilty parties. You cannot only look at one side and ignore the other.

I never implied that Muslims were guilty of ANY of those things.

Distorted Crux= Pagan
Upside-down= Satanist
2Pac= no freaking clue, rap fans I guess
Fish= Athiests or whatev

The point is, seeing these things does not motivate me to kill people. If I were to kill someone over this, I would be a murderer and you would probably laugh at my stupidity.

So why is it unrealistic to expect the same of others?

half-minded

Originally posted by Astygia
If someone goes to your house and insults Islam, the amount of non-violent yet satisfying responses at your disposal are limited only to your imagination. Call the cops and report his for harassment. Give him the finger. Cuss him out. Invite him to a religious debate. Just close the door. Or any combination thereof.

All of these things are legal, and none involve rioting en masse, burning flags or effigies of political/spiritual leaders, or killing nuns.

I can come to your house with a baseball bat and start beating the # out of your son. Would you just stand and watch just because you dont want to stoop down to my level of violence??

There is a difference between violence and fighting back.

There's a huge difference between intiating violence and self-defense...and there's an even bigger difference between my example of rudeness and your example of assault.

Please show me the hordes of Popes beating down your door with a bat so they can defame your religion and smack your kids.

I dont condone any violent acts but if you insult the prophet then you should fully expect for people to react. Any sensible person can tell you that, Out of millions of people, a couple hundred are bound to react violently.

Yeah, if you directly insulted someone you should expect a reaction. But sensible people wouldn't say it's okay for you to get beheaded for it. Or shot. Or burnt in effigy. Or blown up.

Or would they?

half-minded

Originally posted by Astygia
That depends. Where's the line between being offended and being homicidal?

That line was crossed on both sides. And the muslims were not the first to cross the line.

Really? When was the last time Christians, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Satanists, or Atheists, et cetera, rioted worldwide and killed people over a cartoon or a quote taken out of context?

[edit on 16-10-2006 by Astygia]

Originally posted by sbob
Why is the muslim religion able to bulid a really large mosque in the center of Roman Catholic religon. Rome.

Yet a Cathedral would not be allowed to be built in Mecca?

I would like to get a good answer on that one. Please answer. please please answer.......

A cathedral is pointless in Mecca because there would be no catholics there. Infact there wud be no non-muslims at all because non-muslims cannot enter mecca or medina.

Any muslim can tell you how freaking crowded these 2 cities are. They are filled with muslim people. Millions of people go there every year. Infact, since a decade or so, they have even stopped allowing personal cars in the cities because there is no space.

If they allowed non-muslims to enter there, the place would be chaos. There wud be so many journalists and photographers, so many tourists. It just wont be possible to accomodate all these people.

Have seen the photos? Do you see the amount of people walking arnd? And that just a random day. Cancel out ramadan, hajj, and umra periods when the crowd get bigger by several times.

Originally posted by sbob
And why can't a person wear a crucifix or bring a bible into some muslim countries and yet there are prayer rooms in schools around me for muslims.

Who is accomadating other view points?

There are many good people in the world in all religons, but some accept other view points more than others.

People always talk about accepting rules of the country then why cant you accept the rules of these countries??? If you dont like the rules then just leave.

How about you guys slow down a bit. I cannot argue with so many people at the same time. I am getting way too many questions and long posts that I have to reply to alone.

Please slow down a little.......

Said that on the page before :-)

Please, this is a very good thread, I like it very much, it is very deep thought. It shouldn't be about who first did what, who is guilty, who is right and who is wrong and who is even wronger than anyone else. It should be about understanding why who does and thinks what, and I think half_minded is doing a great job explaining the Islam. Please don't force him to defend UBL, he never intended to. He's rectifying wrong accusations against Islam, without ever attacking "infidels", only criticizing fanatic radicals of both sides. Kudos for that.

IIRC, Jesus (Peace be with him) his among the greater prophets according to Islam, so insulting Jesus is almost as bad for Muslims as insulting Mohammed. And, please, those riots about the Danish cartoons and the pope's comments were staged. I mean, where did they get all those Danish and German flags they burned from? I went through Wuppertal and tried to find a Danish flag... guess what...

We don't know how pictures of these riots came to happen... someone told them the infidels have insulted the prophet (three months later) and of course they were upset. They don't know and don't care what really happened, nor would anyone bother to re-read Ratzingers speech. But, playing the devil's advocate: who of you has a Q'ran in his personal library?

BTW: Yes, Satanists have burned churches in Norway. Google Burzum.

Originally posted by half_minded
Whr did these two get their education? Where were they born, raised. What was their childhood like? What jobs did they have? Who was their famnily?
Where is the proof that indeed it was these two who attacked on 9/11?
Prove to me other than the 'official story'.

I don't know why it matters where they were educated. If you are interested, you can do the research. I was just disproving your statement that acts of terrorism were only committed by the poor and the uneducated. That is patently false.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The First Amendment does not guarantee that you will not be offended, or that someone will not disrespect you. It gives people the right to say whatever they want, with very few exceptions. Offensive and disrespectful statements are not excluded.

That is one of the strengths of the First Amendment.

So, when a muslim protestor is out with a sign that says 'Death to America', why is it not okay for him to do that. How is he siding with the terrorists then? He is expressing his opinion of killing you which is freedom of speech so why do people criticize him then?

Perhaps you missed the part where I stated that the First Amendment gives people the right to say whatever they please, with very few exceptions. Death threats are not, and should not be, permitted.

Its not the strength of the first amendment.

It certainly is one of the strengths of the First Amendment. Speech that is offensive is covered just as much as speech that is favored.

And btw, the first amendment is for your US citizens only. Does not apply to the world.

Do you mean that the entire world does not guarantee free speech? Or that foreigners are not covered under our constitution when they are in our country?

If a 14 yr old girl can be pulled out of class to be questioned by the secret service for having a website threatening the president then why cant the muslims question the person insulting the prophet respected by million of people.

Once again, death threats are not protected free speech. And you are minimizing the situation with the muslims. Of course they can question the person that insults the prophet. But not at knifepoint, or with the threat of bombs.

Stop justifying someones BS with freedom of speech.

What BS are you referring to? Offending and disrespecting the prophet? This is America; people are free to disrespect him all they want. All religious figures are disrespected by one group or another.

Freedom. That is a word that is very precious to us.

Originally posted by Akareyon
IIRC, Jesus (Peace be with him) his among the greater prophets according to Islam, so insulting Jesus is almost as bad for Muslims as insulting Mohammed. And, please, those riots about the Danish cartoons and the pope's comments were staged. I mean, where did they get all those Danish and German flags they burned from? I went through Wuppertal and tried to find a Danish flag... guess what...

Of course, it all must be staged.

They don't know and don't care what really happened, nor would anyone bother to re-read Ratzingers speech.

Of course they won't, then they'd have to admit being caught up in illogical furor.

But, playing the devil's advocate: who of you has a Q'ran in his personal library?

Me, for one.

BTW: Yes, Satanists have burned churches in Norway. Google Burzum.

Satanists burning churches in Norway are not Satanists rioting all over the world and even killing people over a cartoon or quote taken out of context.

Insulting and disrespecting a religious figure is in bad taste. It is just plain a waste of time. But it is not illegal.

Should the tent be broadened to include politicians? Should they not be disrespected, if conditions warrant it? How about the common man? Should insulting him be prohibited?

The difference betweeen here and muslim countries is that our constitution is not founded to protect a particular religion. Our political leaders do not issue orders to massacre non-believers. Nations that are theocracies will always breed terrorists, moreso than democratic nations with freedom of expression.

in fact iraq had no to very little links with al-qaeda, hussein and ben laden hated each other, but now the county is infested with fundamentalists and international terrorism is stronger than before.

good game bush

I do not think everyone believes moderate Muslims are not speaking out against extremists. I know Muslims who have spoken out and many Muslims are serving in the United States military.

Moderate Muslims speaking out does not seem to be a big story in the mainstream press.

I am offended at half_minded's comment about Jesus not being viewed as important or significant to Christians as Mohammed is viewed by Muslims. These kind of comments are offensive, insensitive and simply wrong. Such a view shows extreme bias. However, I would fight for half_minded's right to hold such a view and to articulate it.

I am personally offended if Mohammed is depicted in a cartoon with a bomb on his head. I would be offended, and am, when Jesus, the Pope, or any other religions are ridiculed by Muslims. However, to allow that offense to convince me to kill somebody or physically attack somebody would be uncivilized and, perhaps, insane.

I've met people who seem to lump all Muslims together with the extreme terrorist types. On the other hand, I've met people who do not seem to allow terrorists to negatively color their view of all Muslims. It is painting with an extremely broad brush to conclude that "all" Americans, for example, have a negative opinion of "all" Muslims. To paint such a picture would prove one guilty of the very argument one is trying to make.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't know why it matters where they were educated. If you are interested, you can do the research. I was just disproving your statement that acts of terrorism were only committed by the poor and the uneducated. That is patently false.

Education is very important in determining people's charctersitics. Poorly educated people are more bound to be influenced by the leaders who exploit them. I never said ONLY poor and educated people do it.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Perhaps you missed the part where I stated that the First Amendment gives people the right to say whatever they please, with very few exceptions. Death threats are not, and should not be, permitted.

Pehaps you forget that applies only to US citizens in America. Other countries have their own rules. And if you follow the rules to the point so much then why Don't you folow the other countrie's rule that says you cannot disrepect the prohet.

You are actively abusing freedom of speech because you country has given you the right, but you completely ignore the rule of the other country which requires to not disrespect the prophte.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Do you mean that the entire world does not guarantee free speech? Or that foreigners are not covered under our constitution when they are in our country?

Entire world does not run on US laws. People have freedom of speech but there are limitations. In muslim countries you cannot go around insulting the prophet because it will definitely cause negative reactions. So why cant you respect those laws?
Why is only the US amendment important and not the rules and beiefs of muslim nations?

Originally posted by jsobecky
Once again, death threats are not protected free speech. And you are minimizing the situation with the muslims. Of course they can question the person that insults the prophet. But not at knifepoint, or with the threat of bombs.

Again you are ranting about US laws while you completely ignore other nation's laws. How can you expect someone to respect your freedom of speech when you cannot respect the very belief of a million people across the globe.

No one is against freedom of speech. They are against people disrepecting the prophet. I ask the same question again.

If you belive so wholeheartedly that muslims are violent people then why wud you insult the prophet like that knowing full well what the reaction is gonna be like. Instead of trying to reform the violent people, you only give them more fuel and reasons to commit those violent acts.

I dont blame the disease, I blame the poeple creatin the disease.

Originally posted by jsobecky
What BS are you referring to? Offending and disrespecting the prophet? This is America; people are free to disrespect him all they want. All religious figures are disrespected by one group or another.

Freedom. That is a word that is very precious to us.

Danish newspaper is not in America. The reporter was not from America. He was not a US citizen. So how does everyone keep justifying his acts using US first amendment????

Originally posted by Blarney
I do not think everyone believes moderate Muslims are not speaking out against extremists. I know Muslims who have spoken out and many Muslims are serving in the United States military.

Moderate Muslims speaking out does not seem to be a big story in the mainstream press.

This was the whole point of the thread but people ended up completing side tracking from it.

Originally posted by Blarney
I am offended at half_minded's comment about Jesus not being viewed as important or significant to Christians as Mohammed is viewed by Muslims. These kind of comments are offensive, insensitive and simply wrong. Such a view shows extreme bias. However, I would fight for half_minded's right to hold such a view and to articulate it.

I did not mean to offend. And I apologize.

Muslims also expressed that they were offended by disrespect to Prophet Muhammad. Only difference is, people did not apologize for it. Infact, people justify it by saying that it is freedom of speech.

Such views against the prophet also show extreme bias and are insensitive and wrong. You pointed that out to me, yet I dont see anyone bashing you. But if I express the same thing, people come here posting extremely long posts and trying to justify everything with freedom of speech.

There would have been no problem if the reporter hadnt disrespected. And even if he did then he should have seen that his actions are causing the violent people to react in an aggressive manner and causing loss of lives. Even then he was too arrogant to apologize.

No one wants to be the bigger man these days, because ego stand in the way.

Why create a problem if you cant deal with it?

Originally posted by Blarney
I am personally offended if Mohammed is depicted in a cartoon with a bomb on his head. I would be offended, and am, when Jesus, the Pope, or any other religions are ridiculed by Muslims. However, to allow that offense to convince me to kill somebody or physically attack somebody would be uncivilized and, perhaps, insane.

I've met people who seem to lump all Muslims together with the extreme terrorist types. On the other hand, I've met people who do not seem to allow terrorists to negatively color their view of all Muslims. It is painting with an extremely broad brush to conclude that "all" Americans, for example, have a negative opinion of "all" Muslims. To paint such a picture would prove one guilty of the very argument one is trying to make.

Again what I have been trying to say. Media only shows the 'exciting' news to get people attention. They always show the extremists and never the moderates which makes people believe that extremists are greater in number and that the moderates are not concerned with their acts.

Uptil now no one has actually replied to my original post with a contrary answer.

No one argued my points in my original post.

My questions was to all the ppl who criticize the moderates constantly.

Where are your answers to those arguments I have placed in the original post?

I do not accuse ALL americans of not liking muslims.

I only talk to the people who do have one sided view of muslims.

I sometimes paint a broad picture to show to the other side that , thats what they r doing too.

originally posted by half-minded
People always talk about accepting rules of the country then why cant you accept the rules of these countries??? If you dont like the rules then just leave.

And is it permissible to say the same thing to you if you disagree with our rules that it is OK to mock the prophet? If you don't like our free speech, just leave?

To truly grasp freedom of expression you must first undertand what tolerance is.